Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

Grant · Mar 4, 2012

Arcana XV said:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. No one controls the future, not the aggressors, nor the ones being attacked. The only ones who control the future are the winners of history. We don't know who's going to win this fight yet. We're still right in the middle of it.

I agree that we don't know who is going to win this fight but we certainly should.

if you feel we can't win it. despite all our modernity, why not?

Arcana XV · Mar 4, 2012

Grant said:
Their advantage is a strong belief system accompanied by a strong social structure, an apparent willingness to carry out any inhumane and bloodthirsty crime against innocents anywhere, and to protest at any slight real or perceived. This is already frightening us into appeasement.

Our advantage is advanced weaponry and we are failing to use it. We do not have a fall back system.

Maybe bombing their leadership on a grander scale won't work, but the drones seemed to have some value for a while. I'd say its worth a try.

The US has, or had, powerful Allies also. Why are they more powerful than us?

A world war would be extremely unlikely if we seriously set out to win it.

I don't think we're frightened into appeasement. I think we're torn on what is the best way to fight this war. Many still cling to Western ideals on the rules of war. We're still fighting this by following our own principles and values. Which worked really well when we were fighting enemies with a similar worldview. This new enemy does not share these values and we're left wondering whether to become as barbaric as they are, or to continue upholding our principles regardless. Personally, I don't think we should descend to their level, but I do understand that more and more people think we should.

Arcana XV · Mar 4, 2012

Grant said:
The Americans lost in Iraq, Egypt, Libya, and will shortly lose the entire Middle East, though much depeds on Israel. They have lost in Afghanistan.

They cannot win wars and don't even plan to. Instead they want people to like them, with this hearts and minds craziness being their most obvious craziness.

By the way, these "Libyan rebels", like the Egyptian rebels" are really going to bite our asses.

It's the price of trying to be civilized in a region of barbarians. I'm not sure it would have been any better had they decided to bomb that part of the world into oblivion. Given the two choices, maybe the right one was made after all.

Grant said:
I agree that we don't know who is going to win this fight but we certainly should.

if you feel we can't win it. despite all our modernity, why not?

I honestly don't know. What are we trying to win this time exactly? Are we trying to eradicate terrorism? If that's what we're doing, I believe it can't be done. If the goal is revenge for 9/11, I'd say mission accomplished. If the goal is spreading democracy, war is not the way to do it.

Grant · Mar 4, 2012

Arcana XV said:
I don't think we're frightened into appeasement.

That's certainly my take though. The media is refusing to publish, or are minimizing, anything that might reflect badly on Muslims while the attacks on the US and their policies continues. there is no perspective.

I think we're torn on what is the best way to fight this war.

Yes, i think so and that makes us particularly vulnerable. With Hitlers and Mussolinis there was only one way to fight them, though of course many preferred appeasement to war then as now. But war was a more straightforward proposition and the media pretty much supported their country. Now its quite different.

Many still cling to Western ideals on the rules of war. We're still fighting this by following our own principles and values. Which worked really well when we were fighting enemies with a similar worldview. This new enemy does not share these values and we're left wondering whether to become as barbaric as they are, or to continue upholding our principles regardless. Personally, I don't think we should descend to their level, but I do understand that more and more people think we should.

I honestly don't believe we could descend to their level, at least on any large scale. The idea of sawing a persons head off and posting the results on the internet, much to the delight of many Islamic viewers, is as abhorrent to us as anything can possibly be. And the history of this ugliness goes back a few decades, right to the Munich massacre. Our biggest scandal was probably Abu Ghraib, where nobody died at all, but the apologies went on for months. I never hear any apologies whatsoever for beheadings, honour killings, shooting women through the head, etc. Nunca. They, unlike us, would probably find such apologies find demeaning, or there would be fears that they should stop..

xpiher · Mar 4, 2012

Grant said:
When this happens again, and the policies of Barrack Obama have insured that it will, then a bomb of sufficient magnitude should be released on the government headquarters of wherever the source of the attack might be. Thus if Iran gets out of line, bomb the government buildings in Tehran.

Continue this program until there is a strong change in attitude concerning any American and Anti Western sentiments. That will win their hearts and minds much more quickly than BHO's apology tours.

You can't be that naive can you?

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Grant · Mar 4, 2012

Arcana XV said:
It's the price of trying to be civilized in a region of barbarians. I'm not sure it would have been any better had they decided to bomb that part of the world into oblivion. Given the two choices, maybe the right one was made after all.

