Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Mitt Romney Deserves to Pay Less Taxes Because He's So Rich

Romney - "What’s the effective rate I’ve been paying? It's probably closer to the 15 percent rate than anything, because my last ten years, I’ve, my income comes overwhelmingly from investments made in the past, rather than ordinary income, rather than earned annual income."

Citizens for Tax Justice estimates his tax rate at around 14 percent. But, hey, that's "closer to the 15 percent rate" than it is to, say, three percent.

As Center for American Progress Director of Fiscal Reform Seth Hanlon has explained, the latest data shows that "many middle-class families paid much more [in taxes] than the 17.5 percent average paid by the very rich." When President Obama suggested the "Buffett rule," aimed at ensuring that millionaires can’t pay lower taxes than middle class families, Romney derided it as "class warfare," and "the wrong way to go."

Mitt Romney Deserves to Pay Less Taxes Because He's So Rich | Indecision Blog | Comedy Central's Indecision | IndecisionForever.com

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

Whether it is "oppressive" or whatnot is a different conversation. I'm saying they benefit from the education financially. It seems like I've documented that clearly, no?

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Yes, you did a great job. They certainly do benefit. But they pay for those benefits. The same way as when you buy something.

These are the effects of transactions and contracts. Trades that are made between adults who deem it a fair deal. The reason you make trades with people is to get money out of the deal, or to give up money to survive or derive convenience or enjoyment. Most trades involve an exchange of money. Some people use that money to make more money. Or they use whatever they're getting in exchange for money to make more money. These are usually considered fair deals made in good faith. So who cares if employers or rich people "benefit?" Of course they benefit. You say they benefit "more" from society in general. No they don't. They just have more. They make more trades, or smarter trades, or whatever. But they don't benefit more from the set-up just because you're envious of the outcome.

My argument is just that they draw benefit from the educations of their employees.

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Your argument was that they benefit more from society in general, and you were using this as an example.

That's clearly true, since they're keeping or using 55% of the productivity of the employees, and education is a huge variable in productivity.

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I think you should go hire a bunch of people. I mean, you get to keep half of what they produce. It's a great deal. You'll "benefit more" from society if you do this. And don't you think, with all the unemployment we have, that they will love you for it?

There is massive expenditure, complexity, risk, and extremely hard work that go into trying to create and sustain a competitive business. Many people fail terribly in this endeavor and never quite reach what they had hoped. Those who make it are fortunate, but you cannot justifiably say they "benefit more" from society in general by virtue of their outcome. They just as easily could have failed. They pay for things as they work their way up. The reason we advance as a species is because of our drive to take risks and hope the risks pay off, and what drive would there be if there was not incremental benefit? There would be none.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Romney is going through the samething that Obama went through but since Romney is a repub? They rightwingers could care less how much he is getting paid and that he is an elitist. As long as it is one of their own? Everything if fine. Hypocrites..

This man is so out of touch with the people it is not even funnny. He thinks $374327 for a couple of speaking engagements is chump change. This dude is out of touch with the REAL workers in this country.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Kali said:

Romney is going through the samething that Obama went through but since Romney is a repub? They rightwingers could care less how much he is getting paid and that he is an elitist. As long as it is one of their own? Everything if fine. Hypocrites..

This man is so out of touch with the people it is not even funnny. He thinks $374327 for a couple of speaking engagements is chump change. This dude is out of touch with the REAL workers in this country.

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Ya think?

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

AdamT said:

Oh boy, TD is going to be so envious.

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The envy is all on your side

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

I did miss that he said "income taxes", but it works out the same. The other taxes don't really apply to him percentage wise.



Taxes aren't like prices for buying things. When you're buying things, for every $1 you spend you get $1 back. With taxes different people benefit from the stuff the taxes pay for to different degrees. A wealthy person, by definition, is drawing far more benefit from the society that the taxes maintain. For example, where a middle class person only benefits from their own education, a wealthy person benefits from the educations of all the people that work at companies they own stock in. Wealthy people benefit far more from having a stable economy, from having a strong consumer base, from having a stable currency, from law and order, from the infrastructure, etc. So, to translate that into the "buying things" metaphor, they're getting a lot more things, so they have to pay a lot more, where a working person is getting less things and so they pay less.

