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Iran court convicts Christian pastor convert to death

MKULTRABOY said:
They were tolerant... they were going to allow him to live if he confirmed muhhammad existed. He couldve just lied, they wouldve tolerated that... he had to just sing a line or two from the quran most likely and he wouldve been fine and his kids wouldve had a father still..
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You call that tollerance? What kind of world do you live in? Stop defending them. They hang people up like they were Christmas ornaments, and for what? Religous domination? Political control? You think that is ok? Do you tell rape victims it is their fault for dressing provactively too? Your logic is about as sound as...well Akmadinajads (it isn't sound).

He deprived his children of their father and for that he is selfish.
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Just like it is the rape victim's fault that she lost her virginity to the rapist.

If I was caught by North Korea and forced to admit a known historical reality to them,
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It ISN'T a known historical reality. Muhammad is NOT a prophet of God. That MUST be taken on faith. To not allow someone to have their own faith is barbaric. To justify it by saying, well you could just lie, is ALSO barbaric.

I'd probably say 'oh **** yeah, sure I read wikipedia'
and I'd remain alive, even if I decided to lie.
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And then just like Iran they would air the video, and then find some other reason to murder you.

50 years ago some folks couldnt whistle at a white woman without being executed by a mob.
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By YOUR logic they shouldn't have whistled. But don't worry. I know it is wrong. So stop playing the left wing "Tollerate everything but Christianity or white people" card, because we all know that it was barbaric to string people up for that too.
 
Oh hell yes, it continues...

stonewall50 said:
You call that tollerance? What kind of world do you live in? Stop defending them. They hang people up like they were Christmas ornaments, and for what? Religous domination? Political control? You think that is ok? Do you tell rape victims it is their fault for dressing provactively too? Your logic is about as sound as...well Akmadinajads (it isn't sound).
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Our last hanging was what? 30 years ago? All the guy had to do was accept their guy as it were... 'muhammad'.. he could've lied he would've gotten off scott free and alive. Thats like telling a rape victim... please close your card door and drive away or I will rape you, you have 5 minutes to make your decision" Stick around and get raped its because you wanted it, nobody is going to feel sorry theyre gonna feel straight up ****ed up thinking about you.
Just like it is the rape victim's fault that she lost her virginity to the rapist.
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Voluntary rape... If I get a call on the phone that says "say supercalifragilisticexpialidocious 3 times fast in 30 seconds or Im gonna ****ing rape you like a blow up doll". Im gonna ****ing say it 3 times... cause Im not ****in STUUUUPID.

It ISN'T a known historical reality. Muhammad is NOT a prophet of God. That MUST be taken on faith. To not allow someone to have their own faith is barbaric.
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You don't make sense... he's more proven historically than Christ :shrug: That you think muhammad was not a prophet is your problem lol, I know he was, just like I know christ was, and buddha was, and whoever the hell other sparkly fellows in India were.

To justify it by saying, well you could just lie, is ALSO barbaric.
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Who are you to be so vein as to say you cannot tell a lie to save your life and keep your family together? Christianity stated for centuries suicide was a sin. How the **** is this different? He's probably got some professional religious help in the cell trying to convince him to save his own damned stupid life.

And then just like Iran they would air the video, and then find some other reason to murder you.
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And just like you you would make some **** up about a place you know nothing about. That's moronic to such a fantastic degree I cannot fathom all the ways in which I can describe its stupidity. Did you hear about this in a cartoon?

By YOUR logic they shouldn't have whistled. But don't worry. I know it is wrong. So stop playing the left wing "Tollerate everything but Christianity or white people" card, because we all know that it was barbaric to string people up for that too.
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The dork has a chance to live in this case.
 
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stonewall50 said:
You call that tollerance? What kind of world do you live in? Stop defending them. They hang people up like they were Christmas ornaments, and for what? Religous domination? Political control? You think that is ok? Do you tell rape victims it is their fault for dressing provactively too? Your logic is about as sound as...well Akmadinajads (it isn't sound).



Just like it is the rape victim's fault that she lost her virginity to the rapist.

]

It ISN'T a known historical reality. Muhammad is NOT a prophet of God. That MUST be taken on faith. To not allow someone to have their own faith is barbaric. To justify it by saying, well you could just lie, is ALSO barbaric.



And then just like Iran they would air the video, and then find some other reason to murder you.