I don't think for a moment that we should bomb any countries into oblivion. Only where the government leaders meet. They would be like drone missiles but on a larger scale. That way there are a lot fewer casualties among innocent people, those who do not advocate violence and just want to get along with their lives. I remain convinced that most Muslims feel this way.

I honestly don't know. What are we trying to win this time exactly? Are we trying to eradicate terrorism? If that's what we're doing, I believe it can't be done. If the goal is revenge for 9/11, I'd say mission accomplished. If the goal is spreading democracy, war is not the way to do it.

I'd say we just go into the self defense mode and let them work out there own problems internally. If there is any hint of terror toward the west or its allies then Plan A goes back into effect and another appropriately sized bomb will be dropped. No more terror or aggression and there will be no more bombs. That will be their decision to make.

And by the way, any time Muslims get offended about free speech, etc. then they should be deported to Afghanistan. It could still serve a purpose.

Grant · Mar 4, 2012

xpiher said:
You can't be that naive can you?

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You cant be that unimaginative, can you?

Boo Radley · Mar 4, 2012

Grant said:
But the United States is no longer the strongest power and their enemies know that. Certainly they have the most weapons and the largest armies but they are weak as a nation.

They went to a phony war with Libya and the big deal was that nobody got hurt! What army can possibly go to battle with that as their main objective? It's a parody.

You misread it. What makes us weak, if we are in fact weak, is that we react recklessly, don't have a well thoughtout plan, treat war as if no thought has to go behind it, and fail to realize a democracy can never support long drawn ouot wars without just cause. Just because leaders want a war is not enough, and has never been enough to keep support in a democracy. You have to have clear justification, the support of the people, and do it ina reasonable period equal to the threat or justification. Only a fool would have gone into Iraq, and Afghanistan should have had a much clearer and limited mission.

Boo Radley · Mar 4, 2012

Grant said:
Another goofy deflection from the addle-headed leftists.

I guess telling the turth has the effect. Lies are much easier to manage. Just as blind hate is easier and clearer than reason. I understand. But such easiness is more a weakness than a strength. :coffeepap

j-mac · Mar 4, 2012

Boo Radley said:
You misread it. What makes us weak, if we are in fact weak, is that we react recklessly, don't have a well thoughtout plan, treat war as if no thought has to go behind it, and fail to realize a democracy can never support long drawn ouot wars without just cause. Just because leaders want a war is not enough, and has never been enough to keep support in a democracy. You have to have clear justification, the support of the people, and do it ina reasonable period equal to the threat or justification. Only a fool would have gone into Iraq, and Afghanistan should have had a much clearer and limited mission.

Dude....Think before you post, and please repost this thought, in english this time....Thanks.

j-mac

Boo Radley · Mar 4, 2012

j-mac said:
Dude....Think before you post, and please repost this thought, in english this time....Thanks.

j-mac

Not sure what you don't understand.

Our weakness -- we reacted recklessly. Invading iraq was reckless. We planned poorly. Didn't understand how a democracy works. This is our real weakness.

Where are you confused?

Arcana XV · Mar 4, 2012

Grant said:
I don't think for a moment that we should bomb any countries into oblivion. Only where the government leaders meet. They would be like drone missiles but on a larger scale. That way there are a lot fewer casualties among innocent people, those who do not advocate violence and just want to get along with their lives. I remain convinced that most Muslims feel this way.

You know that wouldn't work. Their next move would be to fill their government buildings with civilians and use them as shields, then proceed to use any ensuing deaths for propaganda purposes.

I'd say we just go into the self defense mode and let them work out there own problems internally. If there is any hint of terror toward the west or its allies then Plan A goes back into effect and another appropriately sized bomb will be dropped. No more terror or aggression and there will be no more bombs. That will be their decision to make.

Terror attacks on the West are exceptional occurrences. Most Islamic terrorism happens in their own countries against their own people.

Grant · Mar 4, 2012

Boo Radley said:
You misread it. What makes us weak, if we are in fact weak, is that we react recklessly, don't have a well thoughtout plan, treat war as if no thought has to go behind it, and fail to realize a democracy can never support long drawn ouot wars without just cause. Just because leaders want a war is not enough, and has never been enough to keep support in a democracy. You have to have clear justification, the support of the people, and do it ina reasonable period equal to the threat or justification. Only a fool would have gone into Iraq, and Afghanistan should have had a much clearer and limited mission.

I read what wrong?

But we agree that America is weak, and excuses and apologies only heighten that reality.

The question Americans should be asking themselves is how they might be strong again, but as long as they continue to debate condoms, an issue more relevant to the 1950's, and focus on celebrities while ignoring the larger issues, their rapid slide will continue.

