• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Keystone oil sands pipeline rejected

j-mac said:
Just the fact....That's what they call me....

This is from about a year ago, but little has changed for the better since.




j-mac
Click to expand...
None of that addresses why we are barely tapping into what is possibly the biggest oil reserve in the world.

Next talking point ... ?
 
Gill said:
Oil pipelines are regularly inspected and maintained. A forest fire ???? Are you kidding?? You don know the pipe will be buried 4 feet underground don't you? It's buried that deep so freeze/thaw won't affect.
Click to expand...

No, forest fires are a real concern. They can burn insanely hot, so the temp does reach well past 4 feet. There are even issues with bunkers or storage tanks or whatever that are buried 15 feet down and more in forest fires. One of the bigger pipeline spills, I think in Russia, was caused that way. The heat caused the pipe to expand and a joint popped loose.

Gill said:
Not any more thanks to the liberals on the Supreme Court. They ruled in Kelo v. City of New London that the city could take property away for a private landowner and give it to another private landowner.
Click to expand...

So do you support Kelo or oppose it? It seems like you oppose that, but support this... What gives?
 
Last edited:
Dpetty said:
The same everywhere? Not even close! have you ever bought gas in Australia? Cause i have, and converting their dollar to ours, it was about twice as much per gallon. ( sold in australia by the liter ). Oil prices are not balanced worldwide just because the whole world needs oil.
Click to expand...

You're confusing gas and oil. Oil costs the same everywhere. Gas varies way more. Mostly because of taxes.
 
iliveonramen said:
They do not like the route proposed. They want the route changed. Which is why Obama cancelled the proposal. The governor is repeating Republican talking points...but you notice he still wants the route changed! He wants more time to propose a new route.
Click to expand...

The route was changed in November.
 
BWG said:
....Oh?....
Click to expand...

That was BEFORE TransCanada agreed to change the route of the pipeline. Now only extremist environmental groups are against it, but they would be against any effort to reduce America's dependency of ME oil.
 
teamosil said:
No, forest fires are a real concern. They can burn insanely hot, so the temp does reach well past 4 feet. There are even issues with bunkers or storage tanks or whatever that are buried 15 feet down and more in forest fires. One of the bigger pipeline spills, I think in Russia, was caused that way. The heat caused the pipe to expand and a joint popped loose.
Click to expand...

Please tell me you are being sarcastic. Show me even one link that a properly buried pipeline was damaged by a forest fire.

So do you support Kelo or oppose it? It seems like you oppose that, but support this... What gives?
Click to expand...

Entirely different situation, so can't compare apples and oranges. Kelo was so a developer could tear down houses to build a shopping center, hardly in the interest of the people. An oil pipeline benefits everyone.
 
teamosil said:
You're confusing gas and oil. Oil costs the same everywhere. Gas varies way more. Mostly because of taxes.
Click to expand...

Your confusing gas with gasoline. Gas is a substance possessing perfect molecular mobility and the property of indefinite expansion, as opposed to a solid or liquid. Gasoline is a volatile, flammable liquid mixture of hydrocarbons, obtained from petroleum, and used as fuel for internal-combustion engines, as a solvent, etc.

Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com

Just being sarcastic.

But its not ONLY taxes that explain the difference in prices.
 
Gill said:
Please tell me you are being sarcastic. Show me even one link that a properly buried pipeline was damaged by a forest fire.
Click to expand...

Hmm I'll see if I can find it. I saw a bit about it in a documentary on the world's biggest forest fires... I'll see if I can find it. But just so you know I'm not bsing you, here are some links about how they shut down pipelines when there is a forest fire to avoid exactly that:

UPDATE 2-Alberta oil pipeline seen down until end of June | Reuters
Canadian Natural provides update on Alberta forest fires (Scandinavian Oil-Gas Magazine)

Gill said:
Entirely different situation, so can't compare apples and oranges. Kelo was so a developer could tear down houses to build a shopping center, hardly in the interest of the people. An oil pipeline benefits everyone.
Click to expand...

Er what? I'd go totally the other way on that... In Kelo the idea was that it was an economically struggling neighborhood that needed jobs badly. The developer promised something like 500 permanent jobs just in that one small community, so the city found that it was in the public interest. In this case it's just oil company profits and 20,000 across the entire nation and it's only temporary jobs. Oil company profits certainly aren't public interest...

Regardless, I oppose using eminent domain in both cases.
 
Dpetty said:
But its not ONLY taxes that explain the difference in prices.
Click to expand...

No, it's other things too. Supply and demand, refining capacity, etc. But the price of oil is pretty much always the same world wide. You can look up the prices of oil on the different commodity exchanges around the world and they're almost always exactly the same. When one gets a penny higher than the others, the market jumps on it.
 
teamosil said:
Hmm I'll see if I can find it. I saw a bit about it in a documentary on the world's biggest forest fires... I'll see if I can find it. But just so you know I'm not bsing you, here are some links about how they shut down pipelines when there is a forest fire to avoid exactly that:

UPDATE 2-Alberta oil pipeline seen down until end of June | Reuters
Click to expand...

Didn't see anything about the fire being a danger to the underground pipeline. The reason it was shut down was that the fire cut off the electricity being used by the oil line pumps:

The southern part of the pipeline was also shut for about 10 days in May as forest fires that swept across northern Alberta cut power to pump stations.
Click to expand...

