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China uneasy over US troop deal in Australia

Serenity said:
Many Australians are not happy about this. There has been no public discussion/input preceeding this announcement. Why would any sovereign country in times of peace allow another country’s military unit to be stationed on their own soil?
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Ummmm.... you make a statement like this and we expect to take you seriously? You obviously know little of what has been going on around the world the past few decades...
 
Australia has been worried about China for decades. They have been trying to increase population, and they have the natural resources to sustain such growth. Australia has flourished economically while the most of the rest of the "civilized" world has struggled the last 5 years. The relationship is good for the US and for AU.
 
ludahai said:
Ummmm.... you make a statement like this and we expect to take you seriously?
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I don't give a rats ass if you take me seriously or not......I'm expressing how i and many other Australians feel.
 
How many Americans here would allow another Country to establish a military base on US soil and be happy about it?

This is an unnecessary provocation. Australia is one of the few nations that undeniably stand shoulder to shoulder with America come hell or high water. Obama knows that and he's using that and us to his advantage. Who the hell does he think he is? Americas version of Crocodile Dundee?
 
Serenity said:
How many Americans here would allow another Country to establish a military base on US soil and be happy about it?
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Very few.

This is an unnecessary provocation. Australia is one of the few nations that undeniably stand shoulder to shoulder with America come hell or high water. Obama knows that and he's using that and us to his advantage. Who the hell does he think he is? Americas version of Crocodile Dundee?
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I can see where McCain might have done the very same thing IMO. As you point out though, it's not something we would accept so I'm not sure why we think it's such a great thing for others to accept. (not all of us do)
 
Serenity said:
How many Americans here would allow another Country to establish a military base on US soil and be happy about it?
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Although on any given day there are thousands of foreign military personnel in the United States, the only thing even remotely similar would be the NORAD complex in Colorado which is jointly staffed by US and Canadian air force personnel.

The US has many hundreds of military bases all over the world. These just don't fall out of the sky. Virtually all such US bases are born/existent via a Status Of Forces Agreement (SOFA). For whatever reasons, your Australian government signed on the dotted line.
 
Maybe the aussies and our govt are aware or worried about something we dont know yet...

Australia has been our allies along time...australia had troops for years in VietNam...in support of us
 
Tashah said:
Although on any given day there are thousands of foreign military personnel in the United States, the only thing even remotely similar would be the NORAD complex in Colorado which is jointly staffed by US and Canadian air force personnel.
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Thousands of foreign military personnel in the USA? Really? Where are they, and where are they from?
 
Dittohead not! said:
Thousands of foreign military personnel in the USA? Really? Where are they, and where are they from?
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There are always foreign military attaches meeting their US counterparts at the Pentagon. They also monitor the quality/specifications of purchased military hardware items produced by US firms. Foreign officers/soldiers receive training at many Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps bases. Specialized training occurs at Quantico and Ranger School. Foreign Special Forces soldiers such as the SAS train here with Delta Force personnel. Germany has an air defense school in El Paso and trains pilots at Holloman Air Force base. 30 countries send officers to the Naval Postgraduate School. There are always foreign soldiers at the US Military School of Languages in Monterrey. I myself spent two weeks at Creech Air Force base in Nevada (USAF/UAV Command)... and the British Royal Air Force has a squadron that trains extensively at Creech. The US DoD is vast and foreign military personnel are always here to learn/train, purchase equipment, and exchange knowledge/intelligence.
 
Tashah said:
There are always foreign military attaches meeting their US counterparts at the Pentagon. They also monitor the quality/specifications of purchased military hardware items produced by US firms. Foreign officers/soldiers receive training at many Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps bases. Specialized training occurs at Quantico and Ranger School. Foreign Special Forces soldiers such as the SAS train here with Delta Force personnel. Germany has an air defense school in El Paso and trains pilots at Holloman Air Force base. 30 countries send officers to the Naval Postgraduate School. There are always foreign soldiers at the US Military School of Languages in Monterrey. I myself spent two weeks at Creech Air Force base in Nevada (USAF/UAV Command)... and the British Royal Air Force has a squadron that trains extensively at Creech. The US DoD is vast and foreign military personnel are always here to learn/train, purchase equipment, and exchange knowledge/intelligence.
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Do you really believe any of that can honestly be compared to the US setting up a military base in the top end of Australia to permanently house up to 2500 US Marines? This is a deliberate and strategic decision for the United States to play a larger and long-term role in shaping this region and its future(Obama's own words). This is a provocative move which has China and Indonesia expressing concern and makes Australians more vulnerable to attacks by anti-american extremists in my opinion, and it's also very possible that stationing American troops in Darwin permanently could very, very easily be used to inflame anti-Australian sentiment.

