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Court: CA gay-marriage ban is unconstitutional

If we allow Prop 8 to overturn, it's only going to lead to other Props getting overturned. :2razz:

You forget this is no way a done deal. All 11 judges of the 9th circuit will have to rule on it plus the SCOTUS.
 
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You forget this is no way a done deal. All 11 judges of the 9th circuit will have to rule on it plus the SCOTUS>

I would love for it to go to the 11 judges on the 9th before it goes to SCOTUS. The case could only get stronger.
 
I would love for it to go to the 11 judges on the 9th before it goes to SCOTUS. The case could only get stronger.

Your probably right. that whole court is made up mostly of activist judges that is why their decisions are overturned so often. I hope it goes straight to the SCOTUS.
 
I just finished reading Smith's dissenting opinion. This section pretty much sums it up..."

I'll have to read how the court came to the decision.

If they came to the decision based on Gender inequality, then what this Judges dissenting opinion states IS incredibly weak because it justifes it at a lower level than gender discrimination requires.

If they came to the decision based on Sexual Preference discrimination, then this Judges dissenting opinion is relatively worth while and it'll come down as to whether or not the SCOTUS believes that sexual orientation needs to be raised to a higher level under the EPC.
 
Committed gay couples deserve equal protection under the 14th Amendment. No rational argument denies that, and indeed the Prop 8 people have stated as much.

What the Prop 8 people object to is the method gay couples are employing to obtain equal protection.

Marriage is and always has been in the time-honored cultural tradition a committed union "between a man and a woman as husband and wife". That's the definition of marriage, the definition of marriage, and that's a given no-brainer, not a matter for rational conjecture. Historical tiny anectdotal occurences of ignorant or brash violations do not in any way change the definition of marriage.

Those who support Prop 8 see things as they truly are and wish to continue to respect the time-honored tradition of marriage as it truly is.

Gays, however, in their defense, have a right to equal protection under the law in union of committed couples, just as married people do.

The problem here is that marriage would have to be redefined to include gays, and that's a ludricrous notion to Prop 8 supporters, as then "marriage" would no longer mean what it always has been to them: a time-honored cultural tradition between a man and a woman as husband and wife which thereby definitively has great meaning to them. The word "marriage" simply can't be redefined to include gays as it would then cease to be marriage by all that is important historically in making marriage meaningful throughout history.

Equal protection is really the issue here, truly the only rational issue.

So what is the solution to give equal protection to committed gay couples?

Simple: expand the definition of civil union contracts to include the same legal protections as marriage contracts.

This solves everyone's problems: 1) gay couples get equal protection, and they can create a separate unique term to describe that special civil union, 2) straight couples retain meaningful value in their time honored tradition of mariage.

So why isn't that the direction being taken?

Because gay people have waited long enough, their leaders say, for such action to occur, and it's not occurring. We're tired of waiting, they say, as it takes too long to do things the correct way.

So gay leaders decided to push the issue by attempting to redefine a long-defined cultural tradition -- marriage -- to remove the foundational "man and a woman as husband and wife", which is, rationally, a ludicrous suggestion.

But where democracy exists, anything is possible .. and gay leaders reasoned this approach was a win-win for them. Either they would incredibly succeed, thereby instantly guaranteeing and equal protection avenue for gay couples, or they would fail but so rally everyone's attention that civil unions would be modified en masse across the country to grant committed gay couples their constitutionally guaranteed right to equal protection.

However, gay leaders neglected, in their effort, to be considerate of the great majority -- married couples (straight by definition) -- they would offend. In fact, many gay leaders simply expressed that they could care less about what married couples (straight by definition) thought about the matter. Indeed, gay leaders, so filled with animosity toward those they accused of blocking gay couples' equal protection rights, may not have realized their egregious approach would most certainly be an offense to others .. resulting, understandably in the Prop 8 action.

Those who argue in favor of gays having equal protection under the law by ludicrously redefining the traditionaly protected word "marriage" are too often unethically looking the other way at the very real damage being done to the time-honored tradition of marriage in the eyes of those who respect it for what it truly is: between a man and a woman as husband and wife.

I find it rather hypocritical that those gays and liberals who rage about injustice are being insensitive to the injustice they themselves are attempting to do to an entire class of people in this matter: married couples (straight by definition).

Married people -- straight by definition -- via the supporters of Prop 8 are simply saying that marriage belongs to us by meaningfully valued definition and that gays, though they have the right to equal protection, have no right to break in and steal from us what we so greatly value: our term "marriage" and its meaning.

That's a most valid complaint, and if the shoe were on the other foot I'm pretty sure gay leaders would more easily incline to agree.

