Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

I guess in your mind that is the best you can come up with. I merely noted that far lefties who think Buffett speaks for people like me is rather idiotic. I am not envious of Buffett and I don't whine that I pay a higher effective federal income tax rate than he does. He pays tons of taxes and creates a lot of value for society. But his calls for higher taxes are designed to benefit him and is hardly altruistic.

I think everyone should pay the same income tax rate so people like you cannot demand others pay more without you paying any more yourself

with a flat rate if you want me to pay 5% more taxes so will you

I suspect that would calm down the tax hiking fervor of most citizens

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With no skin in the game, just keep raising the pot with no consequences. Its a sucker bet now.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

OpportunityCost said:

Its also the only way to get them to put their ideas on the line instead of just screaming MORE! MORE! MORE!
Give a percentage. Im betting he won't.

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There isn't like some set percentage written on a stone tablet somewhere. The optimal level depends on lots of things. Ideally, government should spend as much money as there are things to spend it on where it generates a higher ROI for society than is typical in private enterprise. So, for example, the average American generates $3 million in GDP in their lifetime. If that would only be $1 million if we had no schools and schools cost $150k/student or something, then that is a hugely good investment. On the other hand, if spending $1,000 on a particular program only generates $500 worth of benefits, that isn't good spending. Well, that line moves constantly. New technologies or sociological changes or opportunities pop up that make one kind of spending no longer worth it while making another kind of spending suddenly well worth it. The optimal taxation rate will vary depending on the optimal amount of spending. It could be that a very high rate is optimal at one time in history and a very low rate is optimal at another time.

Second, what you want to tax and how progressively depends on all kinds of economic factors. Taxing the middle class more hurts consumer spending/corporate revenues. Taxing the rich more depletes investment dollars. Taxing cars reduces driving, taxing carbon boosts green energy, etc. At different times we'll be more in need of consumer spending or investment. We'll have a problem with various things that we want to use taxes to disincentivize them or we'll be in need of various things and we'll want to use taxes to create incentives to do them. If the wealth becomes too concentrated and it's causing too many sociological and economic problems, making taxation more progressive makes more sense, but if wealth becomes too evenly distributed and the incentive to work hard starts eroding, then making taxation less progressive makes sense.

So, just spitting out a set rate is a really hard question. It's a really complicated question and the answer shifts all the time.

But, all that said, in my view, what we need to do first and foremost is to eliminate the tax breaks for capital gains. Start just taxing investment income as ordinary income. That, combined with cuts in military and domestic spending should bring our budget back into balance and will even out consumer spending with investment capital, so hopefully we won't keep having these crazy bubbles.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

OpportunityCost said:

With no skin in the game, just keep raising the pot with no consequences. Its a sucker bet now.

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that is how it was intended to work

rob peter to pay Paul and if there are a hundred pauls for every Peter, those who advocate paying paul with peter's money are going to win elections constantly

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

OpportunityCost said:

Drop the income percentage at the lower end and increase it at the higher end with brackets going to the sky, 50k/100k/250k/1mil/5mil. Buffet will get what he wants that way.

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No, that would have no impact on the Buffets of the world. He pays only the 15% capital gains tax, not income tax.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

There isn't like some set percentage written on a stone tablet somewhere. The optimal level depends on lots of things. Ideally, government should spend as much money as there are things to spend it on where it generates a higher ROI for society than is typical in private enterprise. So, for example, the average American generates $3 million in GDP in their lifetime. If that would only be $1 million if we had no schools and schools cost $150k/student or something, then that is a hugely good investment. On the other hand, if spending $1,000 on a particular program only generates $500 worth of benefits, that isn't good spending. Well, that line moves constantly. New technologies or sociological changes or opportunities pop up that make one kind of spending no longer worth it while making another kind of spending suddenly well worth it. The optimal taxation rate will vary depending on the optimal amount of spending. It could be that a very high rate is optimal at one time in history and a very low rate is optimal at another time.

Second, what you want to tax and how progressively depends on all kinds of economic factors. Taxing the middle class more hurts consumer spending/corporate revenues. Taxing the rich more depletes investment dollars. Taxing cars reduces driving, taxing carbon boosts green energy, etc. At different times we'll be more in need of consumer spending or investment. We'll have a problem with various things that we want to use taxes to disincentivize them or we'll be in need of various things and we'll want to use taxes to create incentives to do them. If the wealth becomes too concentrated and it's causing too many sociological and economic problems, making taxation more progressive makes more sense, but if wealth becomes too evenly distributed and the incentive to work hard starts eroding, then making taxation less progressive makes sense.

So, just spitting out a set rate is a really hard question. It's a really complicated question and the answer shifts all the time.

But, all that said, in my view, what we need to do first and foremost is to eliminate the tax breaks for capital gains. Start just taxing investment income as ordinary income. That, combined with cuts in military and domestic spending should bring our budget back into balance and will even out consumer spending with investment capital, so hopefully we won't keep having these crazy bubbles.

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its funny how the leftwing mind works

they think the most important thing is jacking up taxes on those who already pay a ton of taxes which of course does nothing to stop the demand by most of america for more government spending. I think making everyone pay some income taxes (and thus cooling the demands of the many for more government) is far more important

of course those who hate investors tend not to understand what happens when a parasitic government takes more and more investments

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

No, that would have no impact on the Buffets of the world. He pays only the 15% capital gains tax, not income tax.

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so you claim that is not something the internal revenue service collects. When I pay my taxes every quarter =some which are earned income, some which are dividends and some which are LTCG I write just one check

and you are right-Buffett won't have any change in his lifestyle if your parasitic scheme comes to pass. But most of the people you call rich will be impacted.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

AdamT said:

You first.

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Lets say, I find the cure for cancer tomorrow...after spending some time working on it and I want to charge 275k a shot. I get rich and create jobs to distribute and produce my cure. Should I get punished by having to pay higher taxes, legislative rules on how, when, where, to whom and for how much I make/distro the cure?

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

its funny how the leftwing mind works

they think the most important thing is jacking up taxes on those who already pay a ton of taxes which of course does nothing to stop the demand by most of america for more government spending. I think making everyone pay some income taxes (and thus cooling the demands of the many for more government) is far more important

of course those who hate investors tend not to understand what happens when a parasitic government takes more and more investments

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If you never have any actual arguments to present about my posts, why do you keep replying to them? Just so we don't forget you're here? We know you're here, we know you're a right winger, we know you don't ever have any substantive arguments about anything. You don't need to keep announcing it every 10 seconds.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

ric27 said:

Lets say, I find the cure for cancer tomorrow...after spending some time working on it and I want to charge 275k a shot. I get rich and create jobs to distribute and produce my cure. Should I get punished by having to pay higher taxes, legislative rules on how, when, where, to whom and for how much I make/distro the cure?

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good question but you definitely ought to charge those who want to raise your taxes 5 million a shot if they contract cancer.

I truly hope that the attitudes of those who want to punish the rich with more taxes cause the rich to actually unite and retaliate against the tax hikers.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

If you never have any actual arguments to present about my posts, why do you keep replying to them? Just so we don't forget you're here? We know you're here, we know you're a right winger, we know you don't ever have any substantive arguments about anything. You don't need to keep announcing it every 10 seconds.

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your arguments are nothing more than a desire for the government to take more wealth from people who already pay far more for government services than others. you don't have any substantive arguments because FROM EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY is a joke and you don't even demand those who have the ability to pay SOME income tax to do so.

we get the fact that you think the government needs more money. I suggest people who think that way pony up the money and give it to the government

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

ric27 said:

Lets say, I find the cure for cancer tomorrow...after spending some time working on it and I want to charge 275k a shot. I get rich and create jobs to distribute and produce my cure. Should I get punished by having to pay higher taxes, legislative rules on how, when, where, to whom and for how much I make/distro the cure?

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You're going to charge $275k per shot for a life saving medication?!?! 56 million people a year die of cancer, so are you aiming for $15 trillion a year in profits and you're going to let 56 million people die if you don't get it... You expect 1/4 of all the money in the world in exchange for a formula you have written down somewhere. That would pretty much put you in comic book supervillain territory...

Yes, in that scenario I would suggest that we set up a 99% tax for profits over $100 billion a year and use the proceeds to buy cancer cures from you for people.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

your arguments are nothing more than a desire for the government to take more wealth from people who already pay far more for government services than others. you don't have any substantive arguments because FROM EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY is a joke and you don't even demand those who have the ability to pay SOME income tax to do so.

we get the fact that you think the government needs more money. I suggest people who think that way pony up the money and give it to the government

Click to expand...

If you never have any actual arguments to present about my posts, why do you keep replying to them? Just so we don't forget you're here? We know you're here, we know you're a right winger, we know you don't ever have any substantive arguments about anything. You don't need to keep announcing it every 10 seconds.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

If you never have any actual arguments to present about my posts, why do you keep replying to them? Just so we don't forget you're here? We know you're here, we know you're a right winger, we know you don't ever have any substantive arguments about anything. You don't need to keep announcing it every 10 seconds.

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substantive arguments-tax the rich more because the government needs it more than they do

anything else to add?

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

substantive arguments-tax the rich more because the government needs it more than they do

anything else to add?

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If you never have any actual arguments to present about my posts, why do you keep replying to them? Just so we don't forget you're here? We know you're here, we know you're a right winger, we know you don't ever have any substantive arguments about anything. You don't need to keep announcing it every 10 seconds.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

good question but you definitely ought to charge those who want to raise your taxes 5 million a shot if they contract cancer.

I truly hope that the attitudes of those who want to punish the rich with more taxes cause the rich to actually unite and retaliate against the tax hikers.

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I want as little as possible from government. I do not want some malignant little bureaucrat who can't even run their own ****ing life telling me how I should live mine

There should be some incentive to succeed. To earn more and do better and if, I earn a LOT more, I should get to enjoy my money and that is certainly a reward. But the tax structure shouldn't become punitive and apply a brake to success by discouraging achievement.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

If you never have any actual arguments to present about my posts, why do you keep replying to them? Just so we don't forget you're here? We know you're here, we know you're a right winger, we know you don't ever have any substantive arguments about anything. You don't need to keep announcing it every 10 seconds.

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your only argument is based on a combination of envy of the rich with an inordinate amount of love for a bigger and bigger government. You claim that capital gains ought to be taxed at 35-40-45% or whatever you think is the proper amount of wealth confiscation top tax payers should face and you don't have a single rational argument for it nor any sort of understanding of the repercussions such idiocy would cause on investment in this country

you pretend you want fairness when in reality you advocate extreme unfairness directed towards people who are actually paying taxes far above the rate you do

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

ric27 said:

I want as little as possible from government. I do not want some malignant little bureaucrat who can't even run their own ****ing life telling me how I should live mine

There should be some incentive to succeed. To earn more and do better and if, I earn a LOT more, I should get to enjoy my money and that is certainly a reward. But the tax structure shouldn't become punitive and apply a brake to success by discouraging achievement.

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I agree, government is a necessary evil but like Colonoscopies and root canals not something to worship or want more of then what is absolutely necessary

sadly, our leftwing "friends" often see government as a tool to be used to "get even" for their own failings with those who are not so limited

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

your only argument is based on a combination of envy of the rich with an inordinate amount of love for a bigger and bigger government. You claim that capital gains ought to be taxed at 35-40-45% or whatever you think is the proper amount of wealth confiscation top tax payers should face and you don't have a single rational argument for it nor any sort of understanding of the repercussions such idiocy would cause on investment in this country

you pretend you want fairness when in reality you advocate extreme unfairness directed towards people who are actually paying taxes far above the rate you do

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Hmm, is that what I said or are you just lying again? Lets check. Here is the post you are pretending to be summarizing:

teamosil said:

There isn't like some set percentage written on a stone tablet somewhere. The optimal level depends on lots of things. Ideally, government should spend as much money as there are things to spend it on where it generates a higher ROI for society than is typical in private enterprise. So, for example, the average American generates $3 million in GDP in their lifetime. If that would only be $1 million if we had no schools and schools cost $150k/student or something, then that is a hugely good investment. On the other hand, if spending $1,000 on a particular program only generates $500 worth of benefits, that isn't good spending. Well, that line moves constantly. New technologies or sociological changes or opportunities pop up that make one kind of spending no longer worth it while making another kind of spending suddenly well worth it. The optimal taxation rate will vary depending on the optimal amount of spending. It could be that a very high rate is optimal at one time in history and a very low rate is optimal at another time.