Spud, i noticed you chimed in with a like on Tashas post. (I liked it purely for the information provided) and obviously you don't feel as strongly about this as i do but i have a question for you.

Do you believe this could be used to inflame Anti Australian sentiment? Are you now more concerned with the real possibility that 600,000 Australians living and visiting Indonesia every year may be more at risk from people who think like Umar Pathek? I am. I'm not keen on another Bali Bombing experience or anything remotely like it.
 
Serenity said:
Spud, i noticed you chimed in with a like on Tashas post. (I liked it purely for the information provided) and obviously you don't feel as strongly about this as i do but i have a question for you.

Do you believe this could be used to inflame Anti Australian sentiment? Are you now more concerned with the real possibility that 600,000 Australians living and visiting Indonesia every year may be more at risk from people who think like Umar Pathek? I am. I'm not keen on another Bali Bombing experience or anything remotely like it.
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My personal view of the whole thing is that we should exit the ANZUS treaty and if we are to make military treaties, do so with regional allies, preferably ones that won't drag us into war after war after war. But that's unlikely to happen, so in this case I don't really care about the troops. I'm sure there's a chance it may increase some anti-Australian sentiment, but a myriad of things could do that, and the risk is minimal.
 
Serenity said:
How many Americans here would allow another Country to establish a military base on US soil and be happy about it?

This is an unnecessary provocation. Australia is one of the few nations that undeniably stand shoulder to shoulder with America come hell or high water. Obama knows that and he's using that and us to his advantage. Who the hell does he think he is? Americas version of Crocodile Dundee?
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Why is it a provocation? There are security threats in the Asia-Pacific region... the only security threat in North America comes from illegal immigration...
 
Serenity said:
Do you really believe any of that can honestly be compared to the US setting up a military base in the top end of Australia to permanently house up to 2500 US Marines? This is a deliberate and strategic decision for the United States to play a larger and long-term role in shaping this region and its future(Obama's own words). This is a provocative move which has China and Indonesia expressing concern and makes Australians more vulnerable to attacks by anti-american extremists in my opinion, and it's also very possible that stationing American troops in Darwin permanently could very, very easily be used to inflame anti-Australian sentiment.
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The post of mine that you quoted (#34) was my response to a question posed to me by Dittohead not (#33).

At any rate, you seem to feel that the US is the bad guy here while absolutely ignoring your own government’s acquiescence. The US can’t just drop a base in Australia or in any other nation without the express permission (SOFA) of the host government. One of two things happened here. Either the US asked and Australia said yes, or Australia asked and the US said yes. Either way, it only came to fruition because of Australian assent. Your beef should be with your own government rather than with the US.
 
Tashah said:
At any rate, you seem to feel that the US is the bad guy here while absolutely ignoring your own government’s acquiescence. The US can’t just drop a base in Australia or in any other nation without the express permission (SOFA) of the host government. One of two things happened here. Either the US asked and Australia said yes, or Australia asked and the US said yes. Either way, it only came to fruition because of Australian assent. Your beef should be with your own government rather than with the US.
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My beef is with both Governments Tashah which should be obvious when in my very first post in this thread (post #7), i said

Serenity said:
What surprises me most is that there has been absolutely no public discussion at all of this issue. This is a highly provacative move. What are we. The disposable front line in case of attack???

F*ck you Julia Gillard. Why don't you just ask the US Administration to just "liberate" us and make us officially the 51st state.
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Julia Gillard is the PM of Australia. From my initial comment it should be obvious that i was unimpressed with my own Governments part in the decision.
 
Serenity said:
Julia Gillard is the PM of Australia. From my initial comment it should be obvious that i was unimpressed with my own Governments part in the decision.
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Bottom line.

Any country in the world can seek permission for a military base on Australian soil.

However, it can only happen if the Australian government says yes and signs the agreements.
 
Tashah said:
Bottom line.

Any country in the world can seek permission for a military base on Australian soil.

However, it can only happen if the Australian government says yes and signs the agreements.
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Clearly i understand that which is obviously why i didn't mince my words regarding my feelings for our PM in my very first reply in this thread Tashah.

Tashah said:
At any rate, you seem to feel that the US is the bad guy here while absolutely ignoring your own government’s acquiescence.
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Now that i have pointed out my first post to you Tashah, i assume that you will concede that you are incorrect with your assessment here.