By YOUR logic they shouldn't have whistled. But don't worry. I know it is wrong. So stop playing the left wing "Tollerate everything but Christianity or white people" card, because we all know that it was barbaric to string people up for that too.
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you dont judge this case objectively ,if you believed muhammed was the prophet ,would you approve iran's desicion ?
why is that man right,because muhammed is not prophet,now are you different from those whom you judge ?
 
Medusa said:
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you dont judge this case objectively ,if you believed muhammed was the prophet ,would you approve iran's desicion ?
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I absolutely am 100% being objective on this. Do you see me pressing a gun to an atheist's head saying, "You better believe Jesus is the son of God or I'm gonna *****ing blow your head off!"

NO. I would NEVER do that. I would NEVER EVER FORCE my belief in Jesus on them. That is not only a violation of the VERY FIRST Amendment of the Nation of which I reside and take VERY much pride in living, but it is also a fundamental violation of a VERY basic human right. ON TOP OF THAT: I think that is against my religion. I don't think it is AT ALL what Jesus wants me to do. I think he wants me to "Love thy neighbor."

Do NOT support these wretched people. They are murdering this man because his religion is different. Don't try to compare me. I would NEVER do such a thing.

Edit: Now that I have thought about it. I am not objective. I am not objective because I believe whole heartedly in the fundamental rights of human beings. And this is a clear violation of that right. So yes I am biased from a very Human, American, Lockeian, whatever perspective.

Edit Edit: I might add that it has nothing to do with the fact that these monsters happen to be Muslims. It has to do with the fact they are Monsters.
 
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MKULTRABOY said:
Oh hell yes, it continues....
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Sadly you don't understand human rights. So I guess it does.

Our last hanging was what? 30 years ago?
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You think 30 years ago was the last unjustifiable lynching of an America citizen, where it was clearly a violation of human rights and deceny? Well I guess being dragged behind a pick up truck isn't lynching, but it is still the same violation of human rights. And I still think that those responsible for that very heinous violation should have been executed for murder and a violation of human rights.

So I ask you...what does unjustified murder in one country have to do with a clear violation of human rights in Iran? Stop dodging. You are clearly pro-lynch the Christian. At least that is what I am thinking, because your lack of acknowledgement of the wrong in this situation is merely implied consent.

All the guy had to do was accept their guy as it were... 'muhammad'.. he could've lied he would've gotten off scott free and alive.
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And so it is ok to murder him for not believing? Again. You are saying that..."It is ok for Iran to murder him...Because he should just believe what he is told without question." That is your justification here. Or is there some other underlying point here? Because that is IT. That is your ONLY justification. It is OK for Iran to violate the most basic of human rights (this is not unique to 1 country btw) of freedom of religion...because he should lie.

Thats like telling a rape victim... please close your card door and drive away or I will rape you, you have 5 minutes to make your decision" Stick around and get raped its because you wanted it, nobody is going to feel sorry theyre gonna feel straight up ****ed up thinking about you.
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So as long as a rapist gives a warning it isn't rape? It is consensual sex? WOW. This...I mean...I...The...Um? Errr...I mean..



Voluntary rape... If I get a call on the phone that says "say supercalifragilisticexpialidocious 3 times fast in 30 seconds or Im gonna ****ing rape you like a blow up doll". Im gonna ****ing say it 3 times... cause Im not ****in STUUUUPID.
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I have nothing. I litterally cannot think of a possible reply to this that could possibily assist you in understanding how just plain wrong this line of thinking is. I mean I'm not kidding. The only thing I can think of is for you to litterally reread this or to have to be put in the situation.

The idea that if a warning is given and the act continues...it is consensual? Give me a second.....




....


....


nope. Still nothing.

I mean...you think it is OK for them to put a rope around this guy's neck...and MURDER HIM...because he thinks differently...and because...they told him to renounce his belief? Despite all your bantering insults you have thrown at me...you think somehow that it is ok to murder him? To rape someone because you give them a warning? You are placing blame upon a victim. Do you understand that? To you understand how psychologically, fundamentally, and just simply wrong that is?

I can't even discuss the how wrong you are in the rest because of just how simply...I can't even think of the proper word here...wrong just doesn't seem to cover it...the above was. I can't.
 
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Some other thoughts on this blame on the victim:

If a person walks into a bank with a gun and says, "Pay me $100K...or I start murdering people every 5 minutes." If they don't give him the $100K in 5 minutes...well then the Bank is to be charged with murder. Not the nut with the gun. At BEST you can charge him robbery. He gave a warning. They didn't abide by it, so it isn't murder.

