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PetroChina buys entire Alberta oilsands project

j-mac said:
Karl said:
j-mac said:
Karl said:
Dpetty said:
[...] once you have charged your vehicle, those batteries are going to need to recharge before it can provide another charge. And thats gonna take a while. [...]
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Again, the insistence on stating the obvious puzzles me. In a typical solar system, the batteries are charged during the day, and are discharged ('used') during the evening and night. [...]
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How many homes today are using energy solely supplied through solar systems?
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Who has claimed that they are?
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Well, you did sir. By implying that the volt could be charged through a solar source, knowing that the owners of these cars primarily charge them by plugging them in at the end of their day into their home energy.
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Come on, quit wasting everyone's time -- including mine -- with such a stupid strawman.
 
AdamT said:
Yeah, those clever Chinese are lending us money at near zero percent interest. Bastards.
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Actually, they re not. They have REDUCED the amount of US debt they own in the last six months. What they are doing is as we see here. Buying resources.

However, if you want to understand who is "loaning us money at near zero percent interest", you need look no further than the NEW #1 holder of US debt. Care to take a WAG ?
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The Federal Reserve ................... say Inflation anyone ?
 
j-mac said:
Karl said:
It is not a hypothesis. It is a path to reducing oil consumption.
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In other words an unproven Hypothesis.
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I can't understand the problem -- really. You need proof that driving a Chevy Volt, within local battery range, and charging it at night via stored solar energy (which has been my position in multiple posts) would reduce oil consumption?

You can't logically deduce that on your own?

Really?

j-mac said:
So, anyone that doesn't buy into your line of bull, is ignorant, and complacent eh? Nice.
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I'll let the posts speak for themselves.
 
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Karl said:
[...] The lack of solar production at the residential unit level is a national failure, aided and abetted by the oil industry and their deluded, shallow minded, and often greedy followers. [...]
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j-mac said:
[...] You won't address the fact that hybrid plug ins are charged using coal fired electricity in this country, which makes these cars as much, if not bigger polluters than my F-150. [...]
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It looks to me like I just did -- before your attempt to, once again, derail the thread.

Now if you'd like to concede failure on the oil argument, we can move onto something else, although I'd suggest a separate thread. But simply trying to deflect from your loss in order to cover it up is not going to work.

However, since it has seemed to be needed at other points in this thread, I will state the obvious -- until electric vehicles can be powered by clean sources of energy, the total 'green' benefit will not be realized. If someone wants to use that as an argument to not even go down the renewable path, then go right ahead and enjoy the failure that argument will produce. In the meantime, regardless of the source of the electricity used to recharge the vehicle, it will most definitely reduce oil consumption, which is the subject of the thread.
 
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Karl said:
I can't understand the problem -- really. You need proof that driving a Chevy Volt, within local battery range, and charging it at night via stored solar energy (which has been my position in multiple posts) would reduce oil consumption?

You can't logically deduce that out on your own?

Really?


I'll let the posts speak for themselves.
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It is not a simple issue of "reducing oil consumption". It also reduces our standard of living, as that electricity costs you more, either directly if you pay the actual cost of its production, or indirectly, if government subsidized.

All this nonsensical talk of getting out ahead on green-energy production is near the stuff of stupidity. All it will do at this time is get us behind further on our comparative disadvantage. China, and other nations against which we must compete economically, are not going to compel themselves to switch to green energy before it is time. We have already seen Spain as a massive fail in ts endeavor, and yet folks still argue non-existent merits as if we are blind to the advantage-disadvantage examples currently available to us.

Green Energy is a farce at this time. It will be a fool's gold for at least the next 50 years, if not substantially longer.
 
Karl said:
See, you had a chance to clear everything up and perhaps -- perhaps -- make a point. Yet you wasted that chance.
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In that case, you've wasted lot's of chances in this thread.
 
Karl said:
I can't understand the problem -- really. You need proof that driving a Chevy Volt, within local battery range, and charging it at night via stored solar energy (which has been my position in multiple posts) would reduce oil consumption?
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No, I think you could do it. But, there are some factors that mitigate this scenario.

1. The cost of installing solar in a home, although getting cheaper due to tax payer subsidies, is still prohibitive in relative output potential.

