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Cost of High School Dropouts Draining US Taxpayer

donsutherland1 said:
No such mandates should be given. The proper role for policy would be to maximize opportunities and incentives for students to attend and complete college while reducing incentives for alternatives. For example, the formula for financial aid for students who choose to attend a four-year college could be more generous than any assistance for non-college alternatives. Part of the evaluation of secondary school systems could be based not just on the percentage of students who go on to college, but also the percentages who complete their college education in 4 and 6 years benchmarked against peer schools (similar socioeconomic and demographic characteristics, etc.).

The former would be a federal approach. The latter would be more of a state-based approach. Those are just two examples and they fall far short of the broad range of reforms that could be introduced with the overall goal of increasing college attendance and timely attainment of a college degree.
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If everyone has a college degree, then what's the point?

Reminds me of some good graffiti

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Aunt Spiker said:
They're not talking about college goers - pass or fail. They're talking about teens who drop out of high school and who don't usually go onto college.

I think it's the other way aorund though: I think the dropping out is reflective of their choices and values in life already - not for everyone - but for many. If they drop out it's because their life was already unraveling. The article suggests that they drop out: and then their life falls apart because of that - which is wrong.

Drop out rates are alos highly reflective of the age-disparity. . . Once you're age 18 (and usually this is the age for students to be seniors) the sense of 'individual adult' kicks in and many immediately jump ship and try to be independent because - legally - they can. Legally - their parents can't compell them and, being parents, make little effort to lay down their own parental law.

So - Instead of stitching this together with college statistics. . .this should be stitched together with trying to figure out ways of circumventing the reasons why students drop out and trying to shorten the amount of time you're expected to spend in school is definitely worth looking into.
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Good points. More alternatives that are not on a college track would be helpful. Cut out the fluff and educate some of the kids in a way they can keep up, stay interested, and learn real world skills. Maybe if some of these kids weren't so bored or out of place they might stick with it.
 
jambalaya said:
Good points. More alternatives that are not on a college track would be helpful. Cut out the fluff and educate some of the kids in a way they can keep up, stay interested, and learn real world skills. Maybe if some of these kids weren't so bored or out of place they might stick with it.
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I have stated many years, as far back as I can remember that the solution to education lies in the minds of those being educated. Aptitude testing is a worth while form of understanding where children excel, and where they do not. Gauging interest levels is also appropriate. As kids we seem to do well, or best in the classes we like, and mediocre in classes we do not like. Our failures in those unliked classes are not necessarily reflective of our intellectual capacity, but almost exclusively of our willingness to like that which we do not like. So, as parents we force our kids to eat peas when they tell us they don't like the tase. And what does that accomplish for us in the end? Absolutley nothing, when all that needed to be done was instead of peas we feed them corn.. Catch my drift?

Want to fix education in this country.. Start by testing kids for their aptitude, and keep testing them. Educate them on what they are interested in.. The one size fits all mentality that is our education system is woefully misguided. Teach them to read and to write, and to make calculations. After that, lets really make an effort to try and understand what it is they are most likely to excel at.

You can take the 1000's, millions of papers written by blow hards, and upitty types on the correct way to educate, and make a fire with it. Wasted space if you ask me. The solution is simple, but no one is listening!


Tim-
 
A lot of people drop out because the schooling environment is not dynamic enough to keep many people interested.
There are lots of classes that are a waste of time and effort, the same goes for college.
 
Samhain said:
Obviously we need to mandate that people attend college then.
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Who said anything about making it mandatory?

Harry Guerrilla said:
A lot of people drop out because the schooling environment is not dynamic enough to keep many people interested.
There are lots of classes that are a waste of time and effort, the same goes for college.
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Exactly. My husband dropped out because of boredom, and obtained his GED. People can easily get into a state college with a GED and then transfer to a better college after finishing their core classes with a good GPA. And it's cheaper to do it like that.
 
American said:
Although I understand your point, I disagree for this reason; we need to improve the quality of our high school education. College is not a place to learn what you should have learned in high school, and that's what it is becoming through the community college system. Our pathetic public education system is such a failure, that community colleges and even universities are having to teach remedial courses, and teach courses that ought to have been taught in high school.

