• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Catholics hear anti-Obama letter in church

muciti said:
I was with you until this last line.


This is no better than being racists and assuming all black guys commit crimes, or that all gays have aids or anything else. I thought liberals, like your "lean" says you are, were tolerant. Because some priests have molested children you accusing every priest of it? That is pretty ****ty of you. Hating the people of a faith is no worse than people who are hating on a race, sexual preference or anything else.
Click to expand...

DON'T put words in my mouth. i did not accuse all catholic priests of molesting children.

i don't hate people of faith, i hate hypocrites. having been a catholic until recently, i can tell you that everyone i knew used contraceptives, and my uncle was abused by priests. i am not accusing all, just shedding a little light on the people who can't set their own house order finding a reason to be outraged that their FOR PROFIT entities have to include contraception in their insurance plan. FPR PROFIT means just that, and they fall under the same rules as any other company.
 
Last edited:
sharon said:
If 1/3 of the congregation had your courage, they would have stood up and walked out too.
Click to expand...

I have to wonder what kind of “courage” it involves to be a member of a religion, to consider one's self a practicing member in good standing of that religion, and yet to have so little regard for the moral standards for which that religion stands.

That doesn't sound very much like anything that I would call “courage”.
 
Last edited:
liblady said:
i don't hate people of faith, i hate hypocrites. having been a catholic until recently, i can tell you that everyone i knew used contraceptives, and my uncle was abused by priests. i am not accusing all, just shedding a little light on the people who can't set their own house order finding a reason to be outraged that their FOR PROFIT entities have to include contraception in their insurance plan. FPR PROFIT means just that, and they fall under the same rules as any other company.
Click to expand...

I know tons of catholics who do as well. Thats not what I have a problem with. A small % of catholics molest people. I can guarentee you that their have been muslims who have done it too. Or christians or jews. Blacks, whites, asians, straight guys, gay guys, women men, old and young. You name it. There are people of ever race, religion, sex, creed ect that have all done horrible things. It does not mean they are all like that. that is profiling. It is wrong.
 
bennymac5151 said:
Yes sharon, because I read the article. In fact, the article in question focuses on the insurance benefits provided by those institutions and the subsequent requirements enacted by HHS. However, the point about federal funding is a good one. I agree that if they receive federal funding then they should abide by the rules. However, I don't think the rules should be that way... especially considering that the "morning after pill" is part of this list.

Look, my view on this is that we only get ourselves into trouble when we force certain groups to go against their moral convictions. It is not worth alienating the Catholic Church to ask this of them, and federal funds should never go to abortions considering how divisive of an issue it is. If half the country strongly opposes something, then we should not make it part of the national budget. This is exactly why federalism is a much better way to deal with these things.
Click to expand...

Not all employees are Catholic and NOBODY is forced to take the morning after pill or use contraception.
 
TheNextEra said:
Well, here's the thing. I could say the same about the Catholic hospitals. Why are they getting pissed over something so trivial? I mean, they are hiring non-Catholics who do not follow the religion. They have to realize that these people may live a lifestyle that is against the church. Why is it a big deal to offer it to them? The Catholics that don't want Birth Control don't have to take it.

Works both ways ;)
Click to expand...

I could see how you would think that. However, I would simply point to the first amendment and the fact that they are a private religious organization. I don't think they are necessarily correct, but it doesn't matter. They have the right to be wrong. That's liberty.
 
sharon said:
Not all employees are Catholic and NOBODY is forced to take the morning after pill or use contraception.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should read the article closely. It simply states that:

Sebelius has specified that the list will contain all forms of birth control approved by the Food and Drug Administration, including methods that are controversial — such as the emergency contraceptives Plan B and Ella, commonly referred to as “morning-after pills,” as well as sterilization./QUOTE]

Of course they aren't forcing anyone to take these things, but they are being forced to provide them upon request. Yes, not all employees are Catholic. That does nothing to diminish the fact that the institution is Catholic, and therefore has a set of beliefs that are CATHOLIC. Just let these people do as they please, pursuant to their religious beliefs... its in the constitution afterall...
Click to expand...
 
muciti said:
I know tons of catholics who do as well. Thats not what I have a problem with. A small % of catholics molest people. I can guarentee you that their have been muslims who have done it too. Or christians or jews. Blacks, whites, asians, straight guys, gay guys, women men, old and young. You name it. There are people of ever race, religion, sex, creed ect that have all done horrible things. It does not mean they are all like that. that is profiling. It is wrong.
Click to expand...

and again, i never stated that all priests molest children. and i don't believe it's such a small %. one source puts it at 4.3%.

Catholic Priest Abuse Scandal Statistics from the Executive Summary by John Jay College of Criminal Justice



Vatican investigated 4,000 cases of child sex abuse in the last 10 years, U.S. cardinal reveals | Mail Online
 
bennymac5151 said:
I could see how you would think that. However, I would simply point to the first amendment and the fact that they are a private religious organization. I don't think they are necessarily correct, but it doesn't matter. They have the right to be wrong. That's liberty.
Click to expand...