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complete speculative crap. Hatuey made a rather well stated argument that rich people benefit society more by their actions but your attempt to justify higher taxes based on usage fails since you would have to argue that ten million paying no taxes use less than One billionaire and guess what, and -no one would make such a claim honestly

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

As Mitt Romney has admitted, and as the fact checking organizations have confirmed, those that get most of their income from investments, like Romney, pay a lower effective tax rate because the tax rate on capital gains is 15%.

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and your point is? that is true with any one who has mainly investment income (dividends having already been taxed once)

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

and your point is? that is true with any one who has mainly investment income (dividends having already been taxed once)

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Investment is BAD!! Spend it all, give it away to fools and satisfy immediate gratification! There is no tomorrow!

People and thus government having a positive balance? What kind of madness doest thou advocate?

Supporters argue that a consumption tax, such as the FairTax, would have a positive impact on savings and investment (not taxed), ease of tax compliance, increased economic growth, incentives for international business to locate in the U.S., and increased U.S. international competitiveness (border tax adjustment in global trade).[3][4]

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Predicted effects of the FairTax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

From other investors most likely so they don't have to take any risk themselves, unlike me who used my own money to start my business.

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So all of the "rich" got their capital from other investors and took no risk and you used all of your own capital to start your business? How do you suppose they were able to raise money in the first place?

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TNAR said:

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal; tax evasion is illegal.

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Yes, that's true. My point is that lowering one's tax bill shouldn't be the only consideration. If you invest $10,000 and get a 10% return, tax free, you've made made $1,000. If you invest the same $10k and get a 30% return, subject to LTCG, you've made $2,550, or about 250% more -- after taxes. Did the second investment result in a higher tax rate? Of course. Was it the better investment? Absolutely.

The sort of encapsulates the silly complaint that the wealthy are paying so much more in taxes than they used to. They're paying so much more because they're so much richer relative to everyone else -- not because they're paying a higher tax rate. In fact they are paying a lower effective tax rate.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

ecofarm said:

Investment is BAD!! Spend it all, give it away to fools and satisfy immediate gratification! There is no tomorrow!

People and thus government having a positive balance? What kind of madness doest thou advocate?

Predicted effects of the FairTax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Balance is certainly the key. It's not good if people get too leveraged, but it's also not good if people are too conservative in their spending. The Japanese could tell you something about that.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

and your point is? that is true with any one who has mainly investment income (dividends having already been taxed once)

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Exactly, those who derive most of their income from investments pay a lower tax rate, and voters are aware the double taxation claim is a myth:

The Myth of Double-Taxed Investment Income

The Wall Street Journal starts with the following complaint about Buffett’s argument that his capital gains and dividend income is insufficiently taxed:

“What he doesn't say is that much of his income was already taxed once as corporate income, which is assessed at a 35% rate (less deductions). The 15% levy on capital gains and dividends to individuals is thus a double tax that takes the overall tax rate on that corporate income closer to 45%.”

Anti-tax ideologues often claim that corporate profits are taxed twice, once under the corporate income tax and then again under the personal income tax when the shareholders receive them in the form of capital gains and dividends. There are several fatal flaws in this argument:

First, many corporate profits are not taxed, as GE, Verizon, Boeing, and many other corporations have demonstrated.

Second, two thirds of those dividends are actually paid to tax-exempt entities like pension funds or university endowments.

Third, a capital gain from selling a corporate stock is not necessarily a form of corporate profit. If stock value rises based on some expectation of a future increase in profits (which a drug company might enjoy after the FDA approves a new product, for example) that does not have anything to do with profits that the company has already received or paid taxes on.

In any case, the capital gains earned outside of tax-exempt plans are not taxed until shareholders sell their corporate stock at a profit, meaning those gains can be deferred indefinitely. Even when shareholders do report capital gains they often offset them with capital losses.

