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PAPER: Military action against Iran 'likely'..

AdamT said:
I thought it was pretty self explanatory. While folks like to describe Iran as a nation of wild-eyed maniacs, it is in fact perfectly rational for them to want to develop nukes for self defense.
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Fine, then it is The Iranian Regime you were refering to .... you gotta choose sides in wars .... no shame in it
 
drz-400 said:
I very strongly disagree with this. If all of the actions above fell into place what incentive would Iran have to stop developing nuclear weapons? Iran wants to become a regional power. If you give them all of those concessions you are basically handing it to them on a silver platter. It is rather naive in my opinion to think Iran will just give up on those ambitions, especially if we were to practiacly give away all of our bargaining power as you suggest.
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They would have no need of them, it would be an unnecessary cost. Unlike the US, Iran has not invaded another country in 200 years.
 
drz-400 said:
Which is why we need to provide strong incentives in the other directions. We need to let Iran know that if they continue to pursue nukes the international community is going to shun them. We need to cripple their economy, continue to pressure them, and display our power and influence over the region. Simply conceding to Iran as some suggest will do nothing to stop Iran from pursuing nukes and will greatly shift the power in their favor, that should be obvious.
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I don't think it's going to work, but it's worth trying. The downside is that it drives up the price of oil and it may cause the Iranian people to rally around the flag.
 
Mya said:
Fine, then it is The Iranian Regime you were refering to .... you gotta choose sides in wars .... no shame in it
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I was just making an observation -- not choosing sides.
 
Catawba said:
They would have no need of them, it would be an unnecessary cost. Unlike the US, Iran has not invaded another country in 200 years.
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They are willing to pursue nuclear weapons when the country is facing massive economic sanctions from the international community and you think they will just stop if we leave them alone, pack up all of our military bases, and Israel disarms nukes? Hell, why on earth do we even have a military? If we just stopped wasting money on a military no one would want to attack us...

Countries want to pursue power. They want as many resources as they can control. The world is not a happy peaceful place, it is a constant struggle for power.
 
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AdamT said:
I don't think it's going to work, but it's worth trying. The downside is that it drives up the price of oil and it may cause the Iranian people to rally around the flag.
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I agree, if Iran uses its most powerful weapon, oil, it would be painful for the world economy. However, it would also hurt them. 80% of their revenue comes from oil exports. Their people will feel the effects of this. Irans options are very limited.
 
drz-400 said:
They are willing to pursue nuclear weapons when the country is facing massive economic sanctions from the international community and you think they will just stop if we leave them alone, pack up all of our military bases, and Israel disarms nukes? Hell, why on earth do we even have a military? If we just stopped wasting money on a military no one would want to attack us...
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Now, you are beginning to get it. If we go back to defense only as the Constitution says, we create far fewer enemies.

Countries want to pursue power. They want as many resources as they can control. The world is not a happy peaceful place, it is a constant struggle for power.
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You are projecting the US mentality on another culture. Iran hasn't invaded another country in 200 years? How many countries has the US invaded in the same period? What resources does Israel have that Iran needs?
 
Catawba said:
Now, you are beginning to get it. If we go back to defense only as the Constitution says, we create far fewer enemies.
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You and I have fundamentally different views of the world. I don't think our debate here will change either one of our minds. I do find it odd that you argue that countries will pursue their own self interests in self defense (why you think Iran wants a nuke), but will fail to continue to engage in their own competitive self interests in pursuit of more power and resources. Its seem inconsistent and naive in my view.

You are projecting the US mentality on another culture. Iran hasn't invaded another country in 200 years? How many countries has the US invaded in the same period? What resources does Israel have that Iran needs?
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Iran does not want to pursue its self interests (power, land, resources)? Why do they want nukes again in your opinion? Why would they fail to continue to do so if we give them the chance to acquire nukes more easily?
 
drz-400 said:
[You and I have fundamentally different views of the world. I don't think our debate here will change either one of our minds. I do find it odd that you argue that countries will pursue their own self interests in self defense (why you think Iran wants a nuke), but will fail to continue to engage in their own competitive self interests in pursuit of more power and resources. Its seem inconsistent and naive in my view.
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Yes, we do have different world views. I take a Constitutional position on military. I believe in defending oneself from attack. I also understand we have a serious debt problem from our past optional wars dating back to Vietnam, that we still have not paid for. [/I]Again, you seem to be projecting Western desire for world hegemony on another culture that has not demonstrated a desire for world hegemony.
We were told that unless we stopped Communist Vietnam, the rest of the world would fall to communism. Did that happen, or have we been trading partners with communist Vietnam for decades? We just withdrew from a needless war with Iraq that cost hundreds of thousands of lives and $2 trillion dollars of National debt. What is the old saying, those that refuse to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it? The US must have an extremely short memory.