Second, what you want to tax and how progressively depends on all kinds of economic factors. Taxing the middle class more hurts consumer spending/corporate revenues. Taxing the rich more depletes investment dollars. Taxing cars reduces driving, taxing carbon boosts green energy, etc. At different times we'll be more in need of consumer spending or investment. We'll have a problem with various things that we want to use taxes to disincentivize them or we'll be in need of various things and we'll want to use taxes to create incentives to do them. If the wealth becomes too concentrated and it's causing too many sociological and economic problems, making taxation more progressive makes more sense, but if wealth becomes too evenly distributed and the incentive to work hard starts eroding, then making taxation less progressive makes sense.

So, just spitting out a set rate is a really hard question. It's a really complicated question and the answer shifts all the time.

But, all that said, in my view, what we need to do first and foremost is to eliminate the tax breaks for capital gains. Start just taxing investment income as ordinary income. That, combined with cuts in military and domestic spending should bring our budget back into balance and will even out consumer spending with investment capital, so hopefully we won't keep having these crazy bubbles.

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Huh. Guess you got it totally wrong. Again. Like always. Try harder TD.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

Yes, in that scenario I would suggest that we set up a 99% tax for profits over $100 billion a year and use the proceeds to buy cancer cures from you for people.

Click to expand...

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

Hmm, is that what I said or are you just lying again? Lets check. Here is the post you are pretending to be summarizing:



Huh. Guess you got it totally wrong. Again. Like always. Try harder TD.

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I already responded that thinking the place to start is jacking up taxes on capital gains is moronic when there is half the country paying no income taxes and thus clamoring for more and more stuff to be paid for by jacking up income taxes on other people

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

ric27 said:

BS, I would burn the research and tell everyone to piss off. After I cured family and friends of course.

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So, really, you think $15 trillion a year is a pretty reasonable amount to expect? Roughly the entire economy of the US? That sounds about right to you? $100 billion a year, bleh, that isn't even worth releasing it to you... lol.

You know what the guy that cured polio did with the cure? He immediately distributed it to hundreds of companies, universities and governments all over the world for free and released all rights to it. He said that the most important thing was that as many people as possible get vaccinated as soon as possible and that he could never live with the idea that millions of people died or lived lives with severe deformities just so he could get rich. Whoever cures cancer doesn't need to be that magnanimous, but demanding 1/4 of the world's GDP is obviously absurd.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

I already responded that thinking the place to start is jacking up taxes on capital gains is moronic when there is half the country paying no income taxes and thus clamoring for more and more stuff to be paid for by jacking up income taxes on other people

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Why don't you go through my post, see how man of my arguments in there are responses to your post right here, and then see if you have responses to those? Just repeating your conclusions and ignoring the actual arguments like you do is moronic. Do you really want to spend all day just exchanging "does so", "does not", "does so", "does not" type posts? That's fun to you?

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

OpportunityCost said:

I posted this before and never got a straight answer. Adam, Hay, how much of a cut do you think government should get, expressed in percentages? Please be specific include both corporate taxes then dividends. Explain your rationale if you could as well.

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I favor three things

1) all federal income tax rates should go up five points
2) stop applying discriminatory preferences for different sources as income and simply tax all money an individual makes as income according to the standard rate applicable on the progressive chart
3- stop giving the top 6% a break on FICA and pop the cap while freezing benefit levels

I do not have a proposal for corporate taxes but would endorse this from Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/end-tax-breaks-for-profit_b_841173.html

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:

I favor three things

1) all federal income tax rates should go up five points
2) stop applying discriminatory preferences for different sources as income and simply tax all money an individual makes as income according to the standard rate applicable on the progressive chart
3- stop giving the top 6% a break on FICA and pop the cap while freezing benefit levels

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IN other words making FICA another income redistribution program. make the rich pay more and get no additional benefits--sounds wonderful

lets cut government substantially and after that has been in place for a few years then we might consider tax hikes starting with those not paying their share of the income tax. "their share" being if a group earns 10% of the national income they pay 10% of the income tax

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

IN other words making FICA another income redistribution program. make the rich pay more and get no additional benefits--sounds wonderful

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You ignore the tremendous benefit of living in a just and more equitable society which buys long term peace for all Americans -and that includes you Turtle.