I see no stopping the American fall from grace. Do you?

j-mac · Mar 4, 2012

Boo Radley said:
Not sure what you don't understand.

So you have it all figured out do you? Well, let's see...

Our weakness

Our weakness is only a symptom of a President that doesn't believe that America is exceptional. A President that came into office with an inner hope to take America down a couple of notches. A President that was not qualified to be President, and is possibly not really pulling the strings of the office.

we reacted recklessly.

As a country in electing Obama? You're damned right we did. Now we are going to pay if we can't undo the damage he has put in place.

Invading iraq was reckless.

Iraq is going to be the least of our problems. Think of the chaos Obama unleashed with allowing the dominos of the ME to tumble in favor of catch phrase feel goodism.

Didn't understand how a democracy works.

Sure we do...They either fall to strong men dictators, or they fail. That is why we are a republic.

This is our real weakness.

The real weakness is encapsulated in progressivism. It is a failing pipe dream.

Where are you confused?

My confusion is in how supposedly smart men can be so easily duped, and led by liars, and con men like our current President.

j-mac

Grant · Mar 4, 2012

Arcana XV said:
You know that wouldn't work. Their next move would be to fill their government buildings with civilians and use them as shields, then proceed to use any ensuing deaths for propaganda purposes.

Applied consistently I think it would work and if we ignored the propaganda which would follow.

But it will never be done because we now lack the stomach for war and our enemies don't. That's why, for now, the odds are on their side. Only when it goes too far, as happened prior to WWII when the appeasement ended, was action finally taken. Then of course it became much bloodier, and thats the likely scenario we will next be facing.

Terror attacks on the West are exceptional occurrences. Most Islamic terrorism happens in their own countries against their own people.

Yes, just as Nazis, Fascists and Communists turned on their own people, and then made it international. The belief, the ideology, becomes intensely more important than people. More important than anything. We don't yet have any strong beliefs apart from Rodney Kings plaintive ""Why can't we all get along?". That question summarizes up much of western thought and we act accordingly, naively hoping others will eventually share this point of view.

Grant · Mar 4, 2012

j-mac said:
So you have it all figured out do you? Well, let's see...
Our weakness is only a symptom of a President that doesn't believe that America is exceptional. A President that came into office with an inner hope to take America down a couple of notches. A President that was not qualified to be President, and is possibly not really pulling the strings of the office. As a country in electing Obama? You're damned right we did. Now we are going to pay if we can't undo the damage he has put in place.

Iraq is going to be the least of our problems. Think of the chaos Obama unleashed with allowing the dominos of the ME to tumble in favor of catch phrase feel goodism.
Sure we do...They either fall to strong men dictators, or they fail. That is why we are a republic.

The real weakness is encapsulated in progressivism. It is a failing pipe dream. My confusion is in how supposedly smart men can be so easily duped, and led by liars, and con men like our current President.

j-mac

I agree with your summing up but do the American people have what it takes to change direction sharply enough to get back to where they were? I rather think its too late.

The American people, once rightly suspicious of big government, has largely become dependent on it. The rapid rise in rules and regulations and the increased power in the bureaucracy and its unions will ensure that it stays that way. I don''t see any way the ordinary American taxpayer can fight back, even if they did get rid of the dangerously ignorant Barrack Obama.

j-mac · Mar 4, 2012

Grant said:
I agree with your summing up but do the American people have what it takes to change direction sharply enough to get back to where they were? I rather think its too late.

That's a good question, but I don't think it is all lost yet. If Obama, and the congress is allowed to mire in the fist of this progressive destruction for another term, then maybe. But I prefer to be optimistic.

The American people, once rightly suspicious of big government, has largely become dependent on it.

Nah, I don't think the suspicion has ceased, just lulled a bit as we see whom is going to step forward. The dependency can be turned around as well. Think of it as a long vacation....In my working life I am lucky if I take my vacation at all, maybe a week in the summer. When in the Army we used to get up to 30 days leave at a time. I remember thinking that was cool. But after about two weeks, I found myself wanting to get back....Same thing here in a way.

The rapid rise in rules and regulations and the increased power in the bureaucracy and its unions will ensure that it stays that way.

I agree. Friday I got a phone call to participate in a tele town hall with Lindsey Graham, and although I have had my problems with his stances on things, When I asked him the question of regulation that you bring up here, he was animated, and tone wise angry that the libs are pulling this crap. What they can do I don't know, but I got the feeling that it was not going to be tolerated.

I don''t see any way the ordinary American taxpayer can fight back, even if they did get rid of the dangerously ignorant Barrack Obama.

