Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

The flat tax makes our system more regressive, and we have already gone too far in that direction when someone making $24 million dollars is paying 14% tax rate and someone making $50,000 is paying a 22%-23% tax rate.

Now back to the question you skirted:

"Do you think it is "screwing the rich" to require someone making $24 million dollars to pay the same effective tax rate as someone making $50,000?"

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Back to the answer that is not a skirt but something that you glossed over with an untrue rebuttal.

Flat Tax = Fair & Simple .......... not regressive if it applies to capital gains, income and SS.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

The flat tax makes our system more regressive, and we have already gone too far in that direction when someone making $24 million dollars is paying 14% tax rate and someone making $50,000 is paying a 22%-23% tax rate.

Now back to the question you skirted:

"Do you think it is "screwing the rich" to require someone making $24 million dollars to pay the same effective tax rate as someone making $50,000?"

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Except they aren't paying 22-23% effective tax rate.

Please show how you think they are. Because I can pull back out my tax returns from way back, when I made 50k, and my effective rate was in the ballpark of 5%. A childless person making 50k a year has an effective tax rate of 6.1%. If you have a child or two, its cut at least in half.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

The flat tax makes our system more regressive, and we have already gone too far in that direction when someone making $24 million dollars is paying 14% tax rate and someone making $50,000 is paying a 22%-23% tax rate.

Now back to the question you skirted:

"Do you think it is "screwing the rich" to require someone making $24 million dollars to pay the same effective tax rate as someone making $50,000?"

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Absolutely false claim. Better known as a lie.

The records show Romney paid an effective tax rate of 13.9 percent on his adjusted gross income for 2010, and 15.4 percent for 2011. The average effective tax rate of American taxpayers is 11 percent, says the Tax Foundation, a Washington, D.C. nonprofit that supports lower taxes.

Tax returns show Romney's tax rate is higher than the average American's - Boston Business Journal

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So here it is folks....The dishonesty is being unmasked from the liberal class war based argument...This is why I think Cat ignored it when I brought it up earlier.


j-mac

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

grip said:

Wouldn't a flat tax rate be more fair and eliminate tax dodges?

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I used to think that flat tax was the way to go. But now that I've really decided to "look into" our tax structure, I can't imagine it ever happening. Oooo!! Unless maybe it was a tiered flat tax...no deductions. Like 3% on the $X up to $X....graduating up to 25% from $X on up. A flat tax across the board would screw everyone except the very rich.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

MaggieD said:

I used to think that flat tax was the way to go. But now that I've really decided to "look into" our tax structure, I can't imagine it ever happening. Oooo!! Unless maybe it was a tiered flat tax...no deductions. Like 3% on the $X up to $X....graduating up to 25% from $X on up. A flat tax across the board would screw everyone except the very rich.

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A tax bracket system with lower rates than we have today, plus 0 deductions, would generate more revenue than the existing system, simply because everyone would be paying taxes.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Samhain said:

A tax bracket system with lower rates than we have today, plus 0 deductions, would generate more revenue than the existing system, simply because everyone would be paying taxes.

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Plus it would shift the Marxist approach of looking at success as some kind of moral failing.

I would love to be able to file my taxes on a post card.

j-mac

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

MaggieD said:

I used to think that flat tax was the way to go. But now that I've really decided to "look into" our tax structure, I can't imagine it ever happening. Oooo!! Unless maybe it was a tiered flat tax...no deductions. Like 3% on the $X up to $X....graduating up to 25% from $X on up. A flat tax across the board would screw everyone except the very rich.

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How does paying a lower flat tax on all income screw anyone? I think the government is the big screwer. And the rich, especially corporate currently hide much of their taxable wealth. A flat tax to me is like a law that applies fairly to everyone. Taking more from an entity because they make more isn't an even application of a rule it's a penalty for being successful. Now I could possibly see that a corporation that has a certain amount of excessive profit off American citizens paying an extra reasonable portion because it wouldn't affect them negatively and they gained the most from free enterprise, so they can afford to support the people who help build their success through purchases.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

grip said:

How does paying a lower flat tax on all income screw anyone? I think the government is the big screwer. And the rich, especially corporate currently hide much of their taxable wealth. A flat tax to me is like a law that applies fairly to everyone. Taking more from an entity because they make more isn't an even application of a rule it's a penalty for being successful. Now I could possibly see that a corporation that has a certain amount of excessive profit off American citizens paying an extra reasonable portion because it wouldn't affect them negatively and they gained the most from free enterprise, so they can afford to support the people who help build their success through purchases.

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No, no, no, dear God no.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

What the hell is "excessive profit"????


j-mac

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

grip said:

Back to the answer that is not a skirt but something that you glossed over with an untrue rebuttal.

Flat Tax = Fair & Simple .......... not regressive if it applies to capital gains, income and SS.

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Flat Tax Is Class Warfare

"Holley Ulbrich is an economics professor emeritus and senior fellow at the Strom Thurmond Institute at Clemson University.

Albert Einstein said that "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." Good advice for people who want to redesign tax systems. It's true that there are now 24 countries with a flat tax, but none of them got there by scrapping an established progressive income tax system nearly 100 years old. Fifteen of these countries are formerly Communist countries of Eastern and Central Europe. The others are very small, ranging from Montenegro to Iceland. No major industrial nation has made that choice. There are good reasons for going slowly.

The attraction of simplicity hides a big change in the distribution of tax obligations among the poor, the middle class, and the rich. When think tanks like Cato and Heritage support changes that redistribute the tax burden in that way, they usually warn us of the evils of class warfare. But the proposed flat tax is, in fact, class warfare—yet another attempt to reduce the tax obligations of higher-income households in exchange for the unenforceable hope or promise that they might use the money to invest and create jobs, maybe even jobs in the United States."

"Sales taxes are regressive—they take a higher share of low incomes than higher incomes. State and local income taxes range from flat to mildly progressive. Payroll taxes are moderately regressive because they fall on only wages and salaries and only up to a maximum of $106,800 in earnings. The distribution of the property tax burden is not clear, but the family home is the primary financial asset for most middle-income households. Property taxes are levied on homes, but rarely on other kinds of financial assets. State and local governments also depend on fees and charges for services, which fall heavily on lower-income households, for 44 percent of their revenue. So a moderately progressive federal income tax, with rates ranging from 15 percent to 35 percent, helps to offset regressive taxes elsewhere.

The rhetoric about ending double taxation ignores the fact that under a flat tax, wages would still be taxed twice, but dividends only once. Wage earners pay both payroll and income taxes. They've paid double taxes since 1935. Why should income from owning financial assets be treated differently—especially since most of that income goes to upper-income households?

A flat tax would shift tax obligations from the rich to the poor, and especially the middle class, and eliminate desirable tax incentives for retirement savings, home ownership, and charitable contributions. Simple? Yes. Efficient and equitable? Not so much."

Flat Tax Is Class Warfare - US News and World Report

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

The flat tax makes our system more regressive, and we have already gone too far in that direction when someone making $24 million dollars is paying 14% tax rate and someone making $50,000 is paying a 22%-23% tax rate.

Now back to the question you skirted:

"Do you think it is "screwing the rich" to require someone making $24 million dollars to pay the same effective tax rate as someone making $50,000?"

Click to expand...

Except they aren't paying 22-23% effective tax rate.

Please show how you think they are. Because I can pull back out my tax returns from way back, when I made 50k, and my effective rate was in the ballpark of 5%. A childless person making 50k a year has an effective tax rate of 6.1%. If you have a child or two, its cut at least in half.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Samhain said:

Except they aren't paying 22-23% effective tax rate.

Please show how you think they are. Because I can pull back out my tax returns from way back, when I made 50k, and my effective rate was in the ballpark of 5%. A childless person making 50k a year has an effective tax rate of 6.1%. If you have a child or two, its cut at least in half.

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We were comparing the effective tax rates for Romney at $24 million made primarily from investment income versus effective tax rates for someone making $50,00 who is required to pay both income taxes and payroll taxes on his entire income.

"We found that a typical taxpayer with $50,000 in income pays 22 to 23 percent in income and payroll taxes"
PolitiFact | Barack Obama says construction workers pay higher tax rate than someone earning $50 million a year

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

We were comparing the effective tax rates for Romney at $24 million made primarily from investment income versus effective tax rates for someone making $50,00 who is required to pay both income taxes and payroll taxes on his entire income.

"We found that a typical taxpayer with $50,000 in income pays 22 to 23 percent in income and payroll taxes"
PolitiFact | Barack Obama says construction workers pay higher tax rate than someone earning $50 million a year

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As I pointed out previously you missed important points in the article. For one:

"They estimated that combining the workers’ share of the payroll tax with the employer’s share -- the usual practice among economists -- would mean an extra 15 percentage points for our hypothetical middle-class worker"

So the percentages you continue to post include the EMPLOYER'S SHARE of FICA and this should be included in the calculation. Why? I understand the presumption but does it show on one's W-2?

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

We were comparing the effective tax rates for Romney at $24 million made primarily from investment income versus effective tax rates for someone making $50,00 who is required to pay both income taxes and payroll taxes on his entire income.

"We found that a typical taxpayer with $50,000 in income pays 22 to 23 percent in income and payroll taxes"
PolitiFact | Barack Obama says construction workers pay higher tax rate than someone earning $50 million a year

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From your own link:

The bottom line is that taxpayers in Obama’s construction-worker income range tended to pay an effective federal income tax rate of 7 percent to 8 percent.

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The same chart provides a figure for returns with at least $10 million in adjusted gross income. There were 11,050 returns in this category, and their effective federal income tax rate ranged from 17.9 percent to 28.5 percent, depending on which of the three filing categories they fell into.

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When someone is discussing Effective Tax Rate, they are talking about Federal taxes. Social Security and Medicare, while they would change the "mix," are not taxes per se; they are more akin to insurance premiums, albeit forced.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:

Absolutely false claim. Better known as a lie.



So here it is folks....The dishonesty is being unmasked from the liberal class war based argument...This is why I think Cat ignored it when I brought it up earlier.


j-mac

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Your point is ignorant and ignores the payroll tax that someone making $50,000 has to pay on his entire income in addition to the income tax he has to pay on his entire income. Those that make their money primarily from investments, do not have to pay payroll taxes on their entire income which is why Romney pays 13.9% tax rate on his $24 million while someone just making $50,000 has to pay 22%-23% tax rate.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Samhain said:

A tax bracket system with lower rates than we have today, plus 0 deductions, would generate more revenue than the existing system, simply because everyone would be paying taxes.

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Everyone is paying taxes now except the disabled and elderly poor. How much you propose we tax the disabled and elderly poor????

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

Your point is ignorant and ignores the payroll tax that someone making $50,000 has to pay on his entire income in addition to the income tax he has to pay on his entire income. Those that make their money primarily from investments, do not have to pay payroll taxes on their entire income which is why Romney pays 13.9% tax rate on his $24 million while someone just making $50,000 has to pay 22%-23% tax rate.

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You are comparing apples to oranges. Your 22-23% includes all other payroll taxes, while your 13.9% does not.

Try this factcheck article, FactCheck.org : Obama’s Teacher Tax Whopper, which is where the 50k = 6.1% effective tax rate number comes from as well, you will see that including payroll taxes on someone like the President gets their effective tax rate into the 30s, percent wise.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

MaggieD said:

From your own link:
When someone is discussing Effective Tax Rate, they are talking about Federal taxes. Social Security and Medicare, while they would change the "mix," are not taxes per se; they are more akin to insurance premiums, albeit forced.

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Dickieboy said:

As I pointed out previously you missed important points in the article. For one:

"They estimated that combining the workers’ share of the payroll tax with the employer’s share -- the usual practice among economists -- would mean an extra 15 percentage points for our hypothetical middle-class worker"

So the percentages you continue to post include the EMPLOYER'S SHARE of FICA and this should be included in the calculation. Why? I understand the presumption but does it show on one's W-2?