But if the problem is high dropout rates in high school, the college isn't even an option because they are still in high school. Middle and high school are where we need to focus our energy. That's where the problem lies.
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I had to take remedial courses in math, because in high school the teachers did nothing to motivate me.
Of course I share in the blame too, I should of just did it, but then again most kids try to finish in order to finish, not because learning the material is interesting to them.

I learned more about writing and math, in 1 semester of tech school than I did in middle and high school.
In my opinion, my pre college school experience was abhorrent.
 
evanescence said:
Exactly. My husband dropped out because of boredom, and obtained his GED. People can easily get into a state college with a GED and then transfer to a better college after finishing their core classes with a good GPA. And it's cheaper to do it like that.
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Exactly, although I've found college to be just as redundant and wasteful as high school.
It's been a challenge to get motivated enough to finish up.

Why do they even bother to skills test us through out primary school, if they don't use those scores to put kids in advance placement or different classes.
In 8th grade I scored a collegiate reading level, yet I was left in 8th grade language arts.
It doesn't make any sense.

My GED scores reflected a similar trend.
I scored in the top 1% in 2 categories, top 20% in 2 others and only barely passed 1 (my writing skills were the worst for a long time.)
 
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donsutherland1 said:
From CNBC:



News Headlines

This new data further debunks emerging arguments that the U.S. should de-emphasize a college education. It is consistent with the already large body of evidence showing higher lifetime earnings and greater job stability for those who have college degrees.
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What is not measured is the cost if troublesome and disruptive students instead continue to attend school. I suspect most dropouts also have severe behavioral issues for which continued presence would only be disruptive. The studies also do not consider that a sizeable percentage of teens are intellectually "slow learners" incapable of the the required coursed to mean the required test scores to advance in school or to graduate.

People with college degrees earning higher income might because people with mental disabilities or limited capability are obviously counted non-college category.

The simplistic conclusions of studies often aren't so simple at all.

An interesting study would be to determine the average salary of a person under age 35 who becomes a manufacturers certified auto or diesel mechanic versus the average person under age 35 with a Bachelors degree - or the average income of someone who has a career in the military versus people with a Bachelors degree. I draw the age line because the game was different for those who got in it in older generations.
 
joko104 said:
What is not measured is the cost if troublesome and disruptive students instead continue to attend school. I suspect most dropouts also have severe behavioral issues for which continued presence would only be disruptive. The studies also do not consider that a sizeable percentage of teens are intellectually "slow learners" incapable of the the required coursed to mean the required test scores to advance in school or to graduate.

People with college degrees earning higher income might because people with mental disabilities or limited capability are obviously counted non-college category.

The simplistic conclusions of studies often aren't so simple at all.

An interesting study would be to determine the average salary of a person under age 35 who becomes a manufacturers certified auto or diesel mechanic versus the average person under age 35 with a Bachelors degree - or the average income of someone who has a career in the military versus people with a Bachelors degree. I draw the age line because the game was different for those who got in it in older generations.
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Not all drop outs are slow learners or disruptive.
I think the estimate is that 5% are in the gifted level, which is a huge problem, because it's allowing potential talent to fall by the way side.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I had to take remedial courses in math, because in high school the teachers did nothing to motivate me.
Of course I share in the blame too, I should of just did it, but then again most kids try to finish in order to finish, not because learning the material is interesting to them.

I learned more about writing and math, in 1 semester of tech school than I did in middle and high school.
In my opinion, my pre college school experience was abhorrent.
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Same here. Except that the first degree I got was in History/ Poli Sci so i didn't take any math at all. In HS, I was behind because my parents moved all the time and every different school I went to had a different curriculum. So ten years later, I started back in college. My liberal arts degree (from an unaccredited Christian college no less) was basically worthless, so I decided to go back for Nursing. I had to take a couple of remedial classes in math to catch back up. I actually learned more in those two courses than all the math I took in junior high and in high school. Aside from the fact that Algebra is a useless subject, at least I did well. Now, I'm finishing up Probability and Statistics, and I have found that this class actually has some applicable skills to real life.

Harry Guerrilla said:
Exactly, although I've found college to be just as redundant and wasteful as high school.
It's been a challenge to get motivated enough to finish up.

Why do they even bother to skills test us through out primary school, if they don't use those scores to put kids in advance placement or different classes.
In 8th grade I scored a collegiate reading level, yet I was left in 8th grade language arts.
It doesn't make any sense.

My GED scores reflected a similar trend.
I scored in the top 1% in 2 categories, top 20% in 2 others and only barely passed 1 (my writing skills were the worst for a long time.)
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My husband did the same. Scored very high on his GED despite having dropped out of school his freshman year at 14. He even qualified for some free credits in college. He basically taught himself everything he needed to know.
 
I'll never understand why some people think fighting against education is a good thing.
 
evanescence said:
Same here. Except that the first degree I got was in History/ Poli Sci so i didn't take any math at all. In HS, I was behind because my parents moved all the time and every different school I went to had a different curriculum. So ten years later, I started back in college. My liberal arts degree (from an unaccredited Christian college no less) was basically worthless, so I decided to go back for Nursing. I had to take a couple of remedial classes in math to catch back up. I actually learned more in those two courses than all the math I took in junior high and in high school. Aside from the fact that Algebra is a useless subject, at least I did well. Now, I'm finishing up Probability and Statistics, and I have found that this class actually has some applicable skills to real life.
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Completely agree.
Factoring, absolute values, etc is a turgid waste, I much rather learn probably and statistics.
I understand that they teach all this math, to actually teach logic, but so many people don't learn logic this way.

evanescence said:
My husband did the same. Scored very high on his GED despite having dropped out of school his freshman year at 14. He even qualified for some free credits in college. He basically taught himself everything he needed to know.
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I was failing in high school, didn't do the home work mostly and was tutoring the kids in my classes that I was failing, to pass the time.
I didn't get any free credits though. :(

Passed my poli sci final with a 96 after spending 1 day in class.
Still had to sit through the rest of the class. :(
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Completely agree.
Factoring, absolute values, etc is a turgid waste, I much rather learn probably and statistics.
I understand that they teach all this math, to actually teach logic, but so many people don't learn logic this way.



I was failing in high school, didn't do the home work mostly and was tutoring the kids in my classes that I was failing, to pass the time.
I didn't get any free credits though. :(

Passed my poli sci final with a 96 after spending 1 day in class.
Still had to sit through the rest of the class. :(
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lol school was soooo boring. i almost never did my homework. I spent a lot of time getting high. I did well on tests, and poorly on homework and projects. Still, I wish I had the wisdom I have now, and applied myself. I could have gotten scholarships to go to college on instead of taking out loans.
 
evanescence said:
lol school was soooo boring. i almost never did my homework. I spent a lot of time getting high. I did well on tests, and poorly on homework and projects. Still, I wish I had the wisdom I have now, and applied myself. I could have gotten scholarships to go to college on instead of taking out loans.
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That's true, I just wish that they designed school in a way that encouraged you to complete it for more reasons, than you just should.
Telling a kid that, "you should just do it" or "you have to do it", is a crappy way to motivate.
 
Goldenboy219 said:
My answer? The U.S.'s addiction to low skilled labor.
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Is it an addiction to low skilled labor? Or an addiction to low paid labor? Because those are two mutually exclusive things.
 
If we shift the "drop out" question to college level, weren't both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both college dropouts? They both became mega billionaires and redefined all of communications, electronics and socialization.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
That's true, I just wish that they designed school in a way that encouraged you to complete it for more reasons, than you just should.
Telling a kid that, "you should just do it" or "you have to do it", is a crappy way to motivate.
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That sounds like: "because I said so!" And I've actually caught myself saying that to my kids. :lamo

I am seriously considering homeschooling if I can't afford private school for my kids. Public schools suck.
 
evanescence said:
That sounds like: "because I said so!" And I've actually caught myself saying that to my kids. :lamo

I am seriously considering homeschooling if I can't afford private school for my kids. Public schools suck.
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We do it.
It's a challenge and it costs us more in both potential income and in education materials, but in my opinion it's well worth it.

Our older son is a well mannered and generally excellent kid.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Yes - very good. But the article doens't discuss college. It discusses high school drop out rates. :shrug:

So: your point is . . . ??