2. Upkeep and maintenance issues are far greater for a public that has less, and less time, nor ability to maintain these systems. So ongoing cost is higher than traditional energy.

3. Then there is the issue that warranted or not, recent fire hazards, coupled with the cost of these cars are still out of reach of the masses.

I find it amusing that liberal progressives will attack the oil, and energy sectors screaming about subsidies going to these entities, but at the same time turn your blind eye to the massive subsidies that prop up this green push to the point that without it, the green sector would collapse.

You can't logically deduce that out on your own?

Really?
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Why not? Are you really so arrogant that you think that only those that agree with you have a corner on logic?

I'll let the posts speak for themselves.
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I accept your concession.

j-mac
 
Karl said:
It looks to me like I just did -- before your attempt to, once again, derail the thread.

Now if you'd like to concede failure on the oil argument, we can move onto something else, although I'd suggest a separate thread. But simply trying to deflect from your loss in order to cover it up is not going to work.

However, since it has seemed to be needed at other points in this thread, I will state the obvious -- until electric vehicles can be powered by clean sources of energy, the total 'green' benefit will not be realized. If someone wants to use that as an argument to not even go down the renewable path, then go right ahead and enjoy the failure that argument will produce. In the meantime, regardless of the source of the electricity used to recharge the vehicle, it will most definitely reduce oil consumption, which is the subject of the thread.
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I think the key word here is reduce. It will not eliminate our dependancy on oil. The Volt still has a gas engine, it still has moving parts that require lubrication. Be as green as you want, but we are not even close to ending our dependancy on oil. Maybe lessening our consumption but thats only a drop in the bucket to the slew of things we use oil for. think of the number of things that are made out of petroleum products! The plastic that makes up a good portion of that volt is made from.... (drum rollll) pretoleum!
 
j-mac said:
No, I think you could do it. But, there are some factors that mitigate this scenario.

1. The cost of installing solar in a home, although getting cheaper due to tax payer subsidies, is still prohibitive in relative output potential. [...]
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If you put a pencil to it, you'll find that the amortization period is about 10 years (accumulated savings in electricity costs equal original cost of installation).

Of course, at that time a new battery bank will likely be needed, but that is merely a fraction of the original installation cost. 10 years going forward, the homeowner will actually save money. Not to mention the benefits in the first 10 years of reducing fossil fuel consumption as well as reducing load on the grid and related infrastructure.
 
Karl said:
You didn't understand anything I posted previously, did you? A 5.5kW solar system, including two dozen 230 watt panels and a 6kW inverter, will set you back $12K (plus batteries).
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Plus mounting racks @ $2,000
Plus installation @ $5,000.
Plus maintenance
Plus higher homeowner's insurance premiums
Plus the high cost of battery disposal
 
Karl said:
What is the point of a stupid question? If it is supposed to make me look stupid, then may I suggest contemplating the possibility of a self-inflicted wound?
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Because if your home is drawing electricity during the day when your say your batteries are charging that is going to decrease its charge rate. Unless this system of yours is strictly for your vehicle...

A 5.5kW solar system, including two dozen 230 watt panels and a 6kW inverter, will set you back $12K (plus batteries). That is a moderate size solar system, which will provide peak power of 240 volts at 22 amps. This is equivalent to 120 volts at 44 amps, or a peak battery charging current of 392 amps at 14 volts DC -- sufficient to fully charge 46 of your 100 amp-hour batteries in a six hour period-
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There are a few things here i have to address... First of all your saying this system will cost 12k PLUS BATTERIES. The following is a link i found to a 100 amp solar battery.
Intermec S07-101067 100 Amp Hour Replacement Batte Ry,replace
Just one i found real quick using google search. There are cheaper ones, and there are more expensive ones but generally speaking with batteries, you get what you pay for.

1 battery = $596
46 batteries = $27416
Not counting the cables needed to wire them together that is a total of aproximatly $39,416 plus the cost of a chevy volt which starts in the neighborhood of $31,000, thats an initial minimum investment of
over $70,000. I dont know many people that have that kind of money to invest in a system that will do nothing more than Put a 35 mile leash around their neck.