If one applies the logic of the “double-tax” argument more broadly, one would have to conclude that the wage and salary income of ordinary Americans is subject to several forms of taxes that wealthy investors don’t worry much about. For most Americans, income consists entirely of wages and all of it is subject to Social Security taxes and much or most of it is subject to the federal income tax. Then when people spend their income, a great deal of their purchases are subject to sales taxes.

Somehow the Wall Street Journal and its devotees only express concern over taxing income multiple times when wealthy investors are involved."
Warren Buffett Is Right, the Wall Street Journal Is Wrong

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Is the whining about LTCG/Dividend rates based on

1) a sound economic argument that those forms of income should be subjected to the same tax rates as earned income

2) envy or spite over the fact that the "wealthy" tend to have a higher proportion of their income from such sources

reading this and other threads, the answer is obviously #2

at best, the tax hikers argue that the earned income tax structure is "proper" and base their arguments on that assumption without any analysis

the other tax hikers merely whine about the rich

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Rhapsody1447 said:

So all of the "rich" got their capital from other investors and took no risk and you used all of your own capital to start your business? How do you suppose they were able to raise money in the first place?

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Most of the biggest investors invest other peoples money. As far as Romney specifically:

"One of the reasons Romney is able to drive his tax rate down so low is that he is still earning money from his private equity firm, Bain Capital, that is likely subject to a pernicious tax loophole. This loophole lets wealthy money mangers like Romney pay the capital gains tax rate on profits they make investing other people’s money, turning the justification for having a lower capital gains tax rate completely on its head."

Romney Admits His Tax Rate Is About 15 Percent, Lower Than Many Middle Class Families | ThinkProgress

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

Is the whining about LTCG/Dividend rates based on

1) a sound economic argument that those forms of income should be subjected to the same tax rates as earned income

2) envy or spite over the fact that the "wealthy" tend to have a higher proportion of their income from such sources

reading this and other threads, the answer is obviously #2

at best, the tax hikers argue that the earned income tax structure is "proper" and base their arguments on that assumption without any analysis

the other tax hikers merely whine about the rich

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It is quite obvious that the answer if #1. #2 is what you stepped into and cannot shake it off Turtle. :mrgreen: We know you believe it but you have NEVER made a real case as to why the rte for long term capital gains should be well less than half for what it is for the same income. You have NEVER done this.

Again, lets take two people
1) Ron Jones who is a record producer whose annual salary is $800,000.00. He pays 35%. His tax bill - assuming no deductions - is $280,000.00.
2) Hank Tonkin who is an investor and who make $800,000.00 last year in long term capital gains. He pays 15%. His tax bill - assuming no dedictions - is $120,000.00.

Now justify that please? Tell us what a nation of 311 million people, should have such a discriminatory preference as part of our nation tax policy and law.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Catawba said:

Most of the biggest investors invest other peoples money. As far as Romney specifically:

"One of the reasons Romney is able to drive his tax rate down so low is that he is still earning money from his private equity firm, Bain Capital, that is likely subject to a pernicious tax loophole. This loophole lets wealthy money mangers like Romney pay the capital gains tax rate on profits they make investing other people’s money, turning the justification for having a lower capital gains tax rate completely on its head."

Romney Admits His Tax Rate Is About 15 Percent, Lower Than Many Middle Class Families | ThinkProgress

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Yes, this applies to professional fund managers, especially in the hedge fund and private equity business who typically charge a 20% performance fee. My question was regarding all wealthy people who make money on their investments, not just professional investors. Where do rich people who pay a 15% capital gains tax get their capital?

On a side note, who do you anticipate the biggest investors in those funds are? Why ignore the recipients of the large share (80%) of profits to focus on the one's who generated it?

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:

It is quite obvious that the answer if #1. #2 is what you stepped into and cannot shake it off Turtle. :mrgreen: We know you believe it but you have NEVER made a real case as to why the rte for long term capital gains should be well less than half for what it is for the same income. You have NEVER done this.