I think the issues with education is that it's been given such a fashoinable negative - most people just don't value it.
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I don't think that's true at all. I think most people value an education.

The only thing is there's a difference between a technical education and an academic education.

The real pay is not in an academic education anymore, and has been declining over the years. The only reason why college students get a degree in English Literature or Art History is so that they can try to get a job teaching it to other English Literature or Art History students who will try to get a job teaching it.

What we need to focus on is a technical education. Civil engineering degrees. Industrial chemistry degrees. Computer science degrees.

Even on a lower level we need welders, mechanics, and truck drivers. Those all require skills of various sorts. And they can, eventually, allow a motivated person to start his own small business in those fields.

But a lot of 20-somethings aren't that patient. Rather, they'd rather try to make it big fast via media fame of some sort. And when we pay celebrities millions to just be celebrities, I'm not surprised at that.
 
samsmart said:
I don't think that's true at all. I think most people value an education.

The only thing is there's a difference between a technical education and an academic education.

The real pay is not in an academic education anymore, and has been declining over the years. The only reason why college students get a degree in English Literature or Art History is so that they can try to get a job teaching it to other English Literature or Art History students who will try to get a job teaching it.

What we need to focus on is a technical education. Civil engineering degrees. Industrial chemistry degrees. Computer science degrees.

Even on a lower level we need welders, mechanics, and truck drivers. Those all require skills of various sorts. And they can, eventually, allow a motivated person to start his own small business in those fields.

But a lot of 20-somethings aren't that patient. Rather, they'd rather try to make it big fast via media fame of some sort. And when we pay celebrities millions to just be celebrities, I'm not surprised at that.
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Some of those technical skills don't even require an education.
Hell it took me 15 minutes to learn to mig weld, time on the job perfected it.

The problem is that many employers are using degrees and certifications as gate keepers, instead of more dynamic ways of testing competency.
 
I still find it astounding that 30 percent of today's youth drop out of school.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Some of those technical skills don't even require an education.
Hell it took me 15 minutes to learn to mig weld, time on the job perfected it.

The problem is that many employers are using degrees and certifications as gate keepers, instead of more dynamic ways of testing competency.
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That is because wire feed is easy as hell. You point and shoot. You could teach anyone in a day. Employers generally do not have the time/money to train everyone, and if they do they want to make damn sure they are not going to waste their time on that person. There are extremely good reasons why employers use prereqs like degrees. It signals many things about a person aptitude, work ethic, etc. Employers don't have the time or money to see if you will be a good employee, that and they assume a massive amount of risk and liability just from highering you.
 
drz-400 said:
That is because wire feed is easy as hell. You point and shoot. You could teach anyone in a day.
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It is, but then again I've seen a lot of people fail at learning it quickly.
Just my experience.

drz-400 said:
Employers generally do not have the time/money to train everyone, and if they do they want to make damn sure they are not going to waste their time on that person. There are extremely good reasons why employers use prereqs like degrees. It signals many things about a person aptitude, work ethic, etc. Employers don't have the time or money to see if you will be a good employee, that and they assume a massive amount of risk and liability just from highering you.
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I understand, but there should be more varied ways of testing competency.
Using a degree or cert is incomplete.
It does not account for those who rapid process and utilize information, it does not prove good problem solving skills, work ethic, etc.

Degrees have become superfluous because they are institutionalized and regimented.
Basically, follow these steps, you win a degree.
That doesn't show that the person is a good problem solver, good manager, has good people skills, etc.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
It is, but then again I've seen a lot of people fail at learning it quickly.
Just my experience.



I understand, but there should be more varied ways of testing competency.
Using a degree or cert is incomplete.
It does not account for those who rapid process and utilize information, it does not prove good problem solving skills, work ethic, etc.

Degrees have become superfluous because they are institutionalized and regimented.
Basically, follow these steps, you win a degree.
That doesn't show that the person is a good problem solver, good manager, has good people skills, etc.
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Education pays; there really is no way of denying it!

ep_chart_001.JPG


The U.S. will require an even greater emphasis on education if we wish to remain competitive in the globalized information based economy of the present and future.
 
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