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Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:
Wow, you sure have a lot of balls dude...Speaking for everyone else as though you could.


j-mac
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I speak for a rational tax policy for America and for an end to discriminatory tax rates which primarily benefit the rich. In your eyes this is some sort of transgression?
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:
Not sure what your argument is here. Can you lay it out?
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I think I already have. Capital gains treatment of dividends is another piece of social engineering, in my opinion. It encourages investors to invest in the stock market rather than put their money in their mattresses or in banks. You're arguing that people can invest in foreign corporations, receive dividends from them, and are also taxed at the favored rate doesn't negate its value as an investment incentive in American companies.

Mostly false. Lets say that the double taxation on dividends issue in effect increases the capital gains tax rate to say 15.1% or so. Whoptie do.
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Your "Let's say..." assumption doesn't hold water. These corporations should be paying 35% tax on those dividends. Of course, they're not because, as you point out, they're too busy finding ways around it. And Congress is too busy to close these legal loopholes. My point is that 35% + 15% = 50%. Don't penalize the individual investor because Congress has, yet again, let big business off the hook.[/QUOTE]

If you lose money overall, you owe no taxes. Losses offset profits.
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I own 1000 shares of XYZ stock. I receive $10,000 in dividends over 10 years. I pay 15% tax on those dividends. In year 11, I sell those 1,000 shares for $10,000 less than I paid for it. Assuming I have no offsetting gains, I get to deduct $3,000 (I think) in losses every year until I've used up the $10,000. In the meantime, I've paid tax on $10,000 of dividends that were taxed as income when, in fact, I lost money.

That the thread you are on shows one of the reasons that the double taxation argument doesn't really have much impact. In the case of Romney's money, there was nobody else paying taxes. Bain Capital didn't pay any taxes on the money. They just gave it to Romney and he paid 15% and that was that.
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I responded initially to Haymarket's post that no one had posted up any reasons why a 15% capital gains rate made sense. I posted up several. Don't like 'em? It's the best I can do.

I personally think that the favorable treatment of capital gains needs revisiting...for all of the reasons you've pointed out. Our tax code is a freakin' mess. The capital gains tax is just one area. Corporate income tax is even more aggregious.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
Baloney Maggie. That is utter poppycock. You are way too smart to fall for that double taxation BS and think it means anything.

Money is taxed hundreds of times. I get 1000$ in salary and pay tax on it. I pay it to the store and they pay tax on it. They pay it to a worker in wages and they pay tax on it. She pays it to her landlord who pays tax on it. The landlord pays it to a handyman to do repairs on his units and pays tax on it. And on and on and on and on and on. every time the money changes hands with a new owner, there is potential tax liability.

But the rich and their defenders pretend that capital gains are some special thing that defies the rule of money ownership.

Gimme me the worlds smallest violin.
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more lies that ignores reality

the same pot of money is taxed twice by the same entity. there is no transaction when a corporation transfers money to its owners like there is when other transactions are taxed

when I earn income it is taxed by the government. when I hire you to cut my grass or do my taxes I pay you income. That money is again taxed but that is because it has been exchanged for services. Same thing If I buy a tennis racquet from Haymarket's tennis supply shop.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
There is no picture to get. None of those even begin to approach a logical rational reason why the average working person should support a discriminatory and preferential tax rate on capital gains which primarily benefit the wealthy that is less than half of a worker making the same amount.
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Could you explain what is discriminatory about the Cap Gains tax?

j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
I speak for a rational tax policy for America and for an end to discriminatory tax rates which primarily benefit the rich. In your eyes this is some sort of transgression?
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your concept of rational is making the rich pay more and more

how about everyone paying the same flat rate on all income

how about no one being taxed in income but rather transactions

both of those are FAR MORE RATIONAL than this complex VOTE BUYING scheme that Congress loves in order to buy more power by using the tax code to reward supporters and punish those who vote for their opponents?
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:
Could you explain what is discriminatory about the Cap Gains tax?

j-mac
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Its not but some believe that the progressive scheme that is biased against the wealthy is properly applied to all taxes. that is how far left propaganda sites claim that the US TAX SYSTEM (which only has a few progressive taxes in the many different taxes that make up the US tax system-which includes state sales taxes, state property taxes, luxury taxes, excise taxes etc) is not as progressive as it should be. They include dozens of taxes that were NEVER INTENDED to be progressive with the asinine assumption that the entire tax system should be progressive rather than those few taxes which were intended to be progressive
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
I speak for a rational tax policy for America and for an end to discriminatory tax rates which primarily benefit the rich. In your eyes this is some sort of transgression?
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Rational? You think soaking one level of wealth in this country, while using their earnings to fund those that pay nothing into society is rational? There ain't enough Kool Aid in the world to see things as messed up as you are laying them out.

Peace.

j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:
There are several. 1. Consideration of money in small business (which in case you forgot employ's the lion share of people in this country) are treated as "rich" in democrat dishonest claims.
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Proof? All the proposals I've seen coming out of Congress to help small businesses have been from the Democrats. The stimulus that the GOP opposed helped small businesses, as does the American's Jobs Act that the GOP opposed.



2. That the term "rich" is overly vague and can be moved ever downward as liberal progressives start running out of upper income levels to fund their spending. Think AMT.

3. I always try to keep in mind the old adage...."They came for my neighbors things and I said nothing....."

Get the picture....?


j-mac
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Yes, the picture is loud and clear the GOP has nothing to offer the working class to continue the tax cuts for the rich in November.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
Baloney Maggie. That is utter poppycock. You are way too smart to fall for that double taxation BS and think it means anything.

Money is taxed hundreds of times. I get 1000$ in salary and pay tax on it. I pay it to the store and they pay tax on it. They pay it to a worker in wages and they pay tax on it. She pays it to her landlord who pays tax on it. The landlord pays it to a handyman to do repairs on his units and pays tax on it. And on and on and on and on and on. every time the money changes hands with a new owner, there is potential tax liability.

But the rich and their defenders pretend that capital gains are some special thing that defies the rule of money ownership.

Gimme me the worlds smallest violin.
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Your wish is my command.

volin.jpg

:rofl -- Seriously, though, the company pays you salary and gets to deduct that salary...they don't pay tax on it. You do. Business expenses are tax deductible. Another example: You pay your ex-wife alimony. You deduct it. She pays the tax. Can't think of any more examples off hand, but there are plenty. And I'm still laughing about the violin. ;)
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

This is what I know about politicians and taxed. None of them are actually playing much. If Romney ain't payin many then you can bet Obama, Clinton, and all them guys are not. They don't get in trouble for insider trading too.

And I do know that progressive property taxes hurt the poor schools too. The more you drop property taxes on the poor areas the worse the poor schools suffer.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:
Its not but some believe that the progressive scheme that is biased against the wealthy is properly applied to all taxes. that is how far left propaganda sites claim that the US TAX SYSTEM (which only has a few progressive taxes in the many different taxes that make up the US tax system-which includes state sales taxes, state property taxes, luxury taxes, excise taxes etc) is not as progressive as it should be. They include dozens of taxes that were NEVER INTENDED to be progressive with the asinine assumption that the entire tax system should be progressive rather than those few taxes which were intended to be progressive
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What I think will be a real shame is when capital shrinks due to people with the money investing less due to this blatant grab into their pockets. When that happens we are done.


j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

MaggieD said:
I think I already have. Capital gains treatment of dividends is another piece of social engineering, in my opinion. It encourages investors to invest in the stock market rather than put their money in their mattresses or in banks.
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Oh, ok. That argument doesn't hold water. Even if there were say a 90% tax on investment profits, it would still be more profitable to invest than to put it under your matress, and even with an 80% tax it would still be more profitable than leaving it in a bank account. And, regardless, banks just invest the money deposited anyways.

MaggieD said:
Your "Let's say..." assumption doesn't hold water. These corporations should be paying 35% tax on those dividends. Of course, they're not because, as you point out, they're too busy finding ways around it. And Congress is too busy to close these legal loopholes. My point is that 35% + 15% = 50%. Don't penalize the individual investor because Congress has, yet again, let big business off the hook.
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It's not a question of whether to penalize individual investors for something, it is a question of whether they can claim credit for something that isn't actually happening. They cannot.

If every company- not just corporations- actually paid 35% on every dollar they gave out in taxes, I would be willing to accept a lower individual tax rate for dividends. But in reality they don't. Companies that pay a lot of dividends organize themselves as partnerships so they don't have to pay taxes and companies organized as corporations don't really pay much in dividends. So it isn't a real issue.

MaggieD said:
I own 1000 shares of XYZ stock. I receive $10,000 in dividends over 10 years. I pay 15% tax on those dividends. In year 11, I sell those 1,000 shares for $10,000 less than I paid for it. Assuming I have no offsetting gains, I get to deduct $3,000 (I think) in losses every year until I've used up the $10,000. In the meantime, I've paid tax on $10,000 of dividends that were taxed as income when, in fact, I lost money.
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So your concern is that you would like to be able to defer more losses. I have no opinion on that either way.

MaggieD said:
I personally think that the favorable treatment of capital gains needs revisiting...for all of the reasons you've pointed out. Our tax code is a freakin' mess. The capital gains tax is just one area. Corporate income tax is even more aggregious.
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Agreed. Personally I would be ok with just eliminating corporate income taxes if we did it at the same time as we eliminated the tax breaks for capital gains and just started taxing it as normal income.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:
more lies that ignores reality

the same pot of money is taxed twice by the same entity. there is no transaction when a corporation transfers money to its owners like there is when other transactions are taxed

when I earn income it is taxed by the government. when I hire you to cut my grass or do my taxes I pay you income. That money is again taxed but that is because it has been exchanged for services. Same thing If I buy a tennis racquet from Haymarket's tennis supply shop.
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that is such utter and complete garbage.

Those freaking "OWNERS" are mere holders of stock. As such they have very limited rights. Let them waltz in to the factory one day and start taking product because - as you call them, they are a freaking OWNER. Welcome to the slammer Mr. OWNER.

Corporations are a legal entity. But wait. The law has been given to you more times than a ninety year old lady has to drink prune juice so you should already know this. As a legal entity they pay their own tax bill. A human taxpayer is a different legal entity and as such they pay their own tax bill. But again, you already know that too.

So the question that is central here is WHY WHY WHY do you keep insisting on the lie that your already know is a lie?

Wait - I know - Gollum and the One Ring again.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

MaggieD said:
Your wish is my command.

View attachment 67121489

:rofl -- Seriously, though, the company pays you salary and gets to deduct that salary...they don't pay tax on it. You do. Business expenses are tax deductible. Another example: You pay your ex-wife alimony. You deduct it. She pays the tax. Can't think of any more examples off hand, but there are plenty. And I'm still laughing about the violin. ;)
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we see that silly violin comment and we will also see the left claiming that envy has nothing to do with their whines that the rich should pay more money.

the dividend double taxation is like this. Lots of companies use payroll services. I owe my employees 1 million. It would be like Turtle Inc transferring 1 million to payroll inc and the government taking 35% of it and then when payroll inc pays the employees, the government taxing their income as well. same pot of money, same taxing authority

its double taxation
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

j-mac said:
What I think will be a real shame is when capital shrinks due to people with the money investing less due to this blatant grab into their pockets. When that happens we are done.


j-mac
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Could you give us the name of that high school Economics text so we can see if you got the theory right?
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:
we see that silly violin comment and we will also see the left claiming that envy has nothing to do with their whines that the rich should pay more money.

the dividend double taxation is like this. Lots of companies use payroll services. I owe my employees 1 million. It would be like Turtle Inc transferring 1 million to payroll inc and the government taking 35% of it and then when payroll inc pays the employees, the government taxing their income as well. same pot of money, same taxing authority

its double taxation
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Repeating the same lie a million times does not give it any more of a sheen of legitimacy.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
that is such utter and complete garbage.

Those freaking "OWNERS" are mere holders of stock. As such they have very limited rights. Let them waltz in to the factory one day and start taking product because - as you call them, they are a freaking OWNER. Welcome to the slammer Mr. OWNER.

Corporations are a legal entity. But wait. The law has been given to you more times than a ninety year old lady has to drink prune juice so you should already know this. As a legal entity they pay their own tax bill. A human taxpayer is a different legal entity and as such they pay their own tax bill. But again, you already know that too.

So the question that is central here is WHY WHY WHY do you keep insisting on the lie that your already know is a lie?

Wait - I know - Gollum and the One Ring again.
Click to expand...

I realize the desire of some for the government to get as much money as possible. Some people believe that the government is far wiser in using the money than others. that is the only possible way to justify this sort of attitude. Its not like the government doesn't get a huge cut. But to justify the government taking 35% of the same pot of money at one level and then wanting it to take 40% again at the second level is frankly sick IMHO.

That you think the government should tax say a million dollars 350K and then the remaining 650K at 40% meaning that of the million earned by the company the government taxes 350K and then 240+K again is disgusting
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

MaggieD said:
Your wish is my command.

View attachment 67121489

:rofl -- Seriously, though, the company pays you salary and gets to deduct that salary...they don't pay tax on it. You do. Business expenses are tax deductible. Another example: You pay your ex-wife alimony. You deduct it. She pays the tax. Can't think of any more examples off hand, but there are plenty. And I'm still laughing about the violin. ;)
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Maggie - I feel asleep watching the football game and woke up crabby. Sorry if I took it out on you.

But there is no double taxation since it is on two different legal entities.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
Repeating the same lie a million times does not give it any more of a sheen of legitimacy.
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I don't know, Haymarket...I think Turtle's analogy re salary is on target. How do you counter that?
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
Repeating the same lie a million times does not give it any more of a sheen of legitimacy.
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arguing for money you have done nothing to earn or produce is really pathetic
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:
I realize the desire of some for the government to get as much money as possible. Some people believe that the government is far wiser in using the money than others. that is the only possible way to justify this sort of attitude. Its not like the government doesn't get a huge cut. But to justify the government taking 35% of the same pot of money at one level and then wanting it to take 40% again at the second level is frankly sick IMHO.

That you think the government should tax say a million dollars 350K and then the remaining 650K at 40% meaning that of the million earned by the company the government taxes 350K and then 240+K again is disgusting
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You wanna know what is absolutely sick Turtle? Sick to the point of inducing violent vomitting? Discriminatory tax rates which benefit the riches people in our society more than anybody else. And people who defend them out of pure selfish greed because they want what they want and they like it that way and screw anybody else who dare raise the spectre of taxing all money coming into a person pocket as income according to the same rate schedule.

Now that is disgusting.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:
arguing for money you have done nothing to earn or produce is really pathetic
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Somewhere deep inside a little part of you must be aware that you are failing every time you go for that argument...
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:
arguing for money you have done nothing to earn or produce is really pathetic
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Apparently the concept of an American citizen advocating for a national tax policy is foreign to you?
 
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