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Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Dickieboy said:
WHOAA back there big boy, are you making this statement using 'marginal', 'effective' or the constantly spouted 'All taxes, not just one kind or another, all taxes'?
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Except for a four year period, both marginal and effective, for just federal:

"Even so, when Obama said that "if you're a … wealthy CEO or a … hedge fund manager in America right now, your taxes are … lower than they've been since the 1950s," he's close: Their tax rates are at or near the lows for the years elapsed since then.

The top marginal income tax rates were lower between 1988 and 1992 than they are today, but otherwise, Obama is right. They were higher for the other years. Meanwhile, the rates that are used to tax carried interest for hedge-fund managers have been at historical lows since 2003. And effective tax rates for high-income earners were either at their lowest since 1960 or very close to their lowest (at least according to the most recent data available). On balance, we rate Obama’s statement Mostly True."

PolitiFact | Barack Obama says tax rates are lowest since 1950s for CEOs, hedge fund managers

When you add in state taxes, effective rates are higher for the working class than the super rich:

The 53% Myth: Working Poor Pay More Of Their Income In State And Local Taxes Than The Rich In 49 States

"For example, if you look at state and local taxes, the working poor actually pay a higher percentage of their income in these taxes in every state except for Vermont. In “Alabama, for example, low-income families (which make less than $13,000) pay 11 percent of their income in state and local taxes, while those making more than $229,000 pay just 4 percent.”
bigtaxcut.png
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
And still no logical case made for the discriminatory preferential tax rates for capital gains which benefit mostly the wealthy.

Lots of pontificating. But still no case made.
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How about this:

The lower tax rate on dividends lowers the effective tax rate on investment in the corporate sector relative to the other sectors. The reduction in the double tax on corporate profits results in a more even taxation of investments across production sectors, a more efficient allocation of capital, and an increase in output.

When lower taxes on capital income are financed initially by issuing government debt, private investment is crowded out by an increase in government borrowing. Private saving may increase as a result of the tax relief (and may be augmented by capital inflows from abroad), but private investment will generally not increase by the same amount because a portion of the increase in private saving funds the increase in government debt. When the majority of the tax relief is on labor income, the crowding-out effect is even larger and private investment could even decline in the short run.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Dickieboy said:
How about this:

The lower tax rate on dividends lowers the effective tax rate on investment in the corporate sector relative to the other sectors. The reduction in the double tax on corporate profits results in a more even taxation of investments across production sectors, a more efficient allocation of capital, and an increase in output.
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That is the theory of trickle down economics, where is the beef??? Where are the jobs that were supposed to be created by the last decade of tax cuts?

When lower taxes on capital income are financed initially by issuing government debt, private investment is crowded out by an increase in government borrowing. Private saving may increase as a result of the tax relief (and may be augmented by capital inflows from abroad), but private investment will generally not increase by the same amount because a portion of the increase in private saving funds the increase in government debt. When the majority of the tax relief is on labor income, the crowding-out effect is even larger and private investment could even decline in the short run.
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No evidence of that in the 90's. We created 22 million jobs.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

VanceMack said:
And yet...for some strange reason...now...hang with me for a second...you nor anyone else here starts a "Kerry only paid 15%" thread. Shocking...right?
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they seem similarly un-incensed about Obama taking advantage of tax credits and rates he decries
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
You wanna know what is absolutely sick Turtle? Sick to the point of inducing violent vomitting? Discriminatory tax rates which benefit the riches people in our society more than anybody else. And people who defend them out of pure selfish greed because they want what they want and they like it that way and screw anybody else who dare raise the spectre of taxing all money coming into a person pocket as income according to the same rate schedule.

Now that is disgusting.
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Apparently the concept of an American citizen advocating for a national tax policy is foreign to you?
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:
HOw can anyone claim that tax rates discriminate in favor of the rich when one percent pay 40% of the income tax
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Because that's not enough. They should be paying more.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Always more. They have to be able to afford their European welfare state, after all.

Yet, the wealthy are already paying their share and then some. Compared to European nations, it's not that we don't tax the rich, it's that we don't tax the middle class.



and for those who think that taxing capital gains at higher rates is going to be some kind of panacea... they forget: people are dynamic entities capable of responding to changes in incentive structures - and capital investment is far more fungible than labor
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:
Its all he's got..............

Neither he, nor the GOP can answer why the working class should vote to continue the tax cuts for the wealthy.
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They shouldn't.

In fact, it is in the best interest of the working class for them to take all the weathy's money and confiscate their property. And perhaps if the wealthy have any hot wives or daughters, it would be in their best interest to divide these trophies among themselves. And it might also be in their best interest to kill all the wealthy too, just to make sure they can't accumulate wealth again.

As you say, it is imperative that the working class vote in its best interest.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
It has become painfully obvious that never once in all these discussions about capital gains have the defenders of the discriminatory preferences which mainly benefit the rich have ever provided any reasons why salaried workers should support allowing such discrimination to go on. Not once.

And even now after being challenged hundreds of times they are still impotent to provide a reasonable case why someone making $600,000 in salary should pay 35% while someone making the same amount in capital gains should pay 15%.

Or maybe today is that day?
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There should be no discrimination. I'd suggest they both be taxed at the same 15% rate.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

When the Romney tax returns are released tomorrow - Tuesday - the nation will focus on why he pays so little when others who make far less pay more. The subject of long term capital gains will be front and center and there will be a national debate about them.

The average American does not have enough disposable income to take advantage of the discriminatory preferences afforded by capital gains. The overwhelming majority of benefit goes to the wealthy.

So here is the challenge for any who want to take it - and even if those here are not up to the task - someone on the national stage will have to do it: lets take two people
A - Greg Bartlet - a successful record producer who makes $800,000 a year in salary. He pays a tax rate of 35% for a bill of $280,000.00 in federal income tax minus deductions.

B - Wesley Weston - who makes investments and this year reaped $800,000 in long term capital gains profits. He pays a tax rate of 15% for a bill of $120,000.00 minus deduction.

Please explain to Bartlet why he should support a national tax policy which has him paying over twice as much more in federal income taxes than another American who earns the exact same amount as he did.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Centinel said:
There should be no discrimination. I'd suggest they both be taxed at the same 15% rate.
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For someone against taxing income you certainly changed your tune fast.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
When the Romney tax returns are released tomorrow - Tuesday - the nation will focus on why he pays so little when others who make far less pay more. The subject of long term capital gains will be front and center and there will be a national debate about them.

The average American does not have enough disposable income to take advantage of the discriminatory preferences afforded by capital gains. The overwhelming majority of benefit goes to the wealthy.

So here is the challenge for any who want to take it - and even if those here are not up to the task - someone on the national stage will have to do it: lets take two people
A - Greg Bartlet - a successful record producer who makes $800,000 a year in salary. He pays a tax rate of 35% for a bill of $280,000.00 in federal income tax minus deductions.

B - Wesley Weston - who makes investments and this year reaped $800,000 in long term capital gains profits. He pays a tax rate of 15% for a bill of $120,000.00 minus deduction.

Please explain to Bartlet why he should support a national tax policy which has him paying over twice as much more in federal income taxes than another American who earns the exact same amount as he did.
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Because investment is a risk. What Wesley Weston is doing moves capital from point to point and give companies the chance to grow. Growth equals jobs. His salary is not guaranteed (but really, who's is), it is dependent on his success of investment. He could easily have made $0.

We should encourage investment and growth in our economy.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

MaggieD said:
This post has been about Romney's effective tax rate on his Federal income tax. Your question cannot even be answered...#1, he hasn't released his income tax form; #2, neither you nor anyone else knows how much he pays in various other taxes.

However, IF his effective tax rate on his income is indeed 15%, it is far higher than the average American. And that is what Romney was referring to...as much as you'd like to spin it otherwise.

The median household income in the United States is about $46,000. A household with 2 children (single parent) and a mortgage deduction of $9,000 a year pays an effective tax rate of 2.17%. The median income of a dual-earner household with 2 children is about $67,000. Their effective tax rate, with a mortgage deduction of $12,000 is 3.96%.

You are completely 100% incorrect.

Marginal and Effective Tax Rates
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The dishonest argument is comparing every single tax someone has (which the federal income tax does not address when computing rates) and applying that number to them with the federal income tax ONLY as paid by some riche investor So what our tax hikers want us to admit is that Joe Average tax payer pays "27%" of his income to taxes that includes

1) federal income tax (which you have proven is many times lower than what a millionaire investor pays on his investment income solely to the IRS)

2) his FICA

3) Gasoline taxes


4) state sales taxes

5) state property taxes

6) state and city income taxes

7) state vehicle registration-or use tax

etc etc etc

its a completely dishonest comparison since those dishonest comparators fail to even discuss what a millionaire investor pays in all those other taxes
One of those posters has pretended only 1% which of course is a lie given many states have 5-10% state income tax rates to start with
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
When the Romney tax returns are released tomorrow - Tuesday - the nation will focus on why he pays so little when others who make far less pay more. The subject of long term capital gains will be front and center and there will be a national debate about them.

The average American does not have enough disposable income to take advantage of the discriminatory preferences afforded by capital gains. The overwhelming majority of benefit goes to the wealthy.

So here is the challenge for any who want to take it - and even if those here are not up to the task - someone on the national stage will have to do it: lets take two people
A - Greg Bartlet - a successful record producer who makes $800,000 a year in salary. He pays a tax rate of 35% for a bill of $280,000.00 in federal income tax minus deductions.

B - Wesley Weston - who makes investments and this year reaped $800,000 in long term capital gains profits. He pays a tax rate of 15% for a bill of $120,000.00 minus deduction.

Please explain to Bartlet why he should support a national tax policy which has him paying over twice as much more in federal income taxes than another American who earns the exact same amount as he did.
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Quite simple really. Do you understand what an investment is? Do you understand that an investment can lose money? Does the government guarantee a 35% compensation on investment losses? Would you walk roll the dice knowing that the house would take over a third of your winnings?

You seem to think that investment is like salary with lots of labor law statutes to protect you so there is minimal risk as in low-yield bonds where neither much capitol gains nor taxes are to be had.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Blue_State said:
Because investment is a risk. What Wesley Weston is doing moves capital from point to point and give companies the chance to grow. Growth equals jobs. His salary is not guaranteed (but really, who's is), it is dependent on his success of investment. He could easily have made $0.

We should encourage investment and growth in our economy.
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I figured it out. Public employees.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Meathead said:
Quite simple really. Do you understand what an investment is? Do you understand that an investment can lose money? Does the government guarantee a 35% compensation on investment losses? Would you walk roll the dice knowing that the house would take over a third of your winnings?

You seem to think that investment is like salary with lots of labor law statutes to protect you so there is minimal risk as in low-yield bonds where neither much capitol gains nor taxes are to be had.
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Yes.
Yes.
No. Nor should it.
People roll the dice every hour of every day knowing that the house wins 80% of the time.

None of that provides a single reason why an American would support such discriminatory preferences for capital gains which primarily benefit the wealthy over working people.

I await actual reasons why they should.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Blue_State said:
Because investment is a risk. What Wesley Weston is doing moves capital from point to point and give companies the chance to grow. Growth equals jobs. His salary is not guaranteed (but really, who's is), it is dependent on his success of investment. He could easily have made $0.

We should encourage investment and growth in our economy.
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You have shown zero connection between an investor getting a capital gains break and any actual real world job creation which helps Mr. Bartlett and gain his support for that discriminatory preference.
 
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from Turtle

its a completely dishonest comparison since those dishonest comparators fail to even discuss what a millionaire investor pays in all those other taxes
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Then by all means do present that data for us to examine.
 
haymarket said:
from Turtle



Then by all means do present that data for us to examine.
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why should i-its your buddy who is claiming that the average citizen's combined total state and federal tax bills are more than the single federal income tax a rich investor pays. I say WTH cares-its a dishonest comparision. That same poster then makes the completely unsupported assertion that the rich investor's TOTAL TAX cost (state and federal income taxes, state property taxes etc) are still the same 15% or perhaps 16% that included only his investments. That fails to include, once again, state income tax (Mass has a high one) state property taxes, FEDERAL INCOME TAX ON EARNED INCOME, state sales taxes.
 
TurtleDude said:
why should i-its your buddy who is claiming that the average citizen's combined total state and federal tax bills are more than the single federal income tax a rich investor pays. I say WTH cares-its a dishonest comparision. That same poster then makes the completely unsupported assertion that the rich investor's TOTAL TAX cost (state and federal income taxes, state property taxes etc) are still the same 15% or perhaps 16% that included only his investments. That fails to include, once again, state income tax (Mass has a high one) state property taxes, FEDERAL INCOME TAX ON EARNED INCOME, state sales taxes.
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Because you made an allegation of fact without presenting any support for the existence of that alleged fact.

You pointing at what you believe are faults in anothers posters position does not excuse or justify you making the same errors in failing to substantiate your own allegations of fact.

You made a claim of fact and the responsibility is upon you to support it if challenged. And you have been challenged to prove it.
 
haymarket said:
Because you made an allegation of fact without presenting any support for the existence of that alleged fact.

You pointing at what you believe are faults in anothers posters position does not excuse or justify you making the same errors in failing to substantiate your own allegations of fact.

You made a claim of fact and the responsibility is upon you to support it if challenged. And you have been challenged to prove it.
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YOu again fail to take issue with the dishonest assertions from your side and I have constantly stated that dishonest comparisions are just that. RIch investors pay a far higher effective (actual) federa income tax rate (as well as far more actual dollars) than average citizens do and indeed, one has to have earned income of well over the 200,000 range to approach the same effective income tax (federal) rate as a rich investor who has absolutely no earned income.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
Yes.
Yes.
No. Nor should it.
People roll the dice every hour of every day knowing that the house wins 80% of the time.

None of that provides a single reason why an American would support such discriminatory preferences for capital gains which primarily benefit the wealthy over working people.

I await actual reasons why they should.
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Would you walk roll the dice knowing that the house would take over a third of your winnings?
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

People roll the dice every hour of every day knowing that the house wins 80% of the time.

If I win a million and the government claims a third, I am more than happy to keep that 2/3 I won. I would be one very happy citizen.
 
TurtleDude said:
YOu again fail to take issue with the dishonest assertions from your side and I have constantly stated that dishonest comparisions are just that. RIch investors pay a far higher effective (actual) federa income tax rate (as well as far more actual dollars) than average citizens do and indeed, one has to have earned income of well over the 200,000 range to approach the same effective income tax (federal) rate as a rich investor who has absolutely no earned income.
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And none of that offers one single reason why a person should support discriminatory tax preferences for long term gains.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Yes.
Yes.
No. Nor should it.
People roll the dice every hour of every day knowing that the house wins 80% of the time.

None of that provides a single reason why an American would support such discriminatory preferences for capital gains which primarily benefit the wealthy over working people.

I await actual reasons why they should.[/QUOTE]

Yeah....
In U.S., 54% Have Stock Market Investments, Lowest Since 1999

PRINCETON, NJ -- Even as stocks have returned to lofty heights from their March 2009 lows, the percentage of Americans saying they hold individual stocks, stock mutual funds, or stocks in their 401(k) or IRA fell to 54% in April -- the lowest level since Gallup began monitoring stock ownership annually in 1999. Self-reported stock ownership has trended downward since 2007 -- before the recession and financial crisis began -- when 65% of Americans owned stocks.
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Stock Market ownership.jpg

So it seems like about 54% still own stock and are affected by Capital Gains tax, including a huge swath of the electorate with retirement plans. Please define "wealthy" in real dollar terms instead of platitudes.
 
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