That's why we can't get myopic. We need the house, and senate as well.

j-mac

Kane · Mar 4, 2012

The people are sick of being oppressed. It would diffuse the already polarized and highly tense political atmosphere if the television media/news would stop lying to the people and tell them the truth instead of propagandizing them 24-7.

The constant terror scares, the false fears about this "marxist" plot, that "communist," targeting Assange for just releasing confidential files, the overtly oppressive censorship, not to mention the extremely offensive rhetoric coming from the mouths of govmnt officials, Feds or otherwise, make America appear and feel like a dictatorship.

Wiseone · Mar 4, 2012

j-mac said:
Oh for goodness sake. For a poster with a screen name such as yours, you sure are not displaying much with this entry my friend.

You don't think that discussing the events, or offering our opinion matters, and to that you are right, our little space here in the vastness of the internet is but a spec in the overall vastness of the net. But, we are in here, on an opinion site mind you, offering our opinions and discussing the situation.

You however, wasted alot of space here to basically post on an opinion site, about how others opinions are useless and irrelevant, yet you offer your opinion of them being justified in killing Americans over the inadvertent burning of a book as if IT IS relevant.

Good job, at showing everyone how inflated your own ego is.

I'm talking from the perspective of what matters on the ground for the Soldiers and the mission. If you're talking outside of that perspective, as in just a debate or discussion, that's fine but that's not what I was driving at. What motivated my post was seeing a lot of the anger and pride motivating some people to think our Soldiers or our mission should show a total disregard for what the Afghans think, however that will clearly get people killed. So what matters to the Soldiers and Mission isn't our opinion, if I was a commander in Afghanistan I would be smart enough to know that my opinion of the Koran is entirely irrelevant to what matters, so long as I treat it with respect my opinion is meaningless.

For example when looking at this scenario I see that if a Koran is burned in Afghanistan then some Afghans will get violent and some Soldiers will be killed in direct retaliation. To me, the way to avoid these deaths isn't to tell the Afghans "tough ****" its to avoid disrespecting Islam whenever possible. Of course some of the individuals who attacked our Soldiers may have done so anyway without this event, however it's obvious what happened didn't help the situation so whether it encouraged violence, or support for causes against our mission, its better to avoid letting it happen again.

Of course that's my opinion, on the opinion site.

Grant said:
It seems also in this scenario you advance the idea that American opinion doesn't matter, that they are just onlookers in all of this and will be murdered if the Afghanis are offended and get the opportunity to murder them. Americans, of course, remain secure in the knowledge that they are a superior culture, will remain unoffended, and let their soldiers die rather than respond in any meaningful way.

What has brought about this change in national character that Americans will allow themselves to be killed and then blame the killings on themselves? That has been going on at since 9/11 at least, despite the current President making apology tours and blaming America for the world's problems, past and the present.

All the modern weaponry in the world is meaningless without courage, without standing up to those who would do you harm, and doing it to them first. Americans are assisting in deposing leaders who have managed to keep a lid on much of the ignorance-fueled hatreds built up over centuries and are now allowing it, and even encouraging it, to be released.

This current President, still being supported by a generation made ignorant by an American educational system run amuck, is making the world a far more dangerous place, and many more people will die as a consequence. The United States should just pull out of everywhere and let each country fend for itself. The Americans have become unreliable and thus more dangerous than they would be just sitting on their hands at home.

They'll grope each other at airports but believe Muslims with guns are no security risk at all. It doesn't get much dumber than this.

You've gone way off topic and into straw man territory

xpiher · Mar 4, 2012

j-mac said:
So you have it all figured out do you? Well, let's see...

Our weakness is only a symptom of a President that doesn't believe that America is exceptional. A President that came into office with an inner hope to take America down a couple of notches. A President that was not qualified to be President, and is possibly not really pulling the strings of the office.

As a country in electing Obama? You're damned right we did. Now we are going to pay if we can't undo the damage he has put in place.

Iraq is going to be the least of our problems. Think of the chaos Obama unleashed with allowing the dominos of the ME to tumble in favor of catch phrase feel goodism.

Sure we do...They either fall to strong men dictators, or they fail. That is why we are a republic.

The real weakness is encapsulated in progressivism. It is a failing pipe dream.

My confusion is in how supposedly smart men can be so easily duped, and led by liars, and con men like our current President.

j-mac

You are far to partisan mate

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Grant · Mar 5, 2012

j-mac said:
That's a good question, but I don't think it is all lost yet. If Obama, and the congress is allowed to mire in the fist of this progressive destruction for another term, then maybe. But I prefer to be optimistic.

