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Afghans Protest Alleged Koran Desecration

Didn't they once blow up the Buddha statues of Bamiyan despite world wide plea which they didn't give a damn? Did any muslims anywhere even apologize for it? Did even one buddhist anywhere go out to the street in angry protest? Apparently, these people are savage zombies to their cultish way of life that will never amount to anything except bloodshed as long as they continue to practice their 7th century blood rituals. They understand only violence and bloodshed, not reason.
 
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dolphinocean said:
Didn't they once blow up the Buddha statues of Bamiyan despite world wide plea which they didn't give a damn? Did any muslims anywhere even apologize for it? Did even one buddhist anywhere go out to the street in angry protest? Apparently, these people are savage zombies to their cultish way of life that will never amount to anything except bloodshed as long as they continue to practice their 7th century blood rituals. They understand only violence and bloodshed, not reason.
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Well there's no doubt that there's freaks and idiots in the world. But that doesn't mean we have to act like them. I kinda like that we're above all that.
 
I live in a country surrounded by muslims just like Israel and one of them has the world's largest muslim population. Just live and let live for their sake.
 
The commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force explained that the materials were gathered for disposal and were inadvertently given to troops for burning. Perhaps it was actually a genuine mistake made by the troops who were responsible for garbage disposal at Bagram Airfield and there was no intent to insult the Afghans and their religion at all.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Boo Radley said:
I understand your sentiment, but really, when you invade a country, are not really fighting their army, but their people, your the one whose made the mistake. Much like with VN, while you can make a leader surrender, or an army quit, a people tends to resist much longer. Democracies are not designed to be able to occupy long term.

As for Iraq, well, I don't really see the difference you do. But what happens to both will and always has depended on what they do, not us.
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Going into Afghanistan wasn't a mistake. We had to do that. The actions post invasion are the mistake. In contrast, Iraq was a mistake. The difference is, what we did post invasion there was better. We didn't get a half-hearted surge like Obama gave Afghanistan. The ROE were far more relaxed, the people actually gave a crap about their own country, and we had a lot more autonomy on the ground. We agree that the people have to care about their country and want change. Afghanistan does neither. Iraqis did care and still do. When news that the Saudi's (a Sunni gov't) are establishing an embassy in Baghdad comes out, I'd say that's an indicator that things are going good. Sure, they still have attacks from time to time. They still have protests as well. Do we not have a friggin Occupy protest in the every city with a population over 10? Do they not clash with police in Oakland or New York? I believe the Iraqis are doing well and will continue too.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

This is just the same group of rabble always out there looking to burn an American flag at the drop of a hat; of course the taliban will encourage such behavior to achieve their aims.

Fact is, yes, these were burned by mistake, so now you're going to see the usual overzealous ginned-up reaction. Does anybody wailing in the streets stop to consider the fact that they were already desecrated to begin with? That they'd been scribbled in to pass messages on the sly?

You always see this double standard. The insurgent groups in-country violate such religious precepts everyday -- desecrate korans to pass intelligence, set up ambushes with hasty retreats into a mosque (often with fortified positions or weapons caches within them) -- but no one reports that activity. Its a common tactic that usually goes unreported -- unless of course it succeeds to blow up in our faces.

I know we're held to a higher standard, and we have to fight our away all the political an sensitivity pitfalls -- You won't see me condemning anyone for this mistake, and I will condemn the protestors getting violent over the issue. Its a BS ploy when it gets to this point, the favorite tactic of supposed "zealots" who will willing violate their own tenets to realize their war aims, but stir up a ruckus when the US provides even the smallest opportunity.
 
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Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

MarineTpartier said:
Going into Afghanistan wasn't a mistake. We had to do that. The actions post invasion are the mistake. In contrast, Iraq was a mistake. The difference is, what we did post invasion there was better. We didn't get a half-hearted surge like Obama gave Afghanistan. The ROE were far more relaxed, the people actually gave a crap about their own country, and we had a lot more autonomy on the ground. We agree that the people have to care about their country and want change. Afghanistan does neither. Iraqis did care and still do. When news that the Saudi's (a Sunni gov't) are establishing an embassy in Baghdad comes out, I'd say that's an indicator that things are going good. Sure, they still have attacks from time to time. They still have protests as well. Do we not have a friggin Occupy protest in the every city with a population over 10? Do they not clash with police in Oakland or New York? I believe the Iraqis are doing well and will continue too.
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Not sure we had to. I remember an argument by an EX CIA agent, Scheuer?, who argued we should have done what we actually ended up doing concerning OBL. Go in on 9/12, take him out, and go home. There would have been an uproar, but it would have been over, the message sent, and we would not be nation building or encouraging our enemies.

Still, most understood Afghanistan. It was Iraq where we, or Bush if you prefer, lost our minds.

But the point you responded to was that Afghanistan is up to the afghan people and not the US. It will always be the case.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

the majority of the population have a 7th century tribal mindset
they view us as invaders and occupiers, just as they did the russians a generation ago
those who want to instigate trouble among the illiterate moslem masses only have to fabricate a credible premise
in this case it was the burning of the korans
and we aided their effort
the act of writing in the korans by the prisoners is a prohibited act of desecration according to their religion. but we allowed that fact to be conveniently lost by our indifferent actions to dispose of them
why would the same ignorant population that already resents our presence not also be willing to believe that the same troops who were found to have pissed on their dead brethrens' corpses would not also intentionally burn the holy book of a religion they do not subscribe to
so much for hearts and minds

here's more:
Half a million Afghans displaced by war have been left homeless and struggling to survive because of government and international neglect, Amnesty International said Thursday.

Around 400 people join makeshift shelters around the country every day, Amnesty said in a report entitled “Fleeing war, finding misery”, based on three years of research.

The Afghan government estimates that more than 40 people froze to death this winter, the harshest in 15 years, with at least 28 children dying in camps around Kabul. ...
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War and neglect leaves 500,000 Afghans homeless: Amnesty | The Raw Story

if the roles were reversed and we were being occupied by an afghani military that indicated by their actions they disrespected our culture and our religion, would we expect our people to not respond to what were indicated to be egregious acts against our people and our religion
knowing my area's history tells me that it was the ill considered actions of the brits that caused the native population to mobilize in opposition during the revolution. we were motivated by our repulsion of their actions to turn them - and those who were allied with them - from our soil. however they may be instigated by the taliban, this response by the afghanistan people should come as no surpise

anyone know what the goal post is, what must first be accomplished, before we can return our troops from that G-d forsaken land?
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Boo Radley said:
Not sure we had to. I remember an argument by an EX CIA agent, Scheuer?, who argued we should have done what we actually ended up doing concerning OBL. Go in on 9/12, take him out, and go home. There would have been an uproar, but it would have been over, the message sent, and we would not be nation building or encouraging our enemies.

Still, most understood Afghanistan. It was Iraq where we, or Bush if you prefer, lost our minds.

But the point you responded to was that Afghanistan is up to the afghan people and not the US. It will always be the case.
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The initial entry into Afghanistan was MASTERFUL. If you've never read books on that, I suggest you do. If anything for the entertainment value. It makes a great read. The Army SF guys I have worked with say that operation was an ODA's wet dream. It was exactly what they train for and exist for. I applaud Bush for allowing that type of war to happen. The follow up is what screwed it up.
I agree, Iraq was a mistake to go into. I have shifted my views a little on it. I think I was blinded by how well we did while we were there and confused that with the reason we went to begin with. We didn't go for the right reasons, I will agree. However, the way we fought it was well done. It hurt initially in '04-'06. We learned our lessons and realized that we couldn't go into a COIN mindset until we beat the bad guys. That's the whole premise of COIN. You can't shift to it before the area is secure. You have to have a safe environment to let groups like medical teams, construction teams, and agricultural teams come in. That's the mistake we're making in Afghanistan. Instead of taking it slow, like in Iraq. We are trying to force Iraq to happen in Afghanistan, if that makes sense. It can't be forced and its a different country.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

EagleAye said:
Can you recommend a book?
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Not a Good Day to Die is great by Sean Naylor.
The Mission, the Men, and Me: Lessons from a Former Delta Force Commander by Pete Blaber. This one starts out like a motivational book about how to fix your life. It turns into a great war book that shows how much autonomy was given to our guys over there.
Hunting the Jackal by Billy Waugh. The last few chaptors talk about Afghanistan. The whole book is a great read (he tracked Osama Bin Laden in the 90's) but the last few chaptors are great.
There are quite a few more but these popped in my head first.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

MarineTpartier said:
Not a Good Day to Die is great by Sean Naylor.
The Mission, the Men, and Me: Lessons from a Former Delta Force Commander by Pete Blaber. This one starts out like a motivational book about how to fix your life. It turns into a great war book that shows how much autonomy was given to our guys over there.
Hunting the Jackal by Billy Waugh. The last few chaptors talk about Afghanistan. The whole book is a great read (he tracked Osama Bin Laden in the 90's) but the last few chaptors are great.
There are quite a few more but these popped in my head first.
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Nice! I'll check those out. Thank you.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

L0neW0lf said:
The ironic thing about all of this is that burning it is one of two Islamically accepted methods to dispose of holy scripture, like Qurans that are no longer usable with torn up pages or if they are edited etc, the other acceptable method being burying them.
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Burning is the acceptable method of destroying old or damaged U.S. flags; it doens't make it acceptable for any lowlife with a zippo to drag one out in the street and burn it, however. It's all in context.

Having said that, this crap about these books is getting old in a hurry. The real tragedy here is that American soldiers lost their lives. I wonder how many Afghans will protest that.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

RDS said:
Another two americans killed in the aftermath of the burning of the koran.