Iran does not want to pursue its self interests (power, land, resources)? Why do they want nukes again in your opinion?
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Defense!!!! They are surrounded by 45 US bases, subs, and Israel, all armed with nukes to the teeth. I would be as busy as possible building nukes for defense if I were them.

Why would they fail to continue to do so if we give them the chance to acquire nukes more easily?
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I thought we already went through this? If Israel had no nukes and the nuclear powered US bases and subs were not surrounding them, they would have no need of them.
 
EagleAye said:
You know what, Mya, I didn't care for them either. But honestly, justabubba DID specify a difference between the Israeli government and the people of Israel. And a lot of folks, including yours truly, have used some unkind words about the ****heads governing Iran. I have had some unkind words about our own ****heads in government. So fair is fair after all. Let's just suck it up and move on. Most people in government anywhere are idiots anyway, so it's not like they don't deserve it.
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My problem is with people who claim that a critisism of the Government of Israel is an attack on jewish people as a whole. Anti-Semite.

I fail to see how their government has anything to do with the religion. Because, if it does, then that means the religion and the people who follow it are ****ed up. I separate the two altogether. I have no problem with the jewish people. I think they are oakay in my book. But their arrogant and expansive government pisses me off. The whole "God's Chosen People" thing is no excuse for unconditional support for their government. Especially since that's all religious mumbo-jumbo to begin with.
 
drz-400 said:
You and I have fundamentally different views of the world. I don't think our debate here will change either one of our minds. I do find it odd that you argue that countries will pursue their own self interests in self defense (why you think Iran wants a nuke), but will fail to continue to engage in their own competitive self interests in pursuit of more power and resources. Its seem inconsistent and naive in my view.



Iran does not want to pursue its self interests (power, land, resources)? Why do they want nukes again in your opinion? Why would they fail to continue to do so if we give them the chance to acquire nukes more easily?
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Iran wants a nuke because Iraq and Syria were bombed.
 
sharon said:
Iran wants a nuke because Iraq and Syria were bombed.
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George Will argued early on that the lesson of Iraq was that if you were going to deal with the US, you'd better have a Nuke. But he's just a liberal radical commie.

:coffeepap
 
Boo Radley said:
George Will argued early on that the lesson of Iraq was that if you were going to deal with the US, you'd better have a Nuke. But he's just a liberal radical commie.

:coffeepap
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Hahaha.. George Will is on point.............
 
Boo Radley said:
George Will argued early on that the lesson of Iraq was that if you were going to deal with the US, you'd better have a Nuke. But he's just a liberal radical commie.

:coffeepap
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Yep -- look what happened when Bush tried to play hardball with North Korea and slapped them in his "AXIS OF EVIL". Four years later they conducted their first underground nuclear bomb detonation.
 
Blue_State said:
They wanted nukes before that.
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Not exactly.. they have wanted nuclear power since the mid 1970s.. Germany was building a power plant and the US was training their nuclear techs.
 
sharon said:
Not exactly.. they have wanted nuclear power since the mid 1970s.. Germany was building a power plant and the US was training their nuclear techs.
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At what time would you say they decided to attempt to make nukes? 2003?
 
Blue_State said:
At what time would you say they decided to attempt to make nukes? 2003?
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Never.... funny no human on earth can prove they are even pursuing them to any binding extent.
But hell, western news says they are.
 
Blue_State said:
At what time would you say they decided to attempt to make nukes? 2003?
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The threats to bomb their nuclear power program began around late 2002 if I remembr correctly..

Its NOT irrational to protect your infrastructure development in view of the history with Iraq and Syria..
 
MKULTRABOY said:
Never.... funny no human on earth can prove they are even pursuing them to any binding extent.
But hell, western news says they are.
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Good point. They seem to be going down the same path as Iraq. They being the newspapers, nuclear watchdogs, UN. Just bad all around.
 
sharon said:
The threats to bomb their nuclear power program began around late 2002 if I remembr correctly..

Its NOT irrational to protect your infrastructure development in view of the history with Iraq and Syria..
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I would try to protect against us too. We have this uncanny ability to invade those who we put into power and are of no use to anymore.
 
Blue_State said:
Good point. They seem to be going down the same path as Iraq. They being the newspapers, nuclear watchdogs, UN. Just bad all around.
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Yeah... total smoking gun. When we invade and they don't have a nuke half the country can stare drooling with **** eating grins and pretend that somehow were still justified to invade by some means other than we stated.

sucks...
 
Blue_State said:
I would try to protect against us too. We have this uncanny ability to invade those who we put into power and are of no use to anymore.
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Well, if Israel or the US bombs their 22 nuclear facilities, we will also destroy their oilfields and refineries.

iranOil-fields.gif
 
sharon said:
Well, if Israel or the US bombs their 22 nuclear facilities, we will also destroy their oilfields and refineries.
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How do you figure? This map doesn't even show the 22 nuclear sites.
 
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