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Affirmative Action - Could Justice Alito's Vote Change the Game?

TurtleDude said:
you fail again-I saw dozens of black applicants whose parents were wealthy get breaks over far smarter and poorer white kids
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You did? You saw their highschool transcripts and LSAT scores? How'd that happen?
 
AdamT said:
You did? You saw their highschool transcripts and LSAT scores? How'd that happen?
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these were guys I used to spend a lot of time hanging with and drinking with-and HS transcripts don't matter when applying to law school

tell me how a Guy with a less than 3.2 got into a school that rejected hundreds of white guys with 3.7 or so GPAs from good schools. when the Harvard Dean of Admissions came to Yale she basically said if you aren't at least a 3.8 you had less than a 1-15 chance of getting in
 
TurtleDude said:
tell me what Obama had with his less than a 3.2 GPA (remember 3.72 was in the bottom quarter) that merited entrance? this ought to be fun
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I don't know what Obama's GPA was, nor do you. That aside, what he had was an interesting life story. Raised by a single mom and his grandparents, lived some years in Indonesia, a record of public advocacy, worked for several years after graduation for interesting employers. Apparently the application process worked pretty well, given that he wound up being elected president of the law review and graduating magna cum laude.
 
TurtleDude said:
these were guys I used to spend a lot of time hanging with and drinking with-and HS transcripts don't matter when applying to law school

tell me how a Guy with a less than 3.2 got into a school that rejected hundreds of white guys with 3.7 or so GPAs from good schools. when the Harvard Dean of Admissions came to Yale she basically said if you aren't at least a 3.8 you had less than a 1-15 chance of getting in
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Eh, I meant college transcripts. So you're hanging out drinking and the topic comes around to, "hey, what was your college GPA?" Really?
 
TurtleDude said:
you fail again-I saw dozens of black applicants whose parents were wealthy get breaks over far smarter and poorer white kids
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The issue wasn't really a matter of them being black, but them being wealthy. Money can buy an education long before it buys intelligence.
 
TurtleDude said:
More BS-we are talking about law schools and when a bunch of blacks with grossly inferior numbers constantly get into schools that constantly reject whites with much higher scores the only obvious answer is race

Legacies-give me a friggin break

since you apparently know almost nothing about law school admissions, they are far more numbers oriented than college. athletic prowess doesn't cut it. legacy admissions are far far less likely (the founder of the STANFORD LAW REVIEW and on its board of governors didn't get in but he managed to make the law review at a fairy equal law school)
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You are deliberately side stepping the point. I gave you a situation not dependent on race. It happens. Because it happens, you can't believe GPA and SAT mean that much. There are other standards. And race can't be the reason, by law.
 
danarhea said:
Is this such a bad thing? I believe in Brown v. Board of Education, which stated that no decision on education can be made because of race. In 2003, the Grutter case established a "racial preference" in university admissions, which, IMHO, is unconstitutional. Most likely, SCOTUS is going to revisit that case, and reverse that decision. Thus, the spirit of Brown v. Board of Education will be upheld.

Discussion?

Article is here.
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Race,and sex should never be a factor in getting a job,going to school or anything else.Affirmative action should be illegal.
 
jamesrage said:
Race,and sex should never be a factor in getting a job,going to school or anything else.Affirmative action should be illegal.
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if we lived in a society where one's race or gender did not cost them opportunities, then i would agree with you
but because we do not yet reside in that society, AA is needed to offset the existing bias
 
jamesrage said:
Race,and sex should never be a factor in getting a job,going to school or anything else.Affirmative action should be illegal.
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It will happen with or without the law. The law says you can't discriminate due to race, religion or gender. Remove the law, and it will still happen. Make a law saying we can pay no attention to either, and it will still happen. As it is now, at least we can challenge those who break the law.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yes, people break the law. But when do we blame the law for those who break it?
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this basic common sense will go ignored along with other facts. What people actually dont like (myself included) are people breaking the law or making up thier own system that has NOTHING to do with AA/EO. I have no clue how people blame AA/EO in these cases. Its like blaming child molestation on all religious figures or judging all cops by a bad one. Its stupid, irrational, dishonest and very narrow sighted. :shrug:
 
AdamT said:
I don't know what Obama's GPA was, nor do you. That aside, what he had was an interesting life story. Raised by a single mom and his grandparents, lived some years in Indonesia, a record of public advocacy, worked for several years after graduation for interesting employers. Apparently the application process worked pretty well, given that he wound up being elected president of the law review and graduating magna cum laude.
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wow, Obama slurpage at its best

what we do know is that BHO did not graduate from columbia with even distinction or cum laude meaning he had below a B+ average and friends of his told the WSJ he wasn't much of a student.

and saying the process worked well is moronic based on what he did in school

My freshman roommate at Yale was said to be the most academically qualified guy in my class. He had a perfect SAT score at age 13, he graduated with the highest GPA of one of the top three prep schools in the country-his GPA was the highest in the schools 100+ year history. He won two national math exam competitions-including one that was open to college students when he was 15 getting the first perfect score in one's history. He never made it through freshman year due to drugs

Using your "logic" the admissions committee should not have let him in to the school
 