Gunman Kills 2 Americans at Afghan Ministry - TIME
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Yet, there's no outcry over this. Obama and every General up there is apologizing and begging for forgiveness because we burnt Qurans. Yet, you hear no request to stop the violence or killing of our servicemen in response to it. Someone can say all they want that we brought this on ourselves. You would also be making the claim that burning a book deserves the death penalty.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

MarineTpartier said:
Yet, there's no outcry over this. Obama and every General up there is apologizing and begging for forgiveness because we burnt Qurans. Yet, you hear no request to stop the violence or killing of our servicemen in response to it. Someone can say all they want that we brought this on ourselves. You would also be making the claim that burning a book deserves the death penalty.
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I don't mean to be rude, MTP, but I get the feeling that asking these crazy people to stop killing our guys is like asking a bear to stop mauling you when you get attacked in the forest. I don't believe that burning a book deserves the death penalty any more than taunting a bear deserves a mauling, but if you **** with a bear you are going to get attacked regardless.

I said above that we are fighting a war on their soil. It is incumbent on us to be mindful of their culture and customs. If their culture, customs, and attitudes are crazy (or if there are extremists who happen to be crazy and violent), that's not something that can change and it's not something that being outraged will solve, it's just a fact of life.
 
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Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

MarineTpartier said:
Yet, there's no outcry over this. Obama and every General up there is apologizing and begging for forgiveness because we burnt Qurans. Yet, you hear no request to stop the violence or killing of our servicemen in response to it. Someone can say all they want that we brought this on ourselves. You would also be making the claim that burning a book deserves the death penalty.
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If I am in charge I will impose the death penalty.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

Wheather it was accidental or not it was done at the detriment of their comrades.
 
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Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

StillBallin75 said:
I don't mean to be rude, MTP, but I get the feeling that asking these crazy people to stop killing our guys is like asking a bear to stop mauling you when you get attacked in the forest. I don't believe that burning a book deserves the death penalty any more than taunting a bear deserves a mauling, but if you **** with a bear you are going to get attacked regardless.

I said above that we are fighting a war on their soil. It is incumbent on us to be mindful of their culture and customs. If their culture, customs, and attitudes are crazy (or if there are extremists who happen to be crazy and violent), that's not something that can change and it's not something that being outraged will solve, it's just a fact of life.
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I understand it would do nothing, I really do. But how often does Obama come out and support or bring attention to other worthless and/or doomed causes merely for political gain? All the time. Just like any other politician. Heck, his whole State of the Union was for a doomed cause lol. He knows none of the crap he talked about is getting passed. Would it kill him (in a time where many of us in the military think that he is against us) to come out and ask for the violence to stop? If anything, just to do what a LEADER is supposed to and support his subordinates! Thats what Obama doesn't understand about the position he holds. Just his words influence people. His actions influence people. He doesn't have to pass a bill or push legislation to affect people. He can just bring attention to an issue or show support for someone and people listen. Even Bush understood that. Say what you want about Bush, but he understood the magnitude of his position and the power it wielded. He understood that his words carried weight. Clinton got that as well. Obama seems to think he's just another dude. I hate to tell him, he's not. He's the friggin President and he needs to lead.
To your second point, I will not form an opinion about the burning of the Quran's over there until the investigation reveals whether detainees where using them to pass messages. Apparently that is an allegation that is floating around right now. I heard of that happening in Iraq when I was there so it wouldn't shock me. If they don't want us to burn their "holy" book, then they shouldn't use it to plot and plan.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

RDS said:
If I am in charge I will impose the death penalty.
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I have to many infraction points to call you what you are. Wait about a week and I will have enough credit to do it though.
 
Re: Afghans vent fury over Koran burning, U.S. apologizes

MarineTpartier said:
I understand it would do nothing, I really do. But how often does Obama come out and support or bring attention to other worthless and/or doomed causes merely for political gain? All the time. Just like any other politician. Heck, his whole State of the Union was for a doomed cause lol. He knows none of the crap he talked about is getting passed. Would it kill him (in a time where many of us in the military think that he is against us) to come out and ask for the violence to stop? If anything, just to do what a LEADER is supposed to and support his subordinates! Thats what Obama doesn't understand about the position he holds. Just his words influence people. His actions influence people. He doesn't have to pass a bill or push legislation to affect people. He can just bring attention to an issue or show support for someone and people listen. Even Bush understood that. Say what you want about Bush, but he understood the magnitude of his position and the power it wielded. He understood that his words carried weight. Clinton got that as well. Obama seems to think he's just another dude. I hate to tell him, he's not. He's the friggin President and he needs to lead.
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Well, I hardly think anything Obama says here will gain anything politically - it's not the crazy violent Afghans who are voting for him, and the people he's trying to appease with those apologies aren't voting for him either. And in all honesty I don't think anything he says will affect the behavior of these Afghans who are killing folks. If you're a Pashtun and you're already set on committing violence, are the words of some President halfway around the world really supposed to have an effect on you? I'm not sure but I'm probably gonna go with no.

To your second point, I will not form an opinion about the burning of the Quran's over there until the investigation reveals whether detainees where using them to pass messages. Apparently that is an allegation that is floating around right now. I heard of that happening in Iraq when I was there so it wouldn't shock me. If they don't want us to burn their "holy" book, then they shouldn't use it to plot and plan.
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fair nuff.
 
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