This issue really isn't about whether gays have the right to equal protection, it's about the method they're employing to secure it: invasive thievery of a time-honored institution that is greatly valued as meaningful to those who have participated in it as it truly is: between a man and a woman as husband and wife.

Gay leaders would do well to realize that the very people they are invading and stealing from here are in favor of supporting their (gay) equal protection rights for committed couples. It just seems really stupid, therefore, for gay leaders to antagonize a great majority like this that supports their goal, as that can't serve them well in the long-run.

It is imporant for gay leaders to understand that gays comprise only about eight to nine percent of the population, and although their very small numbers in no way means their committed couples are not entitled to equal protection under the law, their present approach of invading and stealing a time-honored tradition from those who value its meaning is without a question an act of tyranny of the minority.

Gays may lament that their sexual orientation that exists through no choice of their own rightly prevents them from "marrying" .. and yeah, it is kind of sad, like it's sad that a man with no legs really wants to play pro football .. but can't, obviously. But in no way does such frustration justify the invasive thievery gay leaders are advocating to secure equal protection. Those of us who live with challenges must play the hand that was dealt us, and without selfishly making others miserable because we feel "cheated" by God or fate or whatever.

Liberals, I would argue, not surprisingly support gay leaders in their invasive thievery method of securing equal protection, which they do because their pre-conceived ideology demands that they follow liberal party philosophy even if it means commiting an egregious act against another segment of the population.

Liberals would do well to realize that ignoring the meaningful tradition of others that in no way, by time-honored definition, offends gays or prevents them from securing their equal protection rights through honorable means, only leads to an attitude of war and increased animosity between straights and gays. Liberals would do well, if they really are the "peace lovers" they say they are, not to embrace quick-fix shortcuts that come at the angering expense of an innocent group of people: those who value marriage (straight by definition).

And for liberals to "claim" to not see this real issue as I've presented, or pooh-pooh it as being "less imporant" than securing equal protection for committed gay couples by egregious quick-fix means, are, well, likely not very bright .. or honorable .. and reflects ignorance and insensitivity on the part of liberals.

This invasive thievery method of securing equal protection for gay couples is not progress.

Great wars have understandably been faught over matters such as these .. and understandably so.

A word to the wise.

The 14th amendment says nothing about marriage be it straight or gay....when the originators signed it marriage was not eveen considered. They would roll over in their graves if they knew that a few activist gays and a whole bunch of Liberals were using it for this reason.
 
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Why can't marriage be altered?
 
If the SCOTUS determined it was unconstituional it would not be permitted by law. The passage of DOMA, which codifies the non-recognition of SSM at the federal level, is evidence enough.

Laws have to be challenged before the SCOTUS is allowed to declare them constitutional or unconstitutional. If no one ever challenges the law, then the SCOTUS can't touch it, even if it is unconstitutional.

However, there are a lot of cases on their way up to the SCOTUS involving the constitutionality of DOMA. One of them is bound to hit the mark and take down DOMA. Hell, and even the SCOTUS gets things wrong. There have been several landmark cases in the past which overturned previous SCOTUS rulings.

Plus, remember when DOMA was passed, many states still had laws legally in place against sodomy and being gay.
 
NP, you have been using this slippery slope argument for as long as I've known you at DP. It has been shown to be nothing but bunk many times in the past, and it is STILL nothing but bunk, today.

CC you are wrong. There are already groups in Utah lining up to see what happens on this issue. If gay marriage is approved why shouldn't they be allowed to marry 1 or a dozen partners. You don't want to discriminate against gays so how can you discriminate against them?
 
CC you are wrong. There are already groups in Utah lining up to see what happens on this issue. If gay marriage is approved why shouldn't they be allowed to marry 1 or a dozen partners. You don't want to discriminate against gays so how can you discriminate against them?

Not every argument that applies to Same Sex Marriage applies to Multi-Person Marriage

The consitutional argument of Gender discrimination does not apply to Multi-Person Marriage as it does to Same Sex Marriage

While I agree, SOME arguments in favor of same-sex/gay marriage would be hypocritical to not also apply to Multi-person marriage...especially those who ignorantly try to argue that we shouldn't keep people from marrying the person they love. However, many of the ones that are used...and especially many of the constitutionally based ones...don't really apply to both cases.
 
Laws have to be challenged before the SCOTUS is allowed to declare them constitutional or unconstitutional. If no one ever challenges the law, then the SCOTUS can't touch it, even if it is unconstitutional.

However, there are a lot of cases on their way up to the SCOTUS involving the constitutionality of DOMA. One of them is bound to hit the mark and take down DOMA. Hell, and even the SCOTUS gets things wrong. There have been several landmark cases in the past which overturned previous SCOTUS rulings.

Plus, remember when DOMA was passed, many states still had laws legally in place against sodomy and being gay.

DOMA was passed by 86 senators and signed by Clinton and so far it has held up pretty well as no gays that got married in a state where activist judges and not the people of the state approved gay marriage none can go to another state and have it recognized.
 
I think the correct solution to this issue is to get the state out of the marriage game. Return the practice to religions, where issues of morality belong.
 
DOMA was passed by 86 senators and signed by Clinton and so far it has held up pretty well as no gays that got married in a state where activist judges and not the people of the state approved gay marriage none can go to another state and have it recognized.

14 of the original signers have since filed an amicus brief with the courts arguing that the law is unconstitutional and Clinton has recanted it. Not exactly a strong case for ya NP.
 
Not every argument that applies to Same Sex Marriage applies to Multi-Person Marriage

The consitutional argument of Gender discrimination does not apply to Multi-Person Marriage as it does to Same Sex Marriage

While I agree, SOME arguments in favor of same-sex/gay marriage would be hypocritical to not also apply to Multi-person marriage...especially those who ignorantly try to argue that we shouldn't keep people from marrying the person they love. However, many of the ones that are used...and especially many of the constitutionally based ones...don't really apply to both cases.

Like I said before there is nothing in the Constitution about gay marriage and the originators would roll over in their graves if they knew the amendment was being used for this.
 
14 of the original signers have since filed an amicus brief with the courts arguing that the law is unconstitutional and Clinton has recanted it. Not exactly a strong case for ya NP.

Come on, you have a link for those statements, especially where Bill Clinton says he is for Gay Marriage.........I would love to see that......thanks
 
Like I said before there is nothing in the Constitution about gay marriage and the originators would roll over in their graves if they knew the amendment was being used for this.

If you want to talk about intent, then the 14th amendment was intentionally left broad so that it could be applied to future cases where people would try to discriminate against a minority. Protecting the rights of the minority from the majority has been an ideal since the founding fathers.
 
I think the correct solution to this issue is to get the state out of the marriage game. Return the practice to religions, where issues of morality belong.

There is good reason to keep the Gov in the marriage business especially where children are involved.
 
There is good reason to keep the Gov in the marriage business especially where children are involved.

The only reason the government wants a piece of marriage is so they can play tax games.
 
There is good reason to keep the Gov in the marriage business especially where children are involved.

What's the difference between two gays being married raising children and two gays that aren't married raising children? So why does the government need to be involved with marriage again?
 
There is good reason to keep the Gov in the marriage business especially where children are involved.

Alright. Enough.

What's your point in bringing in children?
 
This isn't gender. It isn't even sexual preference or orientation. It is marriage and the constitutionality of state laws regulating it. With regard to same sex couples, SCOTUS has a precedent of summary dismissal of the question in Baker v. Nelson. You can't get more relaxed scrutiny than that.

From Smith's opinion:

And Loving v. VA was marriage and the constitutionality of states regulating it. It involved the states trying to deny the ability of people to enter into a certain legal contract based on their race.

In the case of SSM and Prop 8, it involves marriage and the constitutionality of states regulating it. It involves the states trying to deny the ability of people to enter into a certain legal contract based on their sex.
 
Like I said before there is nothing in the Constitution about gay marriage and the originators would roll over in their graves if they knew the amendment was being used for this.

Actually, if you're going to make the marriage argument...there's nothing about marriage, STRICTLY, in the constitution in the first place so the government shouldn't even be involved in it.

Now, if you support the government getting involved in having any kind of federally sponsored government version of "marriage" then you're basically suggesting there's some standing under the constitution for the government to do such a thing.

And, based on the 14th amendment, said government sponsored law must provide equal protection.

Also, if you're going to be caring about originators of amendments rolling over in their graves, I don't seem to remember you having a huge issue when the Bush administration passed the Patriot Act despite the notions found within it would cause a similar reaction in many of the founders who penned the 4th amendment.
 
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There is good reason to keep the Gov in the marriage business especially where children are involved.

Then why are there states that specifically restrict certain couples from marrying to only being allowed if they cannot have children together?

And besides that, there are many children involved in the lives of many same sex couples throughout the US. They and their parents deserve the same legal protections as any other family has, including the benefits of legal marriage.
 
There is good reason to keep the Gov in the marriage business especially where children are involved.

Please, show the constituional basis for the federal government being involved in marriage.
 
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