TurtleDude said:
wow, Obama slurpage at its best

what we do know is that BHO did not graduate from columbia with even distinction or cum laude meaning he had below a B+ average and friends of his told the WSJ he wasn't much of a student.

and saying the process worked well is moronic based on what he did in school

My freshman roommate at Yale was said to be the most academically qualified guy in my class. He had a perfect SAT score at age 13, he graduated with the highest GPA of one of the top three prep schools in the country-his GPA was the highest in the schools 100+ year history. He won two national math exam competitions-including one that was open to college students when he was 15 getting the first perfect score in one's history. He never made it through freshman year due to drugs

Using your "logic" the admissions committee should not have let him in to the school
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It's not their fault that their time machine broke. :mrgreen:
 
TurtleDude said:
wow, Obama slurpage at its best

what we do know is that BHO did not graduate from columbia with even distinction or cum laude meaning he had below a B+ average and friends of his told the WSJ he wasn't much of a student.

and saying the process worked well is moronic based on what he did in school

My freshman roommate at Yale was said to be the most academically qualified guy in my class. He had a perfect SAT score at age 13, he graduated with the highest GPA of one of the top three prep schools in the country-his GPA was the highest in the schools 100+ year history. He won two national math exam competitions-including one that was open to college students when he was 15 getting the first perfect score in one's history. He never made it through freshman year due to drugs

Using your "logic" the admissions committee should not have let him in to the school
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Bush was a c student. Not only that, by your standard, he'd have never gotten into any prestigeous school. His grades and scores were too low to qualify. But no one can challenge him or do anything for the qualified people he pushed out.
 
Boo Radley said:
Bush was a c student. Not only that, by your standard, he'd have never gotten into any prestigeous school. His grades and scores were too low to qualify. But no one can challenge him or do anything for the qualified people he pushed out.
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quit refuting them with facts
 
Boo Radley said:
Bush was a c student. Not only that, by your standard, he'd have never gotten into any prestigeous school. His grades and scores were too low to qualify. But no one can challenge him or do anything for the qualified people he pushed out.
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Do we know about Obama's GPA?
 
hazlnut said:
Have you been to an inner city school lately?
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Have you been to an inner city school PTA meeting? Hardly anyone there, and not a dad in the building. THERE is the problem.
 
Meathead said:
Nobody knows, but still a lot of people tell us he's a genius. You see, he would have to release them. But then he probably doesn't want to floor anybody with his academic prowess.
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but there is at least one poster who insists that Obama was without the grades/scores to have been admitted to the university he entered
how can that be established if we do not know his grades/scores
 
Erod said:
Have you been to an inner city school PTA meeting? Hardly anyone there, and not a dad in the building. THERE is the problem.
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you nailed it
when my wife was teaching at a low income elementary school, with half the students ESL, she and the other teachers were required to join/pay PTA dues so that they would have attendees at the PTA events
to be fair, some of the ESL moms explained that their work hours prevented them from attending and others insisted they would come but had no transportation (the school was two blocks from the public bus stop)
 
justabubba said:
you nailed it
when my wife was teaching at a low income elementary school, with half the students ESL, she and the other teachers were required to join/pay PTA dues so that they would have attendees at the PTA events
to be fair, some of the ESL moms explained that their work hours prevented them from attending and others insisted they would come but had no transportation (the school was two blocks from the public bus stop)
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Your wife I'm sure knows how relatively easy (and I'll bet enjoyable) it is to teach a kid with involved parents, versus what a nightmare it can be to teach a kid whose parents couldn't care less.

My kids do GREAT in school. They're not geniuses; they have parents who demand they take it seriously and applaud and support their efforts every day. (They play select sports, too, which I believe fosters confidence and accountability just as much.)
 
Erod said:
Your wife I'm sure knows how relatively easy (and I'll bet enjoyable) it is to teach a kid with involved parents, versus what a nightmare it can be to teach a kid whose parents couldn't care less.

My kids do GREAT in school. They're not geniuses; they have parents who demand they take it seriously and applaud and support their efforts every day. (They play select sports, too, which I believe fosters confidence and accountability just as much.)
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but this is the crux of the reason why i defend AA (altho i believe it should be revised to focus on helping those based on economic condition rather than race)

our kids are the future. and i would prefer to have educated kids rather than drop outs my tax dollars will
go toward to cover their policing, welfare, incarceration and appearances before the court

and if they do not have supportive parents such as you and your wife, to cause them to recognize the need for a good education, to require them to attend school, to expect them to strive for academic success, then that impetus to succeed in school must come elsewhere - IF we actually want them to succeed in school

this need for government intervention when students have lousy parents is the very issue that caused me to walk away from the libertarian party. we can continue to waste our precious tax dollars not educating these kids or we can actually make our education dollars well spent. AA efforts, to provide opportunities for the underclass, remain necessary. we should pray for the day when such efforts are no longer found needed
 
justabubba said:
but there is at least one poster who insists that Obama was without the grades/scores to have been admitted to the university he entered
how can that be established if we do not know his grades/scores
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You've got an affirmative action (he did say he had benefited from AA) president whose intellect and academic achievements are in question and who will not release his academic record. At least that gives credence to the other poster.
 
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