Yes, but in the "for profit" world and different rules apply in that world compared to the "non-profit" world. If it is such a terrible issue for them, they have the CHOICE to return back to the non-profit world.

Again, they can't have their cake and eat it too. Compromises will have to be made on their part to continue to operate in both worlds.
 
liblady said:
and again, i never stated that all priests molest children. and i don't believe it's such a small %. one source puts it at 4.3%.

Catholic Priest Abuse Scandal Statistics from the Executive Summary by John Jay College of Criminal Justice



Vatican investigated 4,000 cases of child sex abuse in the last 10 years, U.S. cardinal reveals | Mail Online
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but yes you did.

catholic priests also molest children. why should ANYONE listen to them? self righteous assholes.
Click to expand...

That is your quote above is it not? Furthermore there are and have been quite a few priests. I just read through that report and that information is very faulty. First off it is taking into consideration the number of accusations. There is no denying that at least some of those accusations are false. Secondly it is assuming that every person who came forward accused a different priest. Saying there are 10,000 priests, and 1,000 accusations does not mean that 10% of them are molesting. (using simple numbers to prove my point). Which is what the article does. Many of those kids could have accused the same priests. And the article is also projecting or attempting to project the number of people who havent come forward which is far from accurate. I'm sorry but that isnt holding up to anyone except those who want to believe it.
 
bennymac5151 said:
Perhaps you should read the article closely. It simply states that:

Sebelius has specified that the list will contain all forms of birth control approved by the Food and Drug Administration, including methods that are controversial — such as the emergency contraceptives Plan B and Ella, commonly referred to as “morning-after pills,” as well as sterilization./QUOTE]

Of course they aren't forcing anyone to take these things, but they are being forced to provide them upon request. Yes, not all employees are Catholic. That does nothing to diminish the fact that the institution is Catholic, and therefore has a set of beliefs that are CATHOLIC. Just let these people do as they please, pursuant to their religious beliefs... its in the constitution afterall...
Click to expand...


The hospital is a corporation and subject to the same laws and taxes as other corporations.

Catholics can still do as they please....
Click to expand...
 
bennymac5151 said:
Of course they aren't forcing anyone to take these things, but they are being forced to provide them upon request. Yes, not all employees are Catholic. That does nothing to diminish the fact that the institution is Catholic, and therefore has a set of beliefs that are CATHOLIC. Just let these people do as they please, pursuant to their religious beliefs... its in the constitution afterall...
Click to expand...


Nobody is FORCING them to run a "for-profit" hospital. Therefore they do have a choice. They can either abide by the new rules or they can go back to their "non-profit" status and be free to run things how they want to. Liberty is about choices and they have that choice.
 
TheNextEra said:
Short answer? Yes. Once you join the "for profit" world, things change for everybody not just the church. Charities in general (non-religious) that operate in the "for-profit" world have to follow the same set of guidelines set forth.

Again, if the church doesn't like it, then stay out of the "for profit" world. The problem is the church wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want to make money but they don't want to play by the same rules as everyone else. Sorry, but I feel no sympathy for that.
Click to expand...
Precisely. The CC wants it both ways and they're not being catered to and now they're throwing a hissy fit.
 
TheNextEra said:
Yes, but in the "for profit" world and different rules apply in that world compared to the "non-profit" world. If it is such a terrible issue for them, they have the CHOICE to return back to the non-profit world.

Again, they can't have their cake and eat it too. Compromises will have to be made on their part to continue to operate in both worlds.
Click to expand...

I think that's a fairly reasonable point of view. I guess I simply believe that the "for profit" world should not require such a difference. Why shouldn't they be able to make a profit and still be religiously oriented? I question the entire premise I guess, but if that's the law, then you're right, the best thing for them to do would be to go non-profit, assuming there is no alternative.
 
muciti said:
I'm sorry but yes you did.



That is your quote above is it not? Furthermore there are and have been quite a few priests. I just read through that report and that information is very faulty. First off it is taking into consideration the number of accusations. There is no denying that at least some of those accusations are false. Secondly it is assuming that every person who came forward accused a different priest. Saying there are 10,000 priests, and 1,000 accusations does not mean that 10% of them are molesting. (using simple numbers to prove my point). Which is what the article does. Many of those kids could have accused the same priests. And the article is also projecting or attempting to project the number of people who havent come forward which is far from accurate. I'm sorry but that isnt holding up to anyone except those who want to believe it.
Click to expand...



There is a very large number of catholic priests, and catholics overall who are great people. You are discriminating for no reason. Learn some tolerance and stop justifying your hatred of an entire group of people.
 
neocon1225 said:
I respect two things primarily about Obama, 1: he doesn't pander to the stupid Israel-first lobby and 2: he doesn't pander to archaic bronze age fairy tales when setting public policy. Perhaps if the Catholic Church didn't cover up and protect pedophilic Priests for decades I'd care a little bit more about their "conscience." It's highly absurd that they believe condoms are immoral yet the Bishops who aided in the protection of pedophilia are still in positions of power and influence.
Click to expand...


