• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

You do know they did agree to give him to a neutral country, and did try to broker a last minute deal. We might have gotten justice concerning him faster, and certainly cheaper had we accepted something there. Just a thought. . . . .

:coffeepap

Yes, I know.

Another thought where the US is bad and their enemy, in this case the taleban, is good.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Yes, I know.

Another thought where the US is bad and their enemy, in this case the taleban, is good.

Please, strawmen are too easy. Try to address what was actually said. I know you can if you try.

:coffeepap
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Please, strawmen are too easy. Try to address what was actually said. I know you can if you try.

:coffeepap
Yes, yes! The Taleban were reasonable and the Americans were not.

I get it.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Yes, yes! The Taleban were reasonable and the Americans were not.

I get it.

Sad to see someone devolve to only strawmen arguments. Sad. Do you have low nation esteem?

:coffeepap
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Sad to see someone devolve to only strawmen arguments. Sad. Do you have low nation esteem?

:coffeepap

Here is what you said.
You do know they did agree to give him to a neutral country, and did try to broker a last minute deal. We might have gotten justice concerning him faster, and certainly cheaper had we accepted something there.

Doesn't that imply that the Taleban were acting reasonably while the American government was not?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Afghanistan made none of those attacks.

Incorrect, AQ was part of the Taliban's government and military sitting on their Ministry of Defense, and forming their 055 Brigade, furthermore, the Taliban granted AQ safe haven from which to recruit, plan, train, and launch attacks against the United States.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

You do know they did agree to give him to a neutral country, and did try to broker a last minute deal. We might have gotten justice concerning him faster, and certainly cheaper had we accepted something there. Just a thought. . . . .

:coffeepap

lol it was a ploy to stop the bombing and give them time to regroup. :roll: Once the bombs start dropping the time for negotiations is over. Furthermore; he was wanted for crimes in the United States, what crimes would a so called neutral (read Islamic sharia state) country have tried him for?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Incorrect, AQ was part of the Taliban's government and military sitting on their Ministry of Defense, and forming their 055 Brigade, furthermore, the Taliban granted AQ safe haven from which to recruit, plan, train, and launch attacks against the United States.

Incorrect. The Afghan government offered to hand over OBL BEFORE 911, if evidence was supplied of his wrongdoing. The US refused to recognise them.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Incorrect. The Afghan government offered to hand over OBL BEFORE 911, if evidence was supplied of his wrongdoing. The US refused to recognise them.

All of this would have been moot had Clinton been man enough to take him out when he had the chance.

j-mac
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

All of this would have been moot had Clinton been man enough to take him out when he had the chance.

j-mac

It wouldn't have a made a bit of difference. 9/11 would have still happened. I believe they comment on this in 9/11 commission report. The point is, we choose war of other options.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

lol it was a ploy to stop the bombing and give them time to regroup. :roll: Once the bombs start dropping the time for negotiations is over. Furthermore; he was wanted for crimes in the United States, what crimes would a so called neutral (read Islamic sharia state) country have tried him for?

That may be an opinion, but as we never did either (you know the one before the bombings as well), we'll never know (which is kind of the point).

:coffeepap
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Here is what you said.

Doesn't that imply that the Taleban were acting reasonably while the American government was not?

Know it doesn't. You read things through you're biased and sKewed lense. It is just a statement of fact. No implicatin at all. But it is why I ask if you have low nation esteem?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Incorrect. The Afghan government offered to hand over OBL BEFORE 911, if evidence was supplied of his wrongdoing. The US refused to recognise them.

Incorrect, the affidavits provided to the Taliban for the U.S.S. Cole attack and Tanzania and Nairobi bombings provided copious amounts of evidence for Bin Laden's wrong doings and this evidence had already been provided to the international community and the United Nations prompting the UNSC to UNANIMOUSLY pass UNSC Resolutions 1189, and 1267, placing sanctions on the Taliban, the Taliban claimed that this was not sufficient evidence for extradition and claimed that a U.S. court did not have jurisdiction over Muslims anyways. Furthermore; you sir are just plain wrong about your assertion that they offered to hand him over before military action had been taken, they laughably offered to try him themselves in a Sharia court, they only offered to hand him over to a third country 8 days AFTER the bombing had already begun!
 
Last edited:
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

That may be an opinion, but as we never did either (you know the one before the bombings as well), we'll never know (which is kind of the point).

:coffeepap

There was no "one before the bombings," they had only offered to try him themselves, and the evidence for Bin Laden's culpability in the murder of U.S. citizens had in fact been presented in detail to the Taliban (and the entire world) for the Tanzania, Nairobi, and U.S.S. Cole Bombings and they refused to extradite him, so we do in fact know that the Taliban were playing games.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Know it doesn't. You read things through you're biased and sKewed lense. It is just a statement of fact. No implicatin at all. But it is why I ask if you have low nation esteem?

You make the statement

You do know they did agree to give him to a neutral country, and did try to broker a last minute deal. We might have gotten justice concerning him faster, and certainly cheaper had we accepted something there.

and then claim there are no implications??? Then why post it? What was your point?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

There was no "one before the bombings," they had only offered to try him themselves, and the evidence for Bin Laden's culpability in the murder of U.S. citizens had in fact been presented in detail to the Taliban (and the entire world) for the Tanzania, Nairobi, and U.S.S. Cole Bombings and they refused to extradite him, so we do in fact know that the Taliban were playing games.

That will be America's fault also.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

There was no "one before the bombings," they had only offered to try him themselves, and the evidence for Bin Laden's culpability in the murder of U.S. citizens had in fact been presented in detail to the Taliban (and the entire world) for the Tanzania, Nairobi, and U.S.S. Cole Bombings and they refused to extradite him, so we do in fact know that the Taliban were playing games.

Over three years and on as many continents, U.S. officials met in public and secret at least 20 times with Taliban representatives to discuss ways the regime could bring suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden to justice.

Talks continued until just days before the Sept. 11 attacks, and Taliban representatives repeatedly suggested they would hand over bin Laden if their conditions were met, sources close to the discussions said.

(snip)

Some Afghan experts argue that throughout the negotiations, the United States never recognized the Taliban need for aabroh, the Pashtu word for "face-saving formula." Officials never found a way to ease the Taliban's fear of embarrassment if it turned over a fellow Muslim to an "infidel" Western power.

"We were not serious about the whole thing, not only this administration but the previous one," said Richard Hrair Dekmejian, an expert in Islamic fundamentalism and author at the University of Southern California. "We did not engage these people creatively. There were missed opportunities."

Diplomats Met With Taliban on Bin Laden (washingtonpost.com)


You cannot fix a problem or get what you want if you don't understand it. Audience and purpose have to match. Bottom line, how did the war thingie work out? Do you really believe we could not have done better?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

That will be America's fault also.


That poor nation esteem you have must be hard to live with.

:coffeepap
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Over three years and on as many continents, U.S. officials met in public and secret at least 20 times with Taliban representatives to discuss ways the regime could bring suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden to justice.

Talks continued until just days before the Sept. 11 attacks, and Taliban representatives repeatedly suggested they would hand over bin Laden if their conditions were met, sources close to the discussions said.


The Taliban did not offer to hand over Bin Laden (at least not to the United States) before the bombing started, you're going to have to do better than unnamed sources, because the Taliban made their disingenuous "3rd country" offer in public to the press 8 days after the bombing had already started. Furthermore; if grand jury indictments (evidence that convinced the UNSC and included courtroom testimony and captured satellite phone transmissions) were not enough to convince the Taliban then nothing would, it is CLEAR that they had absolutely no intent whatsoever to hand over Bin Laden.


(snip)

Some Afghan experts argue that throughout the negotiations, the United States never recognized the Taliban need for aabroh, the Pashtu word for "face-saving formula." Officials never found a way to ease the Taliban's fear of embarrassment if it turned over a fellow Muslim to an "infidel" Western power.

"We were not serious about the whole thing, not only this administration but the previous one," said Richard Hrair Dekmejian, an expert in Islamic fundamentalism and author at the University of Southern California. "We did not engage these people creatively. There were missed opportunities."

Diplomats Met With Taliban on Bin Laden (washingtonpost.com)


You cannot fix a problem or get what you want if you don't understand it. Audience and purpose have to match.

lol O.K. so now you've gone from the argument that had the U.S. provided evidence against Bin Laden to the Taliban they would have handed him over, to now the Taliban didn't hand him over because they were embarrassed? And your expert Richard Hrair Dekmejian claims that the U.S. was the party "not being serious"??? :roll:

Bottom line, how did the war thingie work out? Do you really believe we could not have done better?

Bin Laden is dead, the Taliban is out of power, and Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for AQ. The conditions demanded by the Taliban had already been met 3 years before the 9-11 attacks had even occurred, so the assertions that they were trying to hand Bin Laden over to anyone (let alone the U.S.) are laughable.
 
Last edited:
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Incorrect. The Afghan government offered to hand over OBL BEFORE 911, if evidence was supplied of his wrongdoing. The US refused to recognise them.

You do realize, I hope, that the Taliban leader Mullah Omar is married to one of OBL's daughters? Do you really believe he would hand his father-in-law over to the Great Satan?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

That poor nation esteem you have must be hard to live with.

:coffeepap

Which poor nation are you referring to?

You're not making sense again.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Which poor nation are you referring to?

You're not making sense again.

You feel the US is picked on and everyone hates us. I suggest, just like people with poor self esteem, you are seeking this because you feeling concerning this country are so low that you can't handle any criticism or open discussion. Hence, poor nation esteem.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

The Taliban did not offer to hand over Bin Laden (at least not to the United States) before the bombing started, you're going to have to do better than unnamed sources, because the Taliban made their disingenuous "3rd country" offer in public to the press 8 days after the bombing had already started. Furthermore; if grand jury indictments (evidence that convinced the UNSC and included courtroom testimony and captured satellite phone transmissions) were not enough to convince the Taliban then nothing would, it is CLEAR that they had absolutely no intent whatsoever to hand over Bin Laden.




lol O.K. so now you've gone from the argument that had the U.S. provided evidence against Bin Laden to the Taliban they would have handed him over, to now the Taliban didn't hand him over because they were embarrassed? And your expert Richard Hrair Dekmejian claims that the U.S. was the party "not being serious"??? :roll:



Bin Laden is dead, the Taliban is out of power, and Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for AQ. The conditions demanded by the Taliban had already been met 3 years before the 9-11 attacks had even occurred, so the assertions that they were trying to hand Bin Laden over to anyone (let alone the U.S.) are laughable.

I did not claim they offered to hand him over to the US before the bombing. Nor did I argue we had to provide them with evidence. I said there was room for negotiation, that turning him to someone neutral, not us, was an option not taken, and that when the bombing started, they tried to negotiate, but we weren't open. Instead, we wanted to nation build, the most costly way to do this.

OBL was killed in Pakistan, not Afghanistan, nearly a decade down the road. The Taliban is and was no threat to us, and Afghanistan, like Pakistan, still harbors our enemies, and in fact we help provide excellent training, just as we did in Iraq. I seem to recall a CIA report saying those trained in Iraq will be killing folks for decades to come. But, we can into that later.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

You feel the US is picked on and everyone hates us.

Spare my feelings, please. You don''t recall a recent conversation we had where i was critical of the United States because they can't govern their borders or balance a budget?

I suggest, just like people with poor self esteem, you are seeking this because you feeling concerning this country are so low that you can't handle any criticism or open discussion. Hence, poor nation esteem.

LOL!!
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

I did not claim they offered to hand him over to the US before the bombing. Nor did I argue we had to provide them with evidence. I said there was room for negotiation, that turning him to someone neutral, not us, was an option not taken, and that when the bombing started, they tried to negotiate, but we weren't open. Instead, we wanted to nation build, the most costly way to do this.

Once again the offer to hand him over to a third nation was disingenuous which is proven conclusively by the fact that their demand was that we provide evidence of Bin Laden's guilt and that evidence had long been provided and they still refused to hand him over.

OBL was killed in Pakistan, not Afghanistan,

Because he was forced to flee Afghanistan.

nearly a decade down the road. The Taliban is and was no threat to us,

The Taliban were co-conspirators in the 9-11 attacks I consider them as guilty as AQ which was part and parcel to the Taliban government and military.

and Afghanistan, like Pakistan, still harbors our enemies,

We crushed the central leadership in Afghanistan and forced them to flee into the borderlands.


and in fact we help provide excellent training, just as we did in Iraq. I seem to recall a CIA report saying those trained in Iraq will be killing folks for decades to come. But, we can into that later.

The NIST report stated that they would be emboldened to continue their Jihad elsewhere should the U.S. fail in Iraq but would cause the inverse should the opposite occur, and the U.S. succeeded in Iraq.

The Iraq conflict has become the “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves to have failed we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.

We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.

United States-led counterterrorism efforts have seriously damaged the leadership of al-Qa’ida and disrupted it’s operations.

We assess that the global jihadist movement is decentralized, lacks a coherent global strategy, and is becoming more diffuse.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom