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State of the Union Address

ARealConservative said:
a business that reinvests just so they don't show a profit is screwy. you only reinvest to increase/continue profits, not to avoid them.
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Companies pay out dividends all the time under our current method of taxation. This idea that companies don't because of double taxation is incorrect. They shouldn't be the preferred method of use so there is a "penalty" for sending out dividends.
 
ARealConservative said:
I didn’t change anything. You foolishly pointed out that sometimes business lost money as if that is a defense for anything. I pointed out that yes, sometimes they do lose money. But they don’t invest in the company with the motivation being to lose money. No position change occurred. You are wrong again.
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Your post was dishonest. You claimed that everything a business does was meant to increase or maintain its' profits. I proved that you are wrong. Then you changed your claim to "all businesses want to make a profit". I proved that was also wrong.

You just can't admit it



But even in this case, they take actions hoping the net gain is a profit. They have one holding lose money so that it effects the tax brackets and overall profitability of the other entity.
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No, in the case I described, the subsidiary is not taking any action to increase its' profits. They are *deliberately* incurring losses.
 
OpportunityCost said:
So you didnt have a point. Understood. Just because only some people buy stocks for dividends doesnt mean its ok to tax the crud out of them.

Lets go over profit in a small business for a moment...where do you suppose the money that the business owner withdraws comes from, if not profit? A money tree?
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It's obvious that you understood nothing
 
Blue_State said:
Say I am Mike, and I own Mike's Lemonade Stand.

Mike's Lemonade Stand LLC did well this year, and brought in 1 Million Dollars. I must be doing well, the company brought in a MILLION!!! I am going to pay myself monthly payments of $8333.33, because I think I am worth it. After all, I did start a business that contributes to society. That is going to give me a yearly income of 100,000 and the government is going to tax that too. Uncle Sam is going to get 35,000 before the day is done. That is ok though...my company still brought in 900,000. Then there are my employees and general cost of business. Let's assume I am running a 30% margin. That allows for expansion and overall good feelings. So out of the 1 Million my company brought in, about 300,000 of that was profit. Not bad. Uncle Sam will surely want a piece. Now that profit is at 195,000 as Uncle Sam took 35% or $105,000. Ok. We still have 195,000 to build the business with, and that isn't anything to sneeze at. But then again, I did work 80 hour weeks for 3 years, didn't eat for 2 of those, and slept at my desk since I couldn't afford an appartment when I started. I should buy myself a small cottage on the mountain, something to enjoy after all of my efforts, because if I failed, I wouldn't have a damn thing and no one would take care of me. So I take out 100,000 in profits to pay the investors...me. Uncle Sam wants 15,000 from that too. So in the course of the year, my income was taxed, my companies income was taxed, and then when I paid myself for my risk, that got taxed to the tune of $155,000. Not to mention, before I gave myself a risk reward, the pile of money was taxed by the government.

Double Taxation.
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Nope. Your income was taxed, and so was Mikes' Lemonade Stand.

Single taxation
 
The rationale for the double tax on dividends isn't hard to grasp. Corporations can deduct payroll expenses because payroll expenses take away from net profit. Dividends, OTOH, do not take away from net profit. Dividends ARE net profits that are simply being distributed to shareholders. That's one of the down sides to the corporate form. Of course the benefit is that shareholders can't be held liable for corporate losses or other liabilities.
 
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sangha said:
Your post was dishonest. You claimed that everything a business does was meant to increase or maintain its' profits. I proved that you are wrong. Then you changed your claim to "all businesses want to make a profit". I proved that was also wrong.
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I fail to see any actual distinction here.

Meant to, and want to has the same meaning in this context.

No, in the case I described, the subsidiary is not taking any action to increase its' profits. They are *deliberately* incurring losses.
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In the made up hypothetical you described, you said it was to increase the profits of a different company. So the actions were still done to increase profit somewhere, so you can’t even make up a scenario out of thin air that defends your position.
 
Tettsuo said:
I don't think you understand how corporations work in legal terms. Shareholders are completely separate from the corporation.

That's the cost of having the benefits and personal legal protection corporations provide.
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I don't think you have any clue either about what I know about corporations or the point I am making

the point I am making is that it is WRONG for the government to take so much money with two cuts at the same piece of pie
 
sangha said:
Most people do not buy stock in order to receive dividends.
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Oh do pretend to start speaking for the investor class

geez
 
sangha said:
Tell that to Warren Buffet

BTW, I support higher tax rates on the rich, and I happen to be rich. Your claim is nothing but self-serving fiction
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Well after I get done laughing at that claim tell us why?
 
sangha said:
More dishonest claptrap from the right

Income and capital gains are not the same things

And payroll taxes were the subject of a recent battle in congress. Once again, you've been proven to be posting fiction
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more babbling idiocy.
 
sangha said:
So you pay a tax atty to pay your taxes sooner than you need to, you don't know about Form 2210, and you think other people are unlearned about taxation? :lamo:
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more babbling idiocy. Your posts really look stupid when you start pretending you can fathom what I know
 
sangha said:
And another dishonest post from TD

Dividends are only taxed when received. That's just one time, not two
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more evasive nonsense. the same pool of money is twice taxed
 
ARealConservative said:
I fail to see any actual distinction here.
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Your failure to understand the difference does not mean that there is no difference

Meant to, and want to has the same meaning in this context.
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And again, some corps neither mean to, nor want to, make a profit





In the made up hypothetical you described, you said it was to increase the profits of a different company. So the actions were still done to increase profit somewhere, so you can’t even make up a scenario out of thin air that defends your position.
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It wasn't just a hypothetical. I cited a well-known example (again, Enron)

And now you're changing your claim for a 2nd time. Now, it's not "all businesses want to increase their own profit"; it's "businesses want to increase someones profits"
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't think you have any clue either about what I know about corporations or the point I am making

the point I am making is that it is WRONG for the government to take so much money with two cuts at the same piece of pie
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We all have plenty of clues about your position, and it has nothing to do with right and wrong (or honesty)
 
sangha said:
Your failure to understand the difference does not mean that there is no difference
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you failed to properly explain the difference.

It wasn't just a hypothetical. I cited a well-known example (again, Enron)
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Without knowing the specifics of your so called facts, I’ll just assume a company known to engage in fraud might of had other avenues of profitability motivating them.
 
ARealConservative said:
you failed to properly explain the difference.



Without knowing the specifics of your so called facts, I’ll just assume a company known to engage in fraud might of had other avenues of profitability motivating them.
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I did a fine job of explaining the difference; so fine that you've been forced to change you claim two times now
 
sangha said:
We all have plenty of clues about your position, and it has nothing to do with right and wrong (or honesty)
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we ought to take a poll on honesty sangha but the fact remains you just want to see other people pay more taxes to annoy them
 
sangha said:
TS has been been so pwned that he has been reduced to childish spew
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Your posts are hardly indicative of an adult level of discourse and your main goal is to be a contrarian
 
sangha said:
I did a fine job of explaining the difference; so fine that you've been forced to change you claim two times now
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maybe repeating the lie often enough will endear you with your cronies.
 
ARealConservative said:
maybe repeating the lie often enough will endear you with your cronies.
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Their only consistency is wanting OTHER people to pay MORE taxes

some of them advocate that because they are fans of big government and believe the government is more capable of spending the money than those who earn it

others are just economic vandals who are upset that others do better than they do and they want the government to avenge their feelings of envy
 
TurtleDude said:
Their only consistency is wanting OTHER people to pay MORE taxes
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Another dishonest post from TD. I have said that I'm willing to have my tax rates increased

The only consistency is TD's position is that he doesn't want HIS taxes raised.

He's willing to have taxes increased on people who make less them him. He's willing to have taxes increased on people who make more than him.
 
ARealConservative said:
Another liberal lacking reading comprehension.

Nobody in this thread is challenging the separate entity thing.

One ignorant poster claims double taxation didn’t exist.
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Why am I not surprised you'd be insulting?

Double taxation does not exist in America. Sorry, it doesn't. The concept is based on a foolish idea that a corporation and it's owners are one. They are not. The other foolish belief is money somehow has a memory. It doesn't. All bets are off when it changes hands. If someone gives you a million dollars, a mill they paid taxes on, the money isn't doubled taxed and neither are you. That entire frame of thinking is ridiculous. Money isn't an entity with rights and legal status beyond the entities controlling it. Money isn't taxed outside of the entity.

I see how Conservative fall into the worship of money...
 
sangha said:
Nope. Your income was taxed, and so was Mikes' Lemonade Stand.

Single taxation
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The money didn't move. It didn't perform a job, it was just redistributed. If two people are standing on the corner and one hands the other 20,000 dollars, we are ok with taxing that? I know we do tax that, but the money hasn't done anything but move between names. It didn't buy anything or generate anything. It was just moved.

What if it was 20 dollars?
 
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