Try again.
 
teamosil said:
No, it's other things too. Supply and demand, refining capacity, etc. But the price of oil is pretty much always the same world wide. You can look up the prices of oil on the different commodity exchanges around the world and they're almost always exactly the same. When one gets a penny higher than the others, the market jumps on it.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head though. Supply and demand. If we supply our own oil, we can set our own prices to an extent by offering incentives to oil producers to keep their oil within the US instead of exporting to other countries. By supplying our own, we lessen demand on outside nations which would then precipitate a drop in prices.
 
Gill said:
Didn't see anything about the fire being a danger to the underground pipeline. The reason it was shut down was that the fire cut off the electricity being used by the oil line pumps:

Try again.
Click to expand...

Well dude, it really doesn't matter to me whether you believe me about forest fires being a danger for pipelines. It's true, but not really important either way, so it's not worth googling up for you more than I already have. If you're interested, definitely take a shot at googling it yourself.
 
Dpetty said:
You hit the nail on the head though. Supply and demand. If we supply our own oil, we can set our own prices to an extent by offering incentives to oil producers to keep their oil within the US instead of exporting to other countries. By supplying our own, we lessen demand on outside nations which would then precipitate a drop in prices.
Click to expand...

No, that isn't how it works. If we tried to pressure some producers into selling here, the prices would just go up elsewhere, so then the other producers that currently sell here would go sell there and it would all even out. You can't manipulate prices in one part of a global market. You would need to either control the whole market or segregate us from the larger market.

But, the supply and demand was about gas, not oil. Gas demand is pretty volatile, but supply is relatively fixed because we have a fixed number of refineries.
 
teamosil said:
Well dude, it really doesn't matter to me whether you believe me about forest fires being a danger for pipelines. It's true, but not really important either way, so it's not worth googling up for you more than I already have. If you're interested, definitely take a shot at googling it yourself.
Click to expand...

You'll pardon me if I don't take your word for it, since it defies logic that a pipe buried 4 feet underground could be damaged by a fast moving forest fire above it. Why do you think grass grows back so quickly after a fire.......it's because the roots are not damaged by the fire.
 
Gill said:
You'll pardon me if I don't take your word for it, since it defies logic that a pipe buried 4 feet underground could be damaged by a fast moving forest fire above it. Why do you think grass grows back so quickly after a fire.......it's because the roots are not damaged by the fire.
Click to expand...

Sometimes that's true. There are forest fires that don't even burn the grass at all. But there are also forest fires that turn the soil into glass they are so hot.

I'm telling you man, I saw it in a documentary about the pipeline. But, whatever, it doesn't matter either way. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine by me.
 
Sheik Yerbuti said:
Supply is being controlled by the oil conglomerates. We have an abundance now but rather than sell it in the U.S. markets where your point of supply and demand would lower the costs, they are exporting oil and gas surpluses to keep prices artificially high. Increasing the supply is, for the most part, only going to increase exports. Sure, the price at the pump may decline a bit, but for the most part, all the Keystone pipeline will do is generate even more profit for the oil companies.
Click to expand...

I don't assign the smoking gun the same way you do. Furthermore, I would argue as I have that we do not have an abundance. We ship in way a lot more unprocessed crude than we ship out gasoline.

And the keystone pipeline will not change our oil supply...however it will give us another spigot.
 
Last edited:
Blue_State said:
I don't assign the smoking gun the same way you do. Furthermore, I would argue as I have that we do not have an abundance. We ship in way a lot more unprocessed crude than we ship out gasoline.

And the keystone pipeline will not change our oil supply...however it will give us another spigot.
Click to expand...

Not sure how an additional 900,000 barrels of oil a day won't change our oil supply.
 
teamosil said:
Sometimes that's true. There are forest fires that don't even burn the grass at all. But there are also forest fires that turn the soil into glass they are so hot.

I'm telling you man, I saw it in a documentary about the pipeline. But, whatever, it doesn't matter either way. If you don't want to believe it, that's fine by me.
Click to expand...

Sand turns to glass around 4,200 F.

Are we to believe that burning wood gets to 4000F?
 
Samhain said:
Sand turns to glass around 4,200 F.

Are we to believe that burning wood gets to 4000F?
Click to expand...

A forest fire isn't like say wood burning in a fireplace. It's sometimes miles wide. There are huge drafts that concentrate heat at various points and whatnot. They can create what is called a "firestorm".

A firestorm may be the most intense destructive force that nature can unleash. Nothing in man's fire fighting arsenal can stop them. Part forest fire, part cyclone and part napalm bomb, they can be miles wide and miles high. They generate enough heat to turn sand into glass and enough wind to pick up railroad cars.

Peshtigo burns the same night as the Great Chicago Fire - only worse
Click to expand...

There is a spot up where I used to go canoeing when I was a kid where the ground was all glass-like because of a huge forest fire firestorm.
 
teamosil said:
A forest fire isn't like say wood burning in a fireplace. It's sometimes miles wide. There are huge drafts that concentrate heat at various points and whatnot. They can create what is called a "firestorm".



There is a spot up where I used to go canoeing when I was a kid where the ground was all glass-like because of a huge forest fire firestorm.
Click to expand...

Actually, forest fires typically burn at temperatures around 1470 degrees F. Far to low to damage an object buried 4 ft down.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom