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Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

from j-mac

Yes, it is true that the ideological sides of any particular argument have widened, and entrenched deeper into their own views without any real willingness to accept the others points of view as being even remotely valid. Do you think that is a problem that is only suffered by your opponents? Or can you step back and possibly look and see that this was possibly intentionally stoked for political purposes on both sides at different times?

The loss of a middle adds to the problem. But to give you a really honest and frank answer that you are not going to like - yes indeedy - I think the lions share of the problem is because the right wing has embraced various beliefs in the way a zealot embraces religion. The right believes what it wants to believe because it is convenient for them to believe it. An example is the truisms they constantly float that small government is good and lower taxes are good and local government is better than national government. There are a bunch of axioms like that that have adopted on a level like religious tenets and they permeate the discussion and poison it.

Progressives like myself do not believe in big government. We simply want government that works.
Progressives like myself do not believe that lower taxes are good are higher taxes are good. We simply want a tax system that works for a sustainable society.
Progressives like myself do not rank any hierarchy of local, state or national government as which is the best and most desirable. We simply want government to work.

So yes - I do think the lions share of the problem is the increasing radicalization of the conservative wing of this nation. I see no corresponding radicalization of the left wing - in fact - most of us on the left complain about the toothless lion of democratic politics.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

from j-mac



The loss of a middle adds to the problem. But to give you a really honest and frank answer that you are not going to like - yes indeedy - I think the lions share of the problem is because the right wing has embraced various beliefs in the way a zealot embraces religion. The right believes what it wants to believe because it is convenient for them to believe it. An example is the truisms they constantly float that small government is good and lower taxes are good and local government is better than national government. There are a bunch of axioms like that that have adopted on a level like religious tenets and they permeate the discussion and poison it.

Progressives like myself do not believe in big government. We simply want government that works.
Progressives like myself do not believe that lower taxes are good are higher taxes are good. We simply want a tax system that works for a sustainable society.
Progressives like myself do not rank any hierarchy of local, state or national government as which is the best and most desirable. We simply want government to work.

So yes - I do think the lions share of the problem is the increasing radicalization of the conservative wing of this nation. I see no corresponding radicalization of the left wing - in fact - most of us on the left complain about the toothless lion of democratic politics.

Yep, there's a problem and it's not my fault. You sound just like your president.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Yep, there's a problem and it's not my fault. You sound just like your president.

By all means please identify that problem.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

They only call it class warfare when we fight back.

T'ats right! Dem libearl fatcats don' pay alot 'n taxes an' shor should be paying mor' like us po' folk.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

The loss of a middle adds to the problem. But to give you a really honest and frank answer that you are not going to like - yes indeedy - I think the lions share of the problem is because the right wing has embraced various beliefs in the way a zealot embraces religion...

The loss of a middle is indeed a problem, and that we have agreement on. But, it is not that I "dislike" your answers, in fact I appreciate when we stop the noise, and have true discussion like this. If you notice, I really try to dial it back and discuss when the opportunity presents, as it does at this moment.

However, you are kind of proving my point in your opening by placing all of the blame on your ideological opponents here. It may be true that some on the right at times tend to go overboard in their arguments, sometimes to the exclusion of considering facts that are not convenient to the argument. But I see that on BOTH sides of the argument at times.

An example is the truisms they constantly float that small government is good and lower taxes are good and local government is better than national government. There are a bunch of axioms like that that have adopted on a level like religious tenets and they permeate the discussion and poison it.

Well, I can understand why you see that, and you should be aware then also that we on the right see the exact same things coming out of the progressive left, so to speak. For example, taxes are too low, Federal government is supreme over localities, (Even though I believe that the power of the Federal Government is derived from the states, not the other way around), Global Warming, Eco-greenism, general nanny statist function that saps the power of the individual are also promoted by progressives like religious dogma, and in many cases they permeate discussion, and destroy it equally.

Progressives like myself do not believe in big government. We simply want government that works.

Maybe that is true for you, and quite possibly you are not a classical progressive either. I don't know, because I don't know you personally. But, from what I see of progressives today, they are exactly opposite of what you are describing.

Progressives like myself do not believe that lower taxes are good and higher taxes are good. We simply want a tax system that works for a sustainable society.

Then how does this work with the sentence that I quoted above? Unless you are saying that in order for "government to work" that it must be involved in nearly every decision that a person contemplates, because people are stupid. Is that it?

Progressives like myself do not rank any hierarchy of local, state or national government as which is the best and most desirable. We simply want government to work.

I don't believe that at all. Largely because I have never seen a progressive that doesn't advocate larger more intrusive big government. We do have historical example of how that large intrusive government control fails. So why keep pushing for it?

So yes - I do think the lions share of the problem is the increasing radicalization of the conservative wing of this nation. I see no corresponding radicalization of the left wing - in fact - most of us on the left complain about the toothless lion of democratic politics.


So then we are back to, it being solely a conservative problem eh? No introspection, no trying to meet half way in the order of truthful self examination? Just back to all a one sided problem? That is why we will continue to have barely coherent discussion through the insulting banter that really does little more than pass time, and in the end regurgitate the respective talking points of either side. And here I thought it was a real inroad, when in fact it was just a long post to say....."It's all their fault"

Thanks.

j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

envy has been with us for decades and there are still failures who blame the rich for their lack of financial success. If you want money, do something valuable that would cause others to give you some. People like me don't exist just to pour money down upon you no matter how much you complain

No one is asking you to. Take your money and leave if you wish to pay a lower effective tax rate on your income then does the middle class. I understand Somalia has the type of tax rates you prefer.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

No one is asking you to. Take your money and leave if you wish to pay a lower effective tax rate on your income then does the middle class. I understand Somalia has the type of tax rates you prefer.


Wow, what a Debbie Wasserman Schultz-esqe type of answer...Just the right amount of arrogance, and snark in order to achieve the precise amount of insult.

Look, who gave you the ability to decide who should stay or go in this country? You own it now?

j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Look, who gave you the ability to decide who should stay or go in this country? You own it now?


My ability is the same as all Americans, the right to vote how we want our country run, that includes tax rates. From all the polls this year, it appears the great majority of Americans have decided that continuing the tax cuts for the rich is of no benefit to the economy or the majority of the people in this country.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

My ability is the same as all Americans, the right to vote how we want our country run, that includes tax rates. From all the polls this year, it appears the great majority of Americans have decided that continuing the tax cuts for the rich is of no benefit to the economy or the majority of the people in this country.


No, that is false..Or at least I don't buy it...Can you show me where 'the great majority" agrees with the premise you are advancing?


j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays



Liberal site and leaning aside, the questions highlighted in these polls do not support your assertion...They are wide ranging enough to encompass hell, even me. But because I would even say that at some point taxation would have to rise in conjunction with entitlement reforms to get ourselves back on track, is in no way the extreme that you are advocating.

j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Wow, what a Debbie Wasserman Schultz-esqe type of answer...Just the right amount of arrogance, and snark in order to achieve the precise amount of insult.

Look, who gave you the ability to decide who should stay or go in this country? You own it now?

j-mac

For the life of me, I don't see how Dems think that woman will attract people to vote for Democrats. She looks like one of those women at a carnival trying to get you to pay a dollar to throw a little plastic ring over a milk bottle so you might win a 10 cent toy.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

No one is asking you to. Take your money and leave if you wish to pay a lower effective tax rate on your income then does the middle class. I understand Somalia has the type of tax rates you prefer.

Other than the warlords and government officials are there actually any rich people in that country? I would think being a regular person in that country would be like leaving a Porsche in a poor neighborhood with no alarm or anti-theft devices.
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

No one is asking you to. Take your money and leave if you wish to pay a lower effective tax rate on your income then does the middle class. I understand
Somalia has the type of tax rates you prefer.

that stupid somalia reference was moronic when it was first unveiled and only rots even more. THe welfare socialists are like ticks who tell the dog to leave if it doesn't like being bitten. FIrst of all that is a stupid suggestion, its people like me who built this country, not the people standing around with their hands out demanding others pay for their existence. Secondly, if we did leave people like you would starve
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

My ability is the same as all Americans, the right to vote how we want our country run, that includes tax rates. From all the polls this year, it appears the great majority of Americans have decided that continuing the tax cuts for the rich is of no benefit to the economy or the majority of the people in this country.

this is another idiotic claim. that most people want others to be taxed more to pay for the stuff they want is neither surprising nor a valid argument. I bet most people would want the rich to pay all their bills for them if they could get away with it.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Since you appear to be criticizing my posts, please provide proof of your charges or have the decency to retract them.

If we have indeed fallen so far down the ideological rabbit hole that now someone wanting a rational discussion of national tax policy is tagged with being FAR LEFT it shows just how hopeless this situation has become.

Q: Why don't you defend the policy instead of making ad hominem attacks on me and others here who want a rational discussion of national tax policy?
A: Defending the tactics of the right by attacking their critics is the favored methodology as opposed to defending a indefensible policy which benefits a relatively small minority.

This thread is not about a national tax policy, as you would pretend in this post, it is about tax policy as it relates to an individual who happens, by no small coincidence, to be a Presidential candidate.

This is yet another example of how the left tries to skew the debate in other self righteous directions and then, when exposed, claim they were unjustifiably wronged.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

from j-mac

However, you are kind of proving my point in your opening by placing all of the blame on your ideological opponents here. It may be true that some on the right at times tend to go overboard in their arguments, sometimes to the exclusion of considering facts that are not convenient to the argument. But I see that on BOTH sides of the argument at times.

There is little dispute that the Republican party has swung far to the right over the last decade - perhaps longer. Democrats, on the other hand, have not swung to the far left as a balance. In fact, the opposite has happened. How many Democrats today stand up for gun control - once a major liberal cause? You cannot even get a resolution introduced after a twenty person massacre these days the pendulum has swung so far to the right.

Once Democrats were strong opposing foreign wars like Viet Nam. Very few today make an issue of it.

Once Democrats vigorously defended organized labor. Even with huge majorities in the Congress in the first two years of Obama they failed to push the check off system that unions wanted.

Democrats have caved on tax increases for the wealthy.

They have caved on popping the cap on Social Security contributions.

Sorry, but the record shows no corresponding radicalization of the left of the Democratic Party - just the opposite in fact.


Well, I can understand why you see that, and you should be aware then also that we on the right see the exact same things coming out of the progressive left, so to speak. For example, taxes are too low, Federal government is supreme over localities, (Even though I believe that the power of the Federal Government is derived from the states, not the other way around), Global Warming, Eco-greenism, general nanny statist function that saps the power of the individual are also promoted by progressives like religious dogma, and in many cases they permeate discussion, and destroy it equally.

We do not accept as a truism that taxes are too low. We look at current levels, compare them to the levels of the last sixty years and make a factual conclusion that they are among the lowest at this time than at any time in the last sixty years for many people. Capital gains included in that low figure. That is not a statement of faith like "low taxes are the best". It is simply a statement of historical fact that is verified by reality.

As a progressive, I do not believe the federal government is supreme. There is a separation of powers and each of the three levels has their domain and proper powers.

I have never known what the nanny state charge means. It is so vague and over the top as to be meaningless.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

dems realize gun control cost them congress in 1994. Believe me, if they thought they could ban guns and not lose offices they would go for it.

the fact remains that the dems-who have as many or more uber wealthy politicians-realize that to win office they have to pander to the poor, the envious and others who are seduced by the claims that the rich don't pay enough taxes. for rich dems, paying more taxes is worth it if they get the wealth and power that comes from holding public office.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

dems realize gun control cost them congress in 1994. Believe me, if they thought they could ban guns and not lose offices they would go for it.

the fact remains that the dems-who have as many or more uber wealthy politicians-realize that to win office they have to pander to the poor, the envious and others who are seduced by the claims that the rich don't pay enough taxes. for rich dems, paying more taxes is worth it if they get the wealth and power that comes from holding public office.

The point seems to be eluding you.

The Republicans have shifted to the right over the past decade or two while the dems have also moved to the right from where they were as evidenced by the several issues I pointed out and nobody took issue with. In fact, Turtle admitted the Dems moved to the center on gun control.

Turtle, please show - FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME IN SEVEN YEARS - with verifiable evidence - proof of your claims of democrats pandering as you constantly allege.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

There is little dispute that the Republican party has swung far to the right over the last decade - perhaps longer.

Maybe in your eyes, and in the eyes of political progressives that would like to see their opposition disappear. Not to me brother.

Democrats, on the other hand, have not swung to the far left as a balance. In fact, the opposite has happened.

How can you say that as liberal progressive demo's wage a virtual war against the very system in this country that made us great?

How many Democrats today stand up for gun control - once a major liberal cause? You cannot even get a resolution introduced after a twenty person massacre these days the pendulum has swung so far to the right.

Maybe they realized that it was a losing stance, or maybe they realize that what comes with their "fundamental change" is the need for self protection. Who knows, but the bigger issue is what they want to destroy in terms of what kind of nation we are.

Once Democrats were strong opposing foreign wars like Viet Nam. Very few today make an issue of it.

Only because it is Obama in office. What gives you the idea that Demo's are against war anyway? Nearly every conflict we have been involved in over the past 60 years has been waged by a demo.

Once Democrats vigorously defended organized labor. Even with huge majorities in the Congress in the first two years of Obama they failed to push the check off system that unions wanted.

No way they could get it through legitimately, so instead they subverted the NLRB and are pushing it through regulation against the will of the people.

Sorry, but the record shows no corresponding radicalization of the left of the Democratic Party - just the opposite in fact.

Please. spare us. Just visit any collage campus these days.

We do not accept as a truism that taxes are too low. We look at current levels, compare them to the levels of the last sixty years and make a factual conclusion that they are among the lowest at this time than at any time in the last sixty years for many people. Capital gains included in that low figure. That is not a statement of faith like "low taxes are the best". It is simply a statement of historical fact that is verified by reality.

So what if they are the lowest in history? If that is even true. But the premise being set up by you, is already that if I don't agree with you then I am not being realistic.

As a progressive, I do not believe the federal government is supreme. There is a separation of powers and each of the three levels has their domain and proper powers.

Give me a break...Were you not recently cheer leading Obama's non recess, recess appointments? That is not respecting anything at all to do with the separation of powers.

I have never known what the nanny state charge means. It is so vague and over the top as to be meaningless.

It's not meaningless. That you don't understand it is clear evidence of the utter dishonesty that is progressivism.


j-mac
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

I see nothing in that post which shows any factual evidence which disproves my two points
1- the GOP has turned to the right over the past two decades
2- the Democrats have turned more to the center over the past decade

You showing that some progressives on college campuses may be leftish does not reflect on the Democrats in power.

The fact is that the Democrats have caved in on taxing the rich.
They have caved in on support for foreign wars which are unnecessary.
They have caved in on the defense budget.
They have caved in on things like the Patriot Act.
They have caved in on gun control.
They have caved in on union rights and the card check system despite having big majorities in both houses.

In each and every case they moved from a progressive position to caving in to the right.

I see you were unable to clarify what that meaningless nanny state nonsense means. Join the crowd.
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

To those who have consistently claimed in this post that their effective tax rate is 15% or even higher, please do the math on your own tax return so you don't continue to look foolish. Here's his tax return: http://www.newt.org/sites/newt.org/files/GingrichIncomeTaxReturn.pdf

Take Line 60 of your own return and divide it by Line 37. Thanks.

Mine's never been above 10.7%.

No, you also need to add in sales taxes, unemployment, disability, FICA, property taxes, vehicle registration taxes, etc. You're just looking only at federal income taxes. This should give you a rough idea of what you pay total:

If you made $12,500 in 2010, you paid: 16.2% total
$25,300: 20.7%
$40,700: 25.1%
$66,300: 28.5%
$100,000: 30%

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

See, Romney doesn't need to calculate any of those other taxes in because at his tier the things like sales, property, FICA, etc, amount to effectively 0% of his income, but at lower incomes they can take quite a big bite out of your paycheck.
 
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So he admits to paying 15% on money he invested that he was already taxed 30% on?

Not sure what you mean. The money he put in to invest he was never taxed on again. The profits off of those investments he was taxed on.
 
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