• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

ACLU Leader Says Voter ID Law Akin to Jim Crow-Era Law

MoSurveyor said:
I assume their SS cards are/were sufficient but I can't say that as fact, I haven't gotten there, yet. ;) I do know a friend that worked for SSA for decades, I'll write her an e-mail and ask. It may take a couple of days for a response, or it could be this afternoon - depends on what she's got going on.

I did find this, though: Apply Online for Retirement Benefits: Boldly Go Online to Retire - It's So Easy
Click to expand...
Having attained seasoned citizen status myself, I can tell you that the SS card is not enough. Moreover, SS cards used to be issued when the individual started working for wages, not when he/she was born, so there is no proof of age there.
 
AdamT said:
I've had the same SS card since I was at least in elemenatry school. I literally can't remember when or how I got it.
Click to expand...

Your mother got it for you, with a copy of your birth certificate in hand.

That's how I got mine, and it was the same process for my three kids.
 
AdamT said:
Isn't it kind of ironic -- and doesn't it make this whole thing rather absurd -- that you can get a photo ID without having a photo ID?
Click to expand...
Actually no it is neither ironic nor absurd. Nice that you want to keep things light, but of course nobody is born with a wet photo ID in hand dripping with placenta. A few years ago a home near mine burned and it took down my home with it too. Fortunately I had good insurance and came through the ordeal fairly well. One thing I did lose was all my ID's from state DL and ID to SS card birth certificate, etc. I had to go to some length to get them all replaced, at that time I had to drive to my states capital (could have taken to bus too) to get a copy of my "state" birth certificate, in order to get a new SS card and IDs. It was a minor inconvenience but surmountable none the less, which is why I have little sympathy for the rather silly arguments about people not being able to get an ID. It is inexpensive and it is not terribly difficult to do, if you are who you say you are and have a right to have those things in the first place.

MoSurveyor said:
I assume their SS cards are/were sufficient but I can't say that as fact, I haven't gotten there, yet. ;) I do know a friend that worked for SSA for decades, I'll write her an e-mail and ask. It may take a couple of days for a response, or it could be this afternoon - depends on what she's got going on.

I did find this, though: Apply Online for Retirement Benefits: Boldly Go Online to Retire - It's So Easy
Click to expand...
The SS administration requires at least a state certified birth certificate to get a new copy of your SS card issued, as I learned first hand a few years back.
 
Gie said:
Nice that you want to keep things light, but of course nobody is born with a wet photo ID in hand dripping with placenta.
Click to expand...

LOL! and a good thing, too. Few adults are recognizable from a photo taken at birth.
 
Gie said:
Actually no it is neither ironic nor absurd. Nice that you want to keep things light, but of course nobody is born with a wet photo ID in hand dripping with placenta. A few years ago a home near mine burned and it took down my home with it too. Fortunately I had good insurance and came through the ordeal fairly well. One thing I did lose was all my ID's from state DL and ID to SS card birth certificate, etc. I had to go to some length to get them all replaced, at that time I had to drive to my states capital (could have taken to bus too) to get a copy of my "state" birth certificate, in order to get a new SS card and IDs. It was a minor inconvenience but surmountable none the less, which is why I have little sympathy for the rather silly arguments about people not being able to get an ID. It is inexpensive and it is not terribly difficult to do, if you are who you say you are and have a right to have those things in the first place.


The SS administration requires at least a state certified birth certificate to get a new copy of your SS card issued, as I learned first hand a few years back.
Click to expand...

I think it would have been more than a minor inconvenience if, say, you lived 500 miles from the state capital and were old, infirm, didn't own a car, and could ill afford to take a long bus trip and pay for a hotel to stay overnight in the state capital.
 
AdamT said:
I think it would have been more than a minor inconvenience if, say, you lived 500 miles from the state capital and were old, infirm, didn't own a car, and could ill afford to take a long bus trip and pay for a hotel to stay overnight in the state capital.
Click to expand...

And yet that is still the process.

[quote="ss.gov]
We can accept only certain documents as proof of U.S. citizenship. These include a U.S. birth certificate, U.S. consular report of birth, U.S. passport, Certificate of Naturalization or Certificate of Citizenship.

Identity

We can accept only certain documents as proof of identity. An acceptable document must be current (not expired) and show your name, identifying information (date of birth or age) and preferably a recent photograph. For example, as proof of identity Social Security must see your:

U.S. driver’s license;
State-issued nondriver identification card; or
U.S. passport.

If you do not have one of these specific documents or you cannot get a replacement for one of them within 10 days, we will ask to see other documents, including:

Employee ID card;
School ID card;
Health insurance card (not a Medicare card); or
U.S. military ID card.
[/quote]
 
AdamT said:
I think it would have been more than a minor inconvenience if, say, you lived 500 miles from the state capital and were old, infirm, didn't own a car, and could ill afford to take a long bus trip and pay for a hotel to stay overnight in the state capital.
Click to expand...
Which is the reason I now keep my bc and other documents in a fire proof safe, to avoid the inconvenience. Of course the voting rate of the "old infirm ill" is by definition almost non existent, so that argument is one of those silly ones I was talking about. Yet even if one is old infirm and ill and needing a team of doctors nurses and life sustaining transport to get to the voting precinct but does not have photo ID, there are "hardship" exceptions that make it possible to get one. So apparently what the argument you are making comes down to is, it is a inconvenience. Lesson #1: Life is tough not fair.
 
Last edited:
Dittohead not! said:
LOL! and a good thing, too. Few adults are recognizable from a photo taken at birth.
Click to expand...

Not if they live long enough, quite often they begin to just resemble that old photo plus wrinkles and age spots!
 
Gie said:
Which is the reason I now keep my bc and other documents in a fire proof safe, to avoid the inconvenience. Of course the voting rate of the "old infirm ill" is by definition almost non existent, so that argument is one of those silly ones I was talking about. Yet even if one is old infirm and ill and needing a team of doctors nurses and life sustaining transport to get to the voting precinct but does not have photo ID, there are "hardship" exceptions that make it possible to get one. So apparently what the argument you are making comes down to is, it is a inconvenience. Lesson #1: Life is tough not fair.
Click to expand...

Actually, the voting rate among the elderly is the highest of any age group. Pollster.com - Political Surveys and Election Polls, Trends, Charts and Analysis

But you could substitute anyone who is poor, doesn't own a car, and lives a good ways from the capital.

Regardless, you can't just look at the burden that's being imposed in isolation. You have to look at the degree of the burden RELATIVE TO the degree of the problem that it's being imposed to address. And since there is absolutely no indication that voter impersonation is a real problem, there is no justification for an even modest inconvenience.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Having attained seasoned citizen status myself, I can tell you that the SS card is not enough. Moreover, SS cards used to be issued when the individual started working for wages, not when he/she was born, so there is no proof of age there.
Click to expand...
I got mine when I started working, too. No proof of anything IIRC. I think I used my HS library card or something. So, you had to show your BC to the SSA? What's with the on-line application then?

Gie said:
The SS administration requires at least a state certified birth certificate to get a new copy of your SS card issued, as I learned first hand a few years back.
Click to expand...
Never needed a replacement. I carried my card for a few years then put it in a box along with some other old stuff I knew I'd keep. I haven't seen my SS card for years but I've still got it - probably in the fire box with our insurance policies and car titles.
 
AdamT said:
Actually, the voting rate among the elderly is the highest of any age group. Pollster.com - Political Surveys and Election Polls, Trends, Charts and Analysis

But you could substitute anyone who is poor, doesn't own a car, and lives a good ways from the capital.

Regardless, you can't just look at the burden that's being imposed in isolation. You have to look at the degree of the burden RELATIVE TO the degree of the problem that it's being imposed to address. And since there is absolutely no indication that voter impersonation is a real problem, there is no justification for an even modest inconvenience.
Click to expand...
STOP RIGHT THERE sir. I did. And I did not proceed a word further than your facetious link. I say facetious because it has nothing to do with what I said and is not germane.

I made a comment about the specific "old infirm ill" that you are worried about won't be able to get a photo ID and you are coming back to me with the redundant well known fact that elderly people vote the most? Why you can't follow the conversation? Instead of digging in your heels and doubling down on your inconvenience argument, address the comments I made. Don't ignore them, you might not care to admit that states have "hardship" laws but it is going to get called out in a forum like this.

Also, we already have one Boo Radley character that predicates just about all his arguments with "you can't" and "you have to" and it is trite and not terribly effective. Obvious as all hell too with no place in any kind of "debate" even at the primary school level. That said, you just can't "quote" my comments and then ignore them while just doubling down on your stance while posting links to data that has nothing to do with what was being discussed. Well you can do that, go the hack route if you want, but I don't recommend it and I will call you out on it.
 
Last edited:
Gie said:
I made a comment about the specific "old infirm ill" that you are worried about won't be able to get a photo ID and you are coming back to me with the redundant well known fact that elderly people vote the most? Why you can't follow the conversation? Instead of digging in your heels and doubling down on your inconvenience argument, address the comments I made. Don't ignore them, you might not care to admit that states have "hardship" laws but it is going to get called out in a forum like this.
Click to expand...

What states have hardship laws that will assist people with getting ID and getting to the polls?
 
Gie said:
STOP RIGHT THERE sir. I did. And I did not proceed a word further than your facetious link. I say facetious because it has nothing to do with what I said and is not germane.

I made a comment about the specific "old infirm ill" that you are worried about won't be able to get a photo ID and you are coming back to me with the redundant well known fact that elderly people vote the most? Why you can't follow the conversation? Instead of digging in your heels and doubling down on your inconvenience argument, address the comments I made. Don't ignore them, you might not care to admit that states have "hardship" laws but it is going to get called out in a forum like this.