Again, lets take two people
1) Ron Jones who is a record producer whose annual salary is $800,000.00. He pays 35%. His tax bill - assuming no deductions - is $280,000.00.
2) Hank Tonkin who is an investor and who make $800,000.00 last year in long term capital gains. He pays 15%. His tax bill - assuming no dedictions - is $120,000.00.

Now justify that please? Tell us what a nation of 311 million people, should have such a discriminatory preference as part of our nation tax policy and law.

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so I am waiting for you to rebut the reasons why the GOVERNMENT's reasons for different treatment is wrong

and you are not against DISCRIMINATORY TAXATION-you like the progressive system when it means the rich pay more of each dollar in income taxes

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

so I am waiting for you to rebut the reasons why the GOVERNMENT's reasons for different treatment is wrong

and you are not against DISCRIMINATORY TAXATION-you like the progressive system when it means the rich pay more of each dollar in income taxes

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Could you link to your argument please? I am not aware of it.

How many times have I and others explained to you the difference between giving preferenital discriminatory rates to SOURCES of income and the difference between progressive tax rates? You keep confusing apples with cinder blocks and just cannot seem to figure out why you keep chipping your teeth on that hard grey pie filling.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:

Could you link to your argument please? I am not aware of it.

How many times have I and others explained to you the difference between giving preferenital discriminatory rates to SOURCES of income and the difference between progressive tax rates? You keep confusing apples with cinder blocks and just cannot seem to figure out why you keep chipping your teeth on that hard grey pie filling.

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SO YOU are in favor of some types of discrimination that are applied by the government and against others.

You just believe that whatever causes the rich to pay more and more is good

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:

Just because an employer pays for something doesn't mean they don't benefit from it. The median productivity of an American worker is $97k/year, but the median compensation is only $44k/year. So, for every year an employee works, on average, the employee gets $44k of the value they create, the employer gets $53k of the value they create.

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Sorry if I missed it, but do you have a link for this? In my experience, revenue per person, minus per person compensation, does not equal "what the employer gets". There are more expenses than just payroll, so why do you think the company gets the remainder? It all depends on the company margins. Most industries see something more around 15% of revenue. Markets drive this by the way, and there is *no better system* to drive that.

People who bust ass and drive the economy, get paid a lot, that's as it should be. Even high pay is not enough to get most people to try hard, the vast majority of people prefer a far more passive, less risky, and lower income career.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:

SO YOU are in favor of some types of discrimination that are applied by the government and against others.

You just believe that whatever causes the rich to pay more and more is good

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You challenged me to refute your argument. Fine. Please link to it.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:

Again, lets take two people
1) Ron Jones who is a record producer whose annual salary is $800,000.00. He pays 35%. His tax bill - assuming no deductions - is $280,000.00.
2) Hank Tonkin who is an investor and who make $800,000.00 last year in long term capital gains. He pays 15%. His tax bill - assuming no dedictions - is $120,000.00.

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That $800,000 would have to be from investments from prior years in order to qualify for the LTCG. Let me ask a clarifying question, with what money did he earn the $800,000 with?

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Rhapsody1447 said:

Yes, this applies to professional fund managers, especially in the hedge fund and private equity business who typically charge a 20% performance fee. My question was regarding all wealthy people who make money on their investments, not just professional investors. Where do rich people who pay a 15% capital gains tax get their capital?

On a side note, who do you anticipate the biggest investors in those funds are? Why ignore the recipients of the large share (80%) of profits to focus on the one's who generated it?

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This is only an issue for those who make most of their income from investments as Romney did. They are the ones that enjoy a lower tax rate than the middle class.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Rhapsody1447 said:

That $800,000 would have to be from investments from prior years in order to qualify for the LTCG. Let me ask a clarifying question, with what money did he earn the $800,000 with?

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why does that matter? he's not being taxed twice on it.

Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Rhapsody1447 said:

That $800,000 would have to be from investments from prior years in order to qualify for the LTCG. Let me ask a clarifying question, with what money did he earn the $800,000 with?

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Money he grew on the money tree in the back yard. Who cares? Money is money - income is income. I don't care where it comes from and neither should the government.