This has nothing to do with the abuse issues within the church. Please take your troll elsewhere. Thank you.


j-mac
 
All for profit businesses and organizations should be held to the same standard regardless of religious affiliation. I don't believe that health insurance should cover anything regarding birth control or sex in general (things for sex not things as a result of sex like pregnancy, or std's). But since health insurance does, these church organizations should be held to the same standard.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
I have to wonder what kind of “courage” it involves to be a member of a religion, to consider one's self a practicing member in good standing of that religion, and yet to have so little regard for the moral standards for which that religion stands.

That doesn't sound very much like anything that I would call “courage”.
Click to expand...

because too many catholics are "cafeteria" catholics. trust me, i know. they comply with the tenets when it suits them. to be outraged over this is nutty. no on is forcing anyone to have an abortion, or use birth control. and no one is forcing the church to pay for those services, either.
 
bennymac5151 said:
I think that's a fairly reasonable point of view. I guess I simply believe that the "for profit" world should not require such a difference. Why shouldn't they be able to make a profit and still be religiously oriented? I question the entire premise I guess, but if that's the law, then you're right, the best thing for them to do would be to go non-profit, assuming there is no alternative.
Click to expand...


And your point is valid. I personally wouldn't choose this path of making insurances have the option to do this, but I can see why others do.
 
TheNextEra said:
I'll try to find a better source, but for now :

Christian Health Share Ministries' Exempt from ObamaCare - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com




Basically what I'm getting is "non-profit" should not have to follow the healthcare law and therefore shouldn't have to follow the condom/birth control part of it either. However, hospitals and other "profit" organizations owned by the church will have to abide by the Healthcare law.
Click to expand...



The way I read that is that if the person is a Catholic, or working for the Church. Now from what I understand, is that Catholic hospitals, Catholic charities, and other groups affiliated with the Catholic Church are being told that they must comply or face the force of government.

Now, tell me, in what world do liberals get to scream bloddy murder anytime they even connect 7 degrees of seperation in walling off Church and State, yet, when Obama wants to whack the Catholic Church it is perfectly fine?


j-mac
 
Isn't there something about electoral politics and tax-exempt status?

I understand they're upset, but they've basically been telling parishoners for the last few years "Vote Republican, or you're going to Hell."
 
muciti said:
All for profit businesses and organizations should be held to the same standard regardless of religious affiliation. I don't believe that health insurance should cover anything regarding birth control or sex in general (things for sex not things as a result of sex like pregnancy, or std's). But since health insurance does, these church organizations should be held to the same standard.
Click to expand...

Ah yes.. punish them for their sins.. like over eating or under exercising or working too hard.........
 
liblady said:
because too many catholics are "cafeteria" catholics. trust me, i know. they comply with the tenets when it suits them. to be outraged over this is nutty. no on is forcing anyone to have an abortion, or use birth control. and no one is forcing the church to pay for those services, either.
Click to expand...


This is simply untrue. period.


j-mac
 
muciti said:
I'm sorry but yes you did.



That is your quote above is it not? Furthermore there are and have been quite a few priests. I just read through that report and that information is very faulty. First off it is taking into consideration the number of accusations. There is no denying that at least some of those accusations are false. Secondly it is assuming that every person who came forward accused a different priest. Saying there are 10,000 priests, and 1,000 accusations does not mean that 10% of them are molesting. (using simple numbers to prove my point). Which is what the article does. Many of those kids could have accused the same priests. And the article is also projecting or attempting to project the number of people who havent come forward which is far from accurate. I'm sorry but that isnt holding up to anyone except those who want to believe it.
Click to expand...

silly. i said catholics priests molest children, which is true. i did not say all, so get off it. and no, if you look at the links i provided, you'll find that multiple molestations were accounted for. i am not discriminating, either, so get the **** off that too. this isn't abut catholic priests, and i'm sorry i sued them in my initial repsonse. simply put, the letter that was read to parishioners was misleading, and the bishop knew that.
 
j-mac said:
The way I read that is that if the person is a Catholic, or working for the Church. Now from what I understand, is that Catholic hospitals, Catholic charities, and other groups affiliated with the Catholic Church are being told that they must comply or face the force of government.

Now, tell me, in what world do liberals get to scream bloddy murder anytime they even connect 7 degrees of seperation in walling off Church and State, yet, when Obama wants to whack the Catholic Church it is perfectly fine?


j-mac
Click to expand...

Again, that's not how I read it and it wouldn't make sense the way you said it. The way I read it is businesses ran "for profit" have to abide by this new law whereas "non-profit" doesn't.

Please drop the whole attitude of liberals whacking the Catholic church because their not. If it's non-profit, they are covered and excluded.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom