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Drug testing for welfare recipients suffers setback

Please, dude. Due process and "innocent until proven guilty"...those have NOTHING to do with drug testing anybody. Even the 4th amendment is a stretch. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a governing body deciding that those who receive benefits (typically mothers of young children) should be and remain drug free as a stipulation of receiving and staying on government assistance....if done properly, randomly, and without advanced warning. If somebody had thought to piss test my idiot mother before we qualified for food stamps and welfare perhaps I would have ended up in an environment where that money actually went towards clothing, feeding, and providing medical care to me, the minor child. Instead, everything we received was used for drugs or traded for drugs for my mother...and I, the minor child, suffered for it.

I'm not the only kid that happened to. My mother met her dealer and many of her drug-using buddies at the government office where she applied for and picked up her benefits...and all of 'em had children living much the same way I did. Sure, the majority of welfare parents aren't drug users. But if the justification for providing benefits is a societal obligation to the children of the poverty-stricken we're missing a significant chunk of children by not providing investigative social services to monitor the environment in which the children live. That should include checking for the existence of drug use, abuse, living conditions, etc. It is far too easy in this system for children to continue living in neglect because the system isn't really built to do much beyond cut checks.

Government welfare benefits are not guaranteed to you (maybe for seniors, but that's a different story entirely). You have to qualify for them based on family size, income, and/or ability. Why is it such a huge stretch to demand that you also be law abiding and drug-free to qualify?

A very good point. I say drugs more than any other factor is why the cycle of poverty in our poor neighborhoods is so hard to break. Drug use just sucks up someone's will and passion to do much of anything else.
 
Please, dude. Due process and "innocent until proven guilty"...those have NOTHING to do with drug testing anybody. Even the 4th amendment is a stretch. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a governing body deciding that those who receive benefits (typically mothers of young children) should be and remain drug free as a stipulation of receiving and staying on government assistance....if done properly, randomly, and without advanced warning. If somebody had thought to piss test my idiot mother before we qualified for food stamps and welfare perhaps I would have ended up in an environment where that money actually went towards clothing, feeding, and providing medical care to me, the minor child. Instead, everything we received was used for drugs or traded for drugs for my mother...and I, the minor child, suffered for it.

I'm not the only kid that happened to. My mother met her dealer and many of her drug-using buddies at the government office where she applied for and picked up her benefits...and all of 'em had children living much the same way I did. Sure, the majority of welfare parents aren't drug users. But if the justification for providing benefits is a societal obligation to the children of the poverty-stricken we're missing a significant chunk of children by not providing investigative social services to monitor the environment in which the children live. That should include checking for the existence of drug use, abuse, living conditions, etc. It is far too easy in this system for children to continue living in neglect because the system isn't really built to do much beyond cut checks.

Government welfare benefits are not guaranteed to you (maybe for seniors, but that's a different story entirely). You have to qualify for them based on family size, income, and/or ability. Why is it such a huge stretch to demand that you also be law abiding and drug-free to qualify?

I present to everyone the supposedly non-class warfare of the modern Republican party. Demonize the poor, use anecdotal evidence, attack the needy.
 
I present to everyone the supposedly non-class warfare of the modern Republican party. Demonize the poor, use anecdotal evidence, attack the needy.

You're seeing something that isn't there. First of all, I am not a member of the Republican party. I am not claiming to respresent the Republican party or claiming that they represent me. This is my stance. It is not party-dependent.

Secondly, I very clearly state "the majority of welfare parents aren't drug users". I also never attacked the needy. I advocated for the children of drug users who live in poverty. I then go on to describe a real (and significant) problem for portion of children living in poverty. I also never criticized, demonized, or insulted the poor. I never said that drug use is a problem specific to the poor. I never said that every poor parent is a bad parent. I said the system is broken if it doesn't do more to protect children in poverty.

From childwelfare.gov:

Parental substance abuse is reported to be a contributing factor for between one- and two-thirds of maltreated children in the child welfare system.29 Research supports the association between substance abuse and child maltreatment.30 For example:

A retrospective study of maltreatment experience in Chicago found children whose parents abused alcohol and other drugs were almost three times likelier to be abused and more than four times likelier to be neglected than children of parents who were not substance abusers.31
A Department of Health and Human Services study found all types of maltreatment, and particularly neglect, to be more likely in alcohol-abusing families than in nonalcohol-abusing families.32

So how is stating something that is true "demonizing" or "attacking"?
 
My husband administers military tests often - he knows the tricks and is present in the restroom for those in suspicion.


So your husband is the NCO designated to be the meat gazer where he was stationed at. When I was at Fort Hood the company I everyone in the company was in was piss tested every month due to the high amount of soldiers who pissed hot and the designated meat gazer was in the latrine to watch everyone who took the test. As far as I can tell from the piss tests I had to take to get a job in the civilian world they do not have someone stand there and watch you.
 
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I present to everyone the supposedly non-class warfare of the modern Republican party. Demonize the poor, use anecdotal evidence, attack the needy.

I present to everyone classic ignorance.
 
As far as I can tell from the piss tests I had to take to get a job in the civilian world they do not have someone stand there and watch you.

The jobs I have had since getting out of the military all required drug tests before starting work and random ones during the time (usually I got hit by a random twice a year). You are correct in that they don't watch unless you are picked specifically for a drug test due to suspicion of using drugs.

A lot different than the meat-gazing days in the Army :)
 
If employers weren't responsible for healthcare coverage then I'd see your point.


they shouldn't be.

however, drugs are but one component of an unhealthy lifestyle, and other more significant contributors to overall poor health are not tested for at time of hire.
 
Please, dude. Due process and "innocent until proven guilty"...those have NOTHING to do with drug testing anybody. Even the 4th amendment is a stretch. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a governing body deciding that those who receive benefits (typically mothers of young children) should be and remain drug free as a stipulation of receiving and staying on government assistance....if done properly, randomly, and without advanced warning. If somebody had thought to piss test my idiot mother before we qualified for food stamps and welfare perhaps I would have ended up in an environment where that money actually went towards clothing, feeding, and providing medical care to me, the minor child. Instead, everything we received was used for drugs or traded for drugs for my mother...and I, the minor child, suffered for it.

I'm not the only kid that happened to. My mother met her dealer and many of her drug-using buddies at the government office where she applied for and picked up her benefits...and all of 'em had children living much the same way I did. Sure, the majority of welfare parents aren't drug users. But if the justification for providing benefits is a societal obligation to the children of the poverty-stricken we're missing a significant chunk of children by not providing investigative social services to monitor the environment in which the children live. That should include checking for the existence of drug use, abuse, living conditions, etc. It is far too easy in this system for children to continue living in neglect because the system isn't really built to do much beyond cut checks.

Government welfare benefits are not guaranteed to you (maybe for seniors, but that's a different story entirely). You have to qualify for them based on family size, income, and/or ability. Why is it such a huge stretch to demand that you also be law abiding and drug-free to qualify?

Your assumption is a bit ludicrous. You think that a drug addict is going to get clean just to collect a few hundred bucks worth of foot stamps? Suddenly, if she has to take a drug test, she's going to turn into June Cleaver? The more likely scenario is that she instead resorts to petty theft and/or panhandling and/or prostitution.
 
Anyone with advance notice can pass a piss test. It isn't hard.My best fried passes his piss tests all the time.All it takes is enough time to drive to a friend or relatives house and collect urine from a friend or relative who does not do drugs and keeping that urine warm and concealed. If they made these welfare recipients all go down the welfare office to collect their welfare and food stamps on a regular bases and randomly test them on the spot I guarantee the results would be a lot higher.

In Texas, faking a drug test, using someone else's urine, or using a Whizinator or other device is a felony, and means prison, if caught.
 
Your assumption is a bit ludicrous. You think that a drug addict is going to get clean just to collect a few hundred bucks worth of foot stamps? Suddenly, if she has to take a drug test, she's going to turn into June Cleaver? The more likely scenario is that she instead resorts to petty theft and/or panhandling and/or prostitution.

June Cleaver was a crackhead? Say it ain't so. :mrgreen:
 
Let me add something else. If legislators in Texas had to take drug tests, George Bush would have been doing time in jail instead of sitting in the Oval Office. His coke use, while a congressman, is legendary, here in Texas.
 
Anyone with advance notice can pass a piss test. It isn't hard.My best fried passes his piss tests all the time.All it takes is enough time to drive to a friend or relatives house and collect urine from a friend or relative who does not do drugs and keeping that urine warm and concealed. If they made these welfare recipients all go down the welfare office to collect their welfare and food stamps on a regular bases and randomly test them on the spot I guarantee the results would be a lot higher.

Interesting. I wonder how you know this?
 
Please, dude. Due process and "innocent until proven guilty"...those have NOTHING to do with drug testing anybody. Even the 4th amendment is a stretch. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a governing body deciding that those who receive benefits (typically mothers of young children) should be and remain drug free as a stipulation of receiving and staying on government assistance....if done properly, randomly, and without advanced warning. If somebody had thought to piss test my idiot mother before we qualified for food stamps and welfare perhaps I would have ended up in an environment where that money actually went towards clothing, feeding, and providing medical care to me, the minor child. Instead, everything we received was used for drugs or traded for drugs for my mother...and I, the minor child, suffered for it.

I'm not the only kid that happened to. My mother met her dealer and many of her drug-using buddies at the government office where she applied for and picked up her benefits...and all of 'em had children living much the same way I did. Sure, the majority of welfare parents aren't drug users. But if the justification for providing benefits is a societal obligation to the children of the poverty-stricken we're missing a significant chunk of children by not providing investigative social services to monitor the environment in which the children live. That should include checking for the existence of drug use, abuse, living conditions, etc. It is far too easy in this system for children to continue living in neglect because the system isn't really built to do much beyond cut checks.

Government welfare benefits are not guaranteed to you (maybe for seniors, but that's a different story entirely). You have to qualify for them based on family size, income, and/or ability. Why is it such a huge stretch to demand that you also be law abiding and drug-free to qualify?
With all due respect, you're rationalizing. You're taking an individual anecdote and trying to cast a blanket over all of society... or all of those in society you distrust and/or dislike. They have everything to do with it. Everything to do with who we are as a society and as a nation and what we claim to believe in. We either believe in these concepts of justice or we don't. Period.

You are actually arguing two things here, without realizing them, I think. One, you are arguing that the government should step in and approve the living conditions of ALL citizens, welfare or not, as there are plenty of people outside the system that do the same thing. "For the children's sake", as former President Clinton might say. The ends justifies the means, but only for certain people... those other people... not me.

Two, what you... and others who are pro-testing... are saying is that our sense of justice, and what we claim to believe regarding our sense of justice when it applies to us, is for sale. We demand our rights as individuals against unwarranted violations due process be respected, yet we are unwilling to allow the same respect to others who are also not individually and specifically suspected of any crime. Why? Because money is involved? Sorry, that's just repugnant. That's hypocrisy of the lowest order.
 
If employers weren't responsible for healthcare coverage then I'd see your point.

they shouldn't be.

however, drugs are but one component of an unhealthy lifestyle, and other more significant contributors to overall poor health are not tested for at time of hire.

If employers can regulate drug use because it affects the health of the employee and the employer is responsible for providing insurance, then they should be able to control almost everything about a person's life, then. What food they eat, how much they work out, how they drive, their sexual habits, etc. There's really not very many things we do that do not affect our health in some way.

I will agree, employers shouldn't be involved in insurance. We should have universal public healthcare. But giving some people (the ones with money) the power to control so much of others' (those without money) lives is just plain wrong. It's contrary to America's ideals of freedom.
 
Ron Paul has the answer: End the war on drugs.

The war on drugs isn't working. It is causing more problems than it solves. It is a bad policy that is filling our prisons with addicts and letting real criminals skip out early because there isn't room for them. It is the cause of a shooting war on our southern border.

Time to end it. past time, in fact.
 
To be honest I wouldn't have a problem if they wanted to randomly test Welfare recipients for drugs (or anyone benefiting from a social program). I also think that they should have access to all the financial transactions that person makes and offer them "financial rehab" to help them get off welfare (and dump them from it if they aren't making progress/actively looking for employment).
 
In Texas, faking a drug test, using someone else's urine, or using a Whizinator or other device is a felony, and means prison, if caught.

Doesn't the same apply if caught with illegal drugs?
 
Your assumption is a bit ludicrous. You think that a drug addict is going to get clean just to collect a few hundred bucks worth of foot stamps? Suddenly, if she has to take a drug test, she's going to turn into June Cleaver? The more likely scenario is that she instead resorts to petty theft and/or panhandling and/or prostitution.

It depends. What incentive do they have now to get clean? Whose to say people who are collecting a welfare check every week aren't panhandling or engaged in prostitution. There is no perfect solution. Your "turn a blind eye and feel good about yourself for giving them a few bucks" solution is problematic.
 
So here is the question we all want to know - What do the Indiana lawmakers have to hide? If drug testing is good enough for mothers and children who are receiving food stamps, then it is damn well good enough for lawmakers too.

Article is here.

Discussion?

i agree, but the bigger point is how can libertarians or even republicans endorse more infiltration to a person's private life?
 
i agree, but the bigger point is how can libertarians or even republicans endorse more infiltration to a person's private life?

It's because the sector of individuals go to the government and say 'I can't help myself - can you help me?'

It has nothing to do with politics - but people willingly subjecting their self to the support of the government and thus the regulations of the government.
 
One facet not yet mentioned is cost.

Last I checked, even for large corporations that get the cost down due to bulk, it's still about 80 bucks per person for a drug test. **** ain't free.
 
One facet not yet mentioned is cost.

Last I checked, even for large corporations that get the cost down due to bulk, it's still about 80 bucks per person for a drug test. **** ain't free.
I wonder if they get a dollar-for-dollar benefit from that? Probably impossible to calculate precisely, though.
 
In Texas, faking a drug test, using someone else's urine, or using a Whizinator or other device is a felony, and means prison, if caught.

Everything is a felony these days it seems.
 
I am against the urine drug testing of all free Americans. Either that or issue us orange jump-suits, shuffle shoes, and shackles to wear to the test clinic.
 
I am against the urine drug testing of all free Americans. Either that or issue us orange jump-suits, shuffle shoes, and shackles to wear to the test clinic.

I think in the end I come down more on this side. I don't really like the constant drug testing of America, even by private industry. IMO, if we just made everything performance based you wouldn't have to worry about it.
 
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