A man puts a knife to a victim's throat and says take off your clothes or I rape you. Well the victim doesn't take off their clothes...well it isn't rape because the victim didn't strip.

Kidnappers would certainly not be held liable for any damage they do to a hostage as long as they provide a warning.

Let's blame the victim. Sounds like a GREAT PLAN!
 
Now I think Islam is stupid, just as stupid as Christianity, in fact, but seriously, let's be honest. It's well known that it is illegal in Iran to leave Islam. It's no secret. It's also no secret that doing so carries a death penalty. So why do people think they can do it, be relatively open about it and not get the penalty that they already knew it carried before they did it?

Are they idiots?

If you're going to convert, get the hell out of Dodge. If you sit there and break the law, whether you agree with the law or not, don't be surprised if you get the punishment.
 
Cephus said:
Now I think Islam is stupid, just as stupid as Christianity, in fact, but seriously, let's be honest. It's well known that it is illegal in Iran to leave Islam. It's no secret. It's also no secret that doing so carries a death penalty. So why do people think they can do it, be relatively open about it and not get the penalty that they already knew it carried before they did it?

Are they idiots?

If you're going to convert, get the hell out of Dodge. If you sit there and break the law, whether you agree with the law or not, don't be surprised if you get the punishment.
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Well, the thing is, that it's an ancient, bloodthirsty, brutal, self empowering law which has no place in civilized society. It's ridiculous to say because it's law is OK!

Harking back to the brutal laws of so many dictators, which cause the death of millions of innocents... were they all OK too because they were law?
 
Cephus said:
Now I think Islam is stupid, just as stupid as Christianity, in fact, but seriously, let's be honest. It's well known that it is illegal in Iran to leave Islam. It's no secret. It's also no secret that doing so carries a death penalty. So why do people think they can do it, be relatively open about it and not get the penalty that they already knew it carried before they did it?

Are they idiots?

If you're going to convert, get the hell out of Dodge. If you sit there and break the law, whether you agree with the law or not, don't be surprised if you get the punishment.
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As a Christian...I obviously don't agree with the first part lol.

But the 2nd part makes sense sort of. It should be a good idea to get out of dodge, but it doesn't justify the law. I like what Dennis Miller said about Islam though:

I'm worried about Radical Islam, and also increasingly modderate Islam. I'm starting to wonder when you guys are going to declare a "fatwa" on the assholes within your own organization. I don't have any problem with your faith. I don't even know that much about it. I wouldn't know what the **** Episcapallians did either. It's time for you to start tightening up your own ship, cause WE can't sit in with you. We look like Johnny Winter with the Woo Tang Clan. Because like I said, most of us don't care about your faith, we don't have an axe to grind.
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It is something that I think many faiths should probably look at. It is why I attack the godhatesfags idiots from the dove church or whatever.
 
Mya said:
Well, the thing is, that it's an ancient, bloodthirsty, brutal, self empowering law which has no place in civilized society. It's ridiculous to say because it's law is OK!

Harking back to the brutal laws of so many dictators, which cause the death of millions of innocents... were they all OK too because they were law?
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Because, you say so, right? See, the problem is, far too many people think that the laws and customs they are accustomed to ought to apply everywhere else, damn the people who live there for being so backwards not to agree. You know something? They think the same thing! That's why the Muslim world thinks everyone ought to adopt Sharia law, because clearly, to them at least, anyone who doesn't follow it is "ancient, bloodthirsty, self-empowering" who "has no place in civilized society."

Funny how that works, isn't it?
 
stonewall50 said:
As a Christian...I obviously don't agree with the first part lol.

But the 2nd part makes sense sort of. It should be a good idea to get out of dodge, but it doesn't justify the law.
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Who says the law has to be justified to you? Who, over there, gives a damn what you think? You don't live there, you're not affected by it, yet so many people think that the world has to follow their own personal views, because they're so obviously superior to everyone else's.

And they think the same about their views and you.
 
Cephus said:
Now I think Islam is stupid, just as stupid as Christianity, in fact, but seriously, let's be honest. It's well known that it is illegal in Iran to leave Islam. It's no secret. It's also no secret that doing so carries a death penalty. So why do people think they can do it, be relatively open about it and not get the penalty that they already knew it carried before they did it?

Are they idiots?

If you're going to convert, get the hell out of Dodge. If you sit there and break the law, whether you agree with the law or not, don't be surprised if you get the punishment.
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The concept of right and wrong runs deeper than any government. Frankly, it runs deeper than any religion.

The government of Iran is acting immorally in this case. The people of Iran, and the people of the world, can judge that for themselves in their hearts.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The concept of right and wrong runs deeper than any government. Frankly, it runs deeper than any religion.

The government of Iran is acting immorally in this case. The people of Iran, and the people of the world, can judge that for themselves in their hearts.
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Iran can do what it wants. The guy is free to go when he ceases being a piece of livestock and takes his free ride out of his cell. This isn't hard.
I have far more respect for self immolation.
 
MKULTRABOY said:
Iran can do what it wants. The guy is free to go when he ceases being a piece of livestock and takes his free ride out of his cell. This isn't hard.
I have far more respect for self immolation.
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That says something about your character.
 
Cephus said:
Because, you say so, right? See, the problem is, far too many people think that the laws and customs they are accustomed to ought to apply everywhere else, damn the people who live there for being so backwards not to agree. You know something? They think the same thing! That's why the Muslim world thinks everyone ought to adopt Sharia law, because clearly, to them at least, anyone who doesn't follow it is "ancient, bloodthirsty, self-empowering" who "has no place in civilized society."

Funny how that works, isn't it?
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At least...they are self empowering.

But are you not familiar with John Locke? The idea that everyone has some very basic rights that cannot be infringed upon? I mean if we are going to go by your logic that we are just as barbaric and bloodthirsty for not wanting to follow their law...well then we cannot coexist with Iran. In that case...bye bye Iran. Freedom of religion is not a barbaric concept.
 
MKULTRABOY said:
Iran can do what it wants. The guy is free to go when he ceases being a piece of livestock and takes his free ride out of his cell. This isn't hard.
I have far more respect for self immolation.
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Except...he must believe exactly as he is told or else he is killed. And so in freedom he is nothing more than...a piece of livestock.
 
Cephus said:
Who says the law has to be justified to you? Who, over there, gives a damn what you think? You don't live there, you're not affected by it, yet so many people think that the world has to follow their own personal views, because they're so obviously superior to everyone else's.

And they think the same about their views and you.
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Again. Freedom of religion is a most basic of human right.
 
stonewall50 said:
Except...he must believe exactly as he is told or else he is killed. And so in freedom he is nothing more than...a piece of livestock.
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I hear they use the Iranian truthometer ray to see into his brain if he reaaally believes.
 
MKULTRABOY said:
I hear they use the Iranian truthometer ray to see into his brain if he reaaally believes.
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I hear that as long as a warning is given for the rape or murder...it is consensual.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The concept of right and wrong runs deeper than any government. Frankly, it runs deeper than any religion.
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Absolutely, it's based largely on enlightened self-interest. People want to be treated certain ways, thus they recognize that, being social creatures, they need to treat others the way they themselves want to be treated. That's where right and wrong come into the picture and ultimately, morals. However, different groups of people may have different views on what they want and therefore, the concept of right and wrong may vary from place to place, culture to culture and across time. Once you pile things like religion on top of basic human nature, you get some of the religious stupidity that we see in the Middle East. Doesn't significantly change anything though.

The government of Iran is acting immorally in this case. The people of Iran, and the people of the world, can judge that for themselves in their hearts.
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In your opinion, I'm sure you think so. The people of Iran don't or the government wouldn't be doing it. Stop pretending that your opinions are superior to everyone else's, just because they're yours.
 
stonewall50 said:
At least...they are self empowering.
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Who says self-empowerment is automatically best in every case? The world needs leaders and followers.

But are you not familiar with John Locke? The idea that everyone has some very basic rights that cannot be infringed upon? I mean if we are going to go by your logic that we are just as barbaric and bloodthirsty for not wanting to follow their law...well then we cannot coexist with Iran. In that case...bye bye Iran. Freedom of religion is not a barbaric concept.
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Yes I am and frankly, I'm not necessarily impressed with everything he says. A lot of his philosophy, and Hobbes, are just pie-in-the-sky nonsense that cannot be defended rationally. Rights come from society. If society says you have no rights, you have no rights. They are not some magical, mystical things that float around in the ether. Sure, we have the military might to go nuke Iran until it glows, we can do that if we really want to. That doesn't prove our ways are any better, objectively speaking, than theirs, just that we have the ability to impose our will on another people through force of arms.
 
stonewall50 said:
I hear that as long as a warning is given for the rape or murder...it is consensual.
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Well yes if they let you go and you decide to stay and get raped out of your own free will, yes. It becomes consensual.
 
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