I prefer to be optimistic also and often look to the dumping of Jimmy Carter for inspiration, but a lot is based on an if. This wasn't always the case with America, once the most optimistic nation in the world.

Nah, I don't think the suspicion has ceased, just lulled a bit as we see whom is going to step forward. The dependency can be turned around as well. Think of it as a long vacation....In my working life I am lucky if I take my vacation at all, maybe a week in the summer. When in the Army we used to get up to 30 days leave at a time. I remember thinking that was cool. But after about two weeks, I found myself wanting to get back....Same thing here in a way.

But you, as I, know the America that was, the pride in being an American and the genuine feel of what that meant.. Now many Americans are asking what their country can do for them and Obama is right there to give them the answer, as defined by big government. And each generation will lose something and not even know its gone.

I agree. Friday I got a phone call to participate in a tele town hall with Lindsey Graham, and although I have had my problems with his stances on things, When I asked him the question of regulation that you bring up here, he was animated, and tone wise angry that the libs are pulling this crap. What they can do I don't know, but I got the feeling that it was not going to be tolerated.

I certainly hope you're right, and the last elections with the Tea Party supported candidates doing so well certainly support the idea that something can be done

.

That's why we can't get myopic. We need the house, and senate as well.

Yes, absolutely.

Boo Radley · Mar 5, 2012

Grant said:
I read what wrong?

But we agree that America is weak, and excuses and apologies only heighten that reality.

The question Americans should be asking themselves is how they might be strong again, but as long as they continue to debate condoms, an issue more relevant to the 1950's, and focus on celebrities while ignoring the larger issues, their rapid slide will continue.

I see no stopping the American fall from grace. Do you?

No we don't agree. I used the word IF for a reason.

let me ask you, if you apologize for your actions to your wife, does that make you weak? Your neighbor? Your boss? That work who you don't like and doesn't like you? The truth is, being honest and stating your mistakes clearly is a strength. Those who can't do that are weak.

And the condom stuff was a nice diversion. You learn for the media well. We are also strong enough, and capable enough to deal with more than one issue at a time. The fact is both wars were ill-conceived, especially Iraq. And Iraq was reckless and a loser for us from conception.

RDS · Mar 5, 2012

Apologies have no bearing really. Better to speed up the withdrawal.

Afghanistan: Bomb Near U.S. Base Kills 3

(KABUL, Afghanistan) — A suicide bomber killed at least two civilians and wounded four others in an attack near an American military base outside Kabul, police said, the latest violence linked to burning of Qurans at the base.

Read more: Afghanistan: Bomb Near U.S. Base Kills 3 - TIME

Mya · Mar 5, 2012

RDS said:
Apologies have no bearing really......

Exactly!

No amount of apologies will do.Is it necessary to adopt that kind of shocking violence? One can not imagine mere human beings concocting this terrible deeds!

But unfortunately in those parts of the world, the pull is always towards insanity, it seems!

Grant · Mar 5, 2012

Boo Radley said:
No we don't agree. I used the word IF for a reason.

let me ask you, if you apologize for your actions to your wife, does that make you weak? Your neighbor? Your boss? That work who you don't like and doesn't like you? The truth is, being honest and stating your mistakes clearly is a strength. Those who can't do that are weak.

So which role in your hypothetical does Obama play and how do his world apology tours effect the American people and that of his predecessors? And as a result of these apologies is it your contention that America is now stronger and more respected?

And the condom stuff was a nice diversion. You learn for the media well. We are also strong enough, and capable enough to deal with more than one issue at a time.

That doesn't appear to be the case. You cannot do everyday things like govern your borders or balance a budget while your elected reps are debating contraceptives and Christianity. Another world apology tour might be in order to further trivialize the former world super power to a of state of insignificance.

The fact is both wars were ill-conceived, especially Iraq. And Iraq was reckless and a loser for us from conception.

Ever since WWII conflicts have not gone well for the United States. You no longer play to win, and everyone knows it. Thats why the USA has most recently been defeated by a ragtag group of camel chasers. If you had learned to treat your enemies the way you treat each other then you might have enjoyed some success in these misadventures.

You should ask to join BHO on his next World Apology Tour and explain again what poor planners you are, that you cannot think ahead and so on. Much of the world is ready for another laugh at America's expense.

Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

Grant

Arcana XV

Arcana XV

Grant

xpiher

Well-known member

Grant

Grant

Boo Radley

Boo Radley

j-mac

Boo Radley

Arcana XV

Grant

j-mac

Grant

Grant

j-mac

Kane

Wiseone

xpiher

Well-known member

Grant

Boo Radley

RDS

Mya

Grant