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From the politifact finding:

"We asked two researchers at the Urban Institute-Brookings Institute Tax Policy Center, Roberton Williams and Rachel Johnson, for their advice on how to factor in payroll taxes. They estimated that combining the workers’ share of the payroll tax with the employer’s share -- the usual practice among economists -- would mean an extra 15 percentage points for our hypothetical middle-class worker, and less than 2 additional percentage points for the high-income taxpayer.

"Adding these to the percentages we previously found for the income tax alone produces a new, "final" rate of 22 to 23 percent for the construction worker and 20 to 30 percent for the $50 million earner."

And what makes Romney's effective tax rate only 13.9% is that because his income is primarily from investment income, he pays virtually no payroll taxes on his entire income.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Samhain said:

Your 22-23% includes all other payroll taxes, while your 13.9% does not.

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Now you are beginning to get it!!! Someone that make their income primarily from investments pays virtually no payroll taxes, while the guy making $50,000 has to pay both income taxes and payroll taxes on his entire income.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

Now you are beginning to get it!!! Someone that make their income primarily from investments pays virtually no payroll taxes, while the guy making $50,000 has to pay both income taxes and payroll taxes on his entire income.

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And your 22% number doesn't count deductions. Add in a child, or get married, and that number drops to the low teens.

If you increase the amount of funds that are available to the payroll tax(i.e. remove the 106k cap, or include all income ), you have to increase the benefits of those programs. So in the end, you make higher income earners pay more into the system while also giving them back more in benefits.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:

What the hell is "excessive profit"????


j-mac

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Exxon making $40 billion profit in one year. They monopolize an industry and control pricing.

Dec. 26, 2008—Gas prices tumble to $1.64 a gallon. Some areas seeing prices as low as $1.45 a gallon. Crude oil is just a little over $40 a barrel.

Dec. 31, 2008—Crude oil prices plummet below $37 a barrel while the U.S. average price for a gallon of regular unleaded gasoline falls to an amazing 5-year low of $1.61.

The US dollar is backed by petro-pricing, which is the only reason market investments still use our currency for valuation. If the first goes then the second follows and collapses the dollar and bond market to show it's true value. The ME wars have very little to do with democracy and dictators, they're geopolitical strategies to secure continued access to resources that affect economies world wide.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

Now you are beginning to get it!!! Someone that make their income primarily from investments pays virtually no payroll taxes, while the guy making $50,000 has to pay both income taxes and payroll taxes on his entire income.

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Payroll "taxes" are not taxes. They are insurance premiums.

Average 2011 monthly Social Security benefits

•Retired worker: $1,174
•Retired couple: $1,907
•Disabled worker: $1,067
•Disabled worker with a spouse and child: $1,813
•Widow or widower: $1,133
•Young widow or widower with two children: $2,409

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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

To fix the current economic mess you have to figure out what caused it. The corporations and investors gave out too much credit in the form of housing, cars, PC's, TV's, fart phones, recreational vehicles, credit cards, etc. The people gobbled it up and wanted more. The economy took off like a rocket. The government made more in revenues taxing all this new income. They ramped up their budgets and over spent. But the greed was all the way around and the cause. Now we have this over bloated tick of a society that needs a financial haircut. Get the hippies and freeloaders back to work, stop the government from over spending and regulate the monopolizing corporations from bleeding the economy. The people, government and corporations all need each other, so we have to find a fair balance. Now vote for me because I'll kick everyone's ass...lol

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Samhain said:

Considering the actual average effective tax rate is 11%, your comparison to a waitress is disingenuous at best.

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actually, its right on the money

Tax Brackets (Federal Income Tax Rates) 2000 through 2011 and 2012

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:

I think every American should read this:

THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO


And apply it to today's liberal to understand where they are coming from...

j-mac

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That makes about as much logical sense as me linking to MEIN KAMPF and saying it exlains right wing thinking in America today.