In fact, with that system you could charge three Chevy Volts every night (assuming six hours of sun every day in between, and assuming that you used the solar battery reserve for no other energy needs).
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Do me a favor and look at how many days last year had zero cloud coverage. Then go back to my initail comment, i never said this couldnt be dont, i said it wasnt effective. Its not time effective, and its deffinatly not fiscally effective. But if you have 70k lying around with nothing to do, go nuts.
 
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j-mac said:
[...] 2. Upkeep and maintenance issues are far greater for a public that has less, and less time, nor ability to maintain these systems. So ongoing cost is higher than traditional energy.

3. Then there is the issue that warranted or not, recent fire hazards, coupled with the cost of these cars are still out of reach of the masses. [...]
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Those issues are, for the most part, imaginary or the result of tabloid journalism. To claim that a $40,000 car is out of the reach of the masses is somewhat laughable.
 
Karl said:
If you put a pencil to it, you'll find that the amortization period is about 10 years (accumulated savings in electricity costs equal original cost of installation).

Of course, at that time a new battery bank will likely be needed, but that is merely a fraction of the original installation cost. 10 years going forward, the homeowner will actually save money. Not to mention the benefits in the first 10 years of reducing fossil fuel consumption as well as reducing load on the grid and related infrastructure.
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10 years is a long time to wait for any proposed real savings vs. the immediate output of real cash up front. Considering that most people in America don't have $5K to $10K cash just sitting around.

j-mac
 
Karl said:
To claim that a $40,000 car is out of the reach of the masses is somewhat laughable.
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I consider myself to be comfortably within the middle class catagory, yet i have never owned a car even remotely close to $40,000. Any investment advisor would tell you that is a bad purchase for anybody still making house payments. 40k is not little amount of money.
 
Dpetty said:
There are a few things here i have to address... [1] First of all your saying this system will cost 12k PLUS BATTERIES. [2] The following is a link i found to a 100 amp solar battery.
Intermec S07-101067 100 Amp Hour Replacement Batte Ry,replace
Just one i found real quick using google search. There are cheaper ones, and there are more expensive ones but generally speaking with batteries, you get what you pay for.

1 battery = $596
46 batteries = $27416
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1. I'm not saying it costs $12K plus batteries, the people who sell it are selling it for $12K not including batteries. So, you have correctly restated the facts of the matter. For whatever reason.

2. Your battery is listed as some type of computer battery. 100 AH AGM deep cycle lead-acid batteries, good ones, can be bought for about $190 each if you shop around (I've bought several -- here is an offbrand (which is not what I have) -- 12v 100ah TD100-12***Tempest Deep Cycle AGM, Valve Regulated, Maintenance Free, Sealed Lead Acid Rechargeable Battery $185.00).

For the purposes of my example, which if you recall would recharge three Chevy Volts on a good night, that would be 46 x 190 = $8,740 which would raise the total cost of the solar system to some $20K, which is about right for a system of that size and capacity (Chevy Volt charging aside, it should be able to pretty much power the average home almost completely off the grid, except perhaps for summertime air conditioning (hopefully no one envisioning an energy efficient home is using electricity for heat in the winter)).

However, on a battery bank of this size one would probably want to go to forklift batteries (bigger, so there are fewer... plus they last 2-3 times longer). I don't have any prices handy on them, but it is somewhat irrelevant, since the purpose of the solar system is not to simply charge the Chevy Volt, but to power the home except for peak electricity use. Charging the Volt would be an ancillary benefit, assuming the solar system has sufficient capacity to do so (and the one I described would, in most case, have that additional capacity and likely more).

Dpetty said:
Not counting the cables needed to wire them together that is a total of aproximatly $39,416 plus the cost of a chevy volt which starts in the neighborhood of $31,000, thats an initial minimum investment of over $70,000. I dont know many people that have that kind of money to invest in a system that will do nothing more than Put a 35 mile leash around their neck.
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You see, that's where the logic of your argument breaks down:
1. You assume that people cannot afford a car. Interesting assumption.
2. You assume the solar system is only for the car. If Americans were concerned about the future of their country and their grandchildren (as the right so piously pontificates), they would already have a solar system -- regardless of the car. But since a sizable solar system is indeed expensive ($20K in my example, perhaps a bit more for professional installation), it would be in the national interest to provide some time of low interest loan program where people could retrofit a system (since they will be paying much less for electricity, they could use some or all of that savings to pay on the loan), as well as urge installation of such systems at the time of initial construction (wherein the cost is simply rolled into the mortgage).

So, the concept of a battery car recharged at night with a home solar installation is impractical because
a) people can't afford to buy cars (or at least not a $40K car),
b) the concept of spending $20K on a home remodeling project is rarely put into action, or monetarily impossible or difficult, and
c) some days the sun doesn't shine.
Not a sound argument IMHO. But then, I've never been one to give up easily.
 
Karl said:
If you put a pencil to it, you'll find that the amortization period is about 10 years (accumulated savings in electricity costs equal original cost of installation).

Of course, at that time a new battery bank will likely be needed, but that is merely a fraction of the original installation cost. 10 years going forward, the homeowner will actually save money. Not to mention the benefits in the first 10 years of reducing fossil fuel consumption as well as reducing load on the grid and related infrastructure.
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Not to throw a wrench in your claims here, but Batteries are actualy a very major investment. most deep cycle solar batteries, depending on quality, and how often you cycle the charge, are good for 4 to 8 years. As often as your talking about charging your volt, which would take a good amount of your banks juice, i would imagine your looking at the shorter end of that estimate. By your amortization schedule you wouldnt even have the system paid for before needing to replace the most expensive part of it. And the most non earth friendly part!
 
Dpetty said:
I consider myself to be comfortably within the middle class catagory, yet i have never owned a car even remotely close to $40,000. Any investment advisor would tell you that is a bad purchase for anybody still making house payments. 40k is not little amount of money.
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The purchase of a depreciating asset is more complicated than the kitchen table advice you may hear on Dave Ramsey's radio show.
 
j-mac said:
10 years is a long time to wait for any proposed real savings vs. the immediate output of real cash up front. [...]
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I was going to mention that long term thinking is usually needed to achieve significant goals, especially when confronted with entrenched thought and customs, but thought it obvious.

Again, I erred.
 
Dpetty said:
Not to throw a wrench in your claims here, but Batteries are actualy a very major investment. most deep cycle solar batteries, depending on quality, and how often you cycle the charge, are good for 4 to 8 years. As often as your talking about charging your volt, which would take a good amount of your banks juice, i would imagine your looking at the shorter end of that estimate. [...]
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That would be a reasonable analysis if one were using typical 'truck' AGM batteries. Fork lift batteries seem to live in the 10-15 year range, but at this level of detail we are merely quibbling. Solar is not necessarily going to be any cheaper than electricity, it's simply going to eliminate a sizeable need for it to be generated at remote sites and transmitted over long distances.

Over 10 years you may pay $24,000 in electric bills. If you instead pay $24,000 for a solar system over a period of 10 years, the net is the same -- except you have eliminated the fossil fuel consumption of the former, not to mention the associated pollution (claims that pollution from batteries would be just as bad is, quite simply, ludicrous).

Another thing you have eliminated is the financial market's ability to manipulate and thereby profit from energy (think Enron), which is why there is so much time, money, and effort being expending to maintain the shaky status quo.
 
Karl said:
1. I'm not saying it costs $12K plus batteries, the people who sell it are selling it for $12K not including batteries.
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Juvenile... Will you send me the link to the kit your talking about?

Your battery is listed as some type of computer battery. 100 AH AGM deep cycle lead-acid batteries, good ones, can be bought for about $190 each if you shop around
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That link is the same website with the same picture and is listed for the same uses. the difference is the one you listed states that if its used for deep cycle applications the warranty drops from 2 years, to 1 year... i wonder why that is...

For the purposes of my example, which if you recall would recharge three Chevy Volts on a good night, that would be 46 x 190 = $8,740 which would raise the total cost of the solar system to some $20K, which is about right for a system of that size and capacity.
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Again, you spend less at the begining to buy inferior parts, you will be spending more in the long run which just strengthens my position even more.

However, on a battery bank of this size one would probably want to go to forklift batteries (bigger, so there are fewer... plus they last 2-3 times longer). I don't have any prices handy on them, but it is somewhat irrelevant, since the purpose of the solar system is not to simply charge the Chevy Volt, but to power the home except for peak electricity use. Charging the Volt would be an ancillary benefit, assuming the solar system has sufficient capacity to do so (and the one I described would, in most case, have that additional capacity and likely more).
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Forklift batteries? I didnt have any trouble finding them online and they START at about $1,200 and go up to $9,000 EACH!
Battery Price List - New Industrial Batteries, for forklift & solar

Our conversation began as simply a system used for charging your Volt, you said youself during the day there would be no electricity usage. Dont start changing the boundries of our discussion.


You assume that people cannot afford a car. Interesting assumption.
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I dont think i said that... $30,000 to $40,000 for a car is a lot of money and i personally would never pay that amount for a car capable of going 35 miles at a stretch. Whether i was charging it on the grid or off.
 
Karl said:
You see, that's where the logic of your argument breaks down:
1. You assume that people cannot afford a car. Interesting assumption.
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You assume that people are that irresponsible with their money? Let me give you some particulars....Between my beautiful wife and myself we are $70K range of income, with a average mortgage. I own a 14 year old f-150, paid for, and will run til the wheels fall off it. And we bought a Fusion for my wife two years ago that cost us about $24K...I think that is about average as to what most people do in their budgets...I wouldn't be caught dead in some rollerskate for $40K....

j-mac
 
Karl said:
That would be a reasonable analysis if one were using typical 'truck' AGM batteries. Fork lift batteries seem to live in the 10-15 year range, but at this level of detail we are merely quibbling. Solar is not necessarily going to be any cheaper than electricity, it's simply going to eliminate a sizeable need for it to be generated at remote sites and transmitted over long distances.

Over 10 years you may pay $24,000 in electric bills. If you instead pay $24,000 for a solar system over a period of 10 years, the net is the same -- except you have eliminated the fossil fuel consumption of the former, not to mention the associated pollution (claims that pollution from batteries would be just as bad is, quite simply, ludicrous).

Another thing you have eliminated is the financial market's ability to manipulate and thereby profit from energy (think Enron), which is why there is so much time, money, and effort being expending to maintain the shaky status quo.
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You dont understand, im not saying solar tech is not a valuable resource. I have said that many times. If every home could have their roof covered in solar panels that would be awesome. Dont even get me started on what i think about the antiquated power grid in this country. I think we should all be working on making our home energy independent. That is not the issue. What i said was that with todays level of technology, using solar power to charge an electric vehicle is not very cost effective or practical. i didnt say it wasnt possible. As far as the pollution hazard that the batteries represent, it may or may not be just as bad, but you have refused to even acknowledge it at all.
 
If the average user consumes $2000 a year in gasoline then it would cost $375 for the equivalent in electricity alone. That's a savings of $1625 per year in fuel without the need for building anymore new power plants, not including any price adjustments of future fuel cost increases. That would replace 400 million gallons of gasoline consumed per day in the US alone. That's a gross retail sales of $200 billion per year back in peoples pockets. Once they bring the cost range of electric vehicles within the 20k mark we should see an exodus into that market. They're quicker, quieter, cleaner, more reliable and less maintenance. And the battery conundrum will be easily solved by technology soon. There really isn't a choice and the old dinosaurs have outlived their use. That's us...lol
 
Dpetty said:
[...] Our conversation began as simply a system used for charging your Volt, you said youself during the day there would be no electricity usage. Dont start changing the boundries of our discussion.
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No, our conversation began with me making a simple, factual statement, followed by your really bizarre reply that was, for the most part, totally out of touch with facts and reality, bringing us to this point where you have attributed statements to me that I have not made.

Dpetty said:
Karl said:
The average electric commuter vehicle (Chevy Volt, for one example) could be completely powered by a home solar station. There is no need for anyone who drives less than 20 miles per day to ever use another drop of gasoline on the highway ever again. Right now. Today. Tell our children. . . .
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Do you have any idea how long it would take for a home solar station to fully charge an electric vehicle??

First of all, solar power is extremely ineffecient. It has TONS of potential, but with todays technology, it is the most expensive form of energy per watt. It is very expensive to buy and install, and represents a huge investment that will be obsolete within a few years.

The shortcomings of solar power notwithstanding, it would take a full day of constant sunshine, meaning no cloud coverage and direct sunlight, to get a single charge. If you never had to go more than a short distance from your home, then that would work just fine, but if thats the case you really have no reason to spend $40 to $60,000 on the car and charging system in the first place. But a scooter or something.
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