Thank you.
 
spud_meister said:
My personal view of the whole thing is that we should exit the ANZUS treaty and if we are to make military treaties, do so with regional allies, preferably ones that won't drag us into war after war after war. But that's unlikely to happen, so in this case I don't really care about the troops. I'm sure there's a chance it may increase some anti-Australian sentiment, but a myriad of things could do that, and the risk is minimal.
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Time well tell i guess Spud.

Princess Fiona - worst PM ever.
 
Serenity said:
Now that i have pointed out my first post to you Tashah, i assume that you will concede that you are incorrect with your assessment here.
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My apologies if I am entirely incorrect. However, the post below seemed entirely and exclusively US-centric. This is what I was addressing.

Serenity said:
Do you really believe any of that can honestly be compared to the US setting up a military base in the top end of Australia to permanently house up to 2500 US Marines? This is a deliberate and strategic decision for the United States to play a larger and long-term role in shaping this region and its future(Obama's own words). This is a provocative move which has China and Indonesia expressing concern and makes Australians more vulnerable to attacks by anti-american extremists in my opinion, and it's also very possible that stationing American troops in Darwin permanently could very, very easily be used to inflame anti-Australian sentiment.
Click to expand...
 
Tashah said:
My apologies if I am entirely incorrect. However, the post below seemed entirely and exclusively US-centric. This is what I was addressing.
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Apology accepted Tashah. You know me better than that from my posts. I also mentioned more than once that Australians have a very good relationship with our friends in the US and have always been loyal to them and the military will be warmly embraced and taken care of by Aussies.

My motivation for speaking out is always for the innocents that could get caught up in any conflict. I don't for one minute think that anyone will target a US Military base here. That's not how extremists work, they target civillians. Hence my mention of concern for the 600,000 Australians who visit or reside in Indonesia each year and hence my mention of another attack like we suffered in Bali.
 
Although Beijing has long-feared encirclement well before this deal e.g., during the Cold War, the reality is that 2,500 troops do not, in any meaningful way, alter the regional balance of power. This is an arrangement that the U.S. and Australian governments feel reinforce their interests. It is not something that extends beyond those interests. It does not have broad implications for the region as a whole.
 
Tashah said:
Bottom line.

Any country in the world can seek permission for a military base on Australian soil.

However, it can only happen if the Australian government says yes and signs the agreements.
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I can understand the citizens of Australia that are upset over it. We would likely quickly kick out any politician that went along with anything similiar.
 
"Could anyone imagine the Chinese government sending carriers and submarines to the California coast and announcing their intention to play a larger long-term role in shaping the western coasts of the Americas?"


Obviously the answer is no because if China did that it would trigger a global conflict but yet some Americans fail to see why China might get a little angry themselves over this new action. Oh well lets spend more money that China loaned to defend ourselves against China...Crazy F**ked up world
 
Higgins86 said:
"Could anyone imagine the Chinese government sending carriers and submarines to the California coast and announcing their intention to play a larger long-term role in shaping the western coasts of the Americas?"


Obviously the answer is no because if China did that it would trigger a global conflict but yet some Americans fail to see why China might get a little angry themselves over this new action. Oh well lets spend more money that China loaned to defend ourselves against China...Crazy F**ked up world
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The U.S. has many bases around the world. The number of troops at those bases are not always constant. However, there has been no significant upward trend on a global basis. The small base in Australia won't change that. As a result, the U.S. is not materially impacting the regional balance of power. Moreover, long-term fiscal pressures make it more likely than not that U.S. overseas deployment could decline over the medium- and longer-term.

In contrast, China does not have military bases distributed around the world. Hence, even a move toward a small base, would raise questions as to whether China is fundamentally changing its military doctrine (traditionally focused on the East Asia region) to a more global focus that includes enhanced power projection capabilities. Historically, rising powers have broadened their military focus to reflect the expansion of their global interests, so moves by China to increase its ability to project power would not be inconsistent with history. Whether such moves would take the form of overseas bases (probably not the most likely outcome) or increased naval/air capabilities (more likely and already underway to some extent) remains to be seen.
 
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I cant help but laugh however when Obama made his speech in Australia- stating that Australia is the most important friend in Asia Pacific region...

Seriously? hahahaha
Apparently, Obama cancelled his Australia visit for the past 2 years (in a row) and suddenly he turns up at the doorstep and call Australia the most important friend...
If I had a friend like that I would just shut the door and ask him to sod off.
 
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