Also, we already have one Boo Radley character that predicates just about all his arguments with "you can't" and "you have to" and it is trite and not terribly effective. Obvious as all hell too with no place in any kind of "debate" even at the primary school level. That said, you just can't "quote" my comments and then ignore them while just doubling down on your stance while posting links to data that has nothing to do with what was being discussed. Well you can do that, go the hack route if you want, but I don't recommend it and I will call you out on it.
Click to expand...

Well that's ironic, given that you apparently didn't even read my entire post. As I said, you could as well substitute poor and without transportation and the argument would still hold. Further, you provided NO SUPPORT for your assertion that the old and infirm don't vote in large numbers. So I countered your zero evidence with *some* evidence, an alternative scenario, and an overriding argument that you ignored completely. So spare me the "hack" nonsense, at least until you can come up with an argument worthy of the name.
 
MoSurveyor said:
I got mine when I started working, too. No proof of anything IIRC. I think I used my HS library card or something. So, you had to show your BC to the SSA? What's with the on-line application then?
Click to expand...

I'm not eligible for SS myself, but my wife had to send in her BC in order to prove her age.

MoSurveyor said:
Never needed a replacement. I carried my card for a few years then put it in a box along with some other old stuff I knew I'd keep. I haven't seen my SS card for years but I've still got it - probably in the fire box with our insurance policies and car titles.
Click to expand...

Better keep that card in a safe place. The unscrupulous can use it to steal identities.
 
Gie said:
[...] So apparently what the argument you are making comes down to is, it is a inconvenience. Lesson #1: Life is tough not fair.
Click to expand...
What is your reason for imposing the inconvenience? For making life tougher for the elderly?
 
Karl said:
What is your reason for imposing the inconvenience? For making life tougher for the elderly?
Click to expand...

No, no, imposing inconveniences on others when one does not have any is obviously what Christ taught and Reagan wanted.
 
OK, no one has any actual data, so let's go anecdotal.

Does anyone specifically know anyone who doesn't have a photo ID? I don't.
 
Dittohead not! said:
I'm not eligible for SS myself, but my wife had to send in her BC in order to prove her age.

Better keep that card in a safe place. The unscrupulous can use it to steal identities.
Click to expand...
And she had her SS card for decades and was contributing?


20-25 years ago MO wanted to use our SSN as our license#, but we could opt out for a random number, which I did. About a decade after adopting that nonsense they went back to random numbers for everyone - go figure. I even argued with UMKC when they wanted my SSN but they gave me a choice, SSN or no classes. :( I've always been against using our SSN as a national ID number just on principle so, yes, I'm pretty picky about it.
 
Harshaw said:
OK, no one has any actual data, so let's go anecdotal.

Does anyone specifically know anyone who doesn't have a photo ID? I don't.
Click to expand...
The links taxigirl posted in #486 don't count? Why?
 
AdamT said:
I've had the same SS card since I was at least in elemenatry school. I literally can't remember when or how I got it.
Click to expand...

Your SS card is issued at birth, it is mailed, at least in recent years, directly to your parents. My kids both had theirs within a month or two of birth. There's no excuse for not having one.
 
Cephus said:
Your SS card is issued at birth, it is mailed, at least in recent years, directly to your parents. My kids both had theirs within a month or two of birth. There's no excuse for not having one.
Click to expand...

I memorised mine and ate it.
 
Cephus said:
Your SS card is issued at birth, it is mailed, at least in recent years, directly to your parents. My kids both had theirs within a month or two of birth. There's no excuse for not having one.
Click to expand...
As far as having a SS card goes, it is a very rare occurrence to run into someone without one. No excuse though? You can't dictate people's choices in life. Some people still set up housekeeping the old fashioned way where Mom stays home and Dad works. The Amish probably don't have much need for them, either.
 
MoSurveyor said:
As far as having a SS card goes, it is a very rare occurrence to run into someone without one. No excuse though? You can't dictate people's choices in life. Some people still set up housekeeping the old fashioned way where Mom stays home and Dad works. The Amish probably don't have much need for them, either.
Click to expand...

Damn straight I can dictate people's choices in life. I don't accept people being idiots. People who choose to be idiots deserve whatever they get.
 
Cephus said:
Damn straight I can dictate people's choices in life. I don't accept people being idiots. People who choose to be idiots deserve whatever they get.
Click to expand...
You would restrict religious freedom? That's sad, truly sad, that you think the Amish are being idiots. :(
 
MoSurveyor said:
The links taxigirl posted in #486 don't count? Why?
Click to expand...

Thank you for pointing it out.

It's really only one link, because the one relies on the other.

However, without knowing more (and that's all you get in a one-page summary), I would point out that the way the survey which found the 11% figure was constructed, I would have answered "no" for two days of last year as I was out of town for my birthday and came back into state and then renewed my license. I have also, as pretty much everyone has from time to time, carried drivers licenses for at least weeks, if not months, with previous addresses on them, which would also result in a "no" for that survey.

Surely just about everyone can think of a time when they've done something similar.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom