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Police clear out Oakland protest camp

Boo Radley said:
I respectfully disagree. It's not camping, but protest. Continued protest. So while i don't put OWS in the same category as the vets, who were seriously wronged, a national disgrace, the fact remains, peaceful protest, even when sitting and staing on public land, doesn't bother me much.
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Its not graffiti.... its protest!!!!!!!

Its not arson.... its protest!!!!!!

Its not murder..... its protest!!!!!

Your argument is not sane..... its insane!!!!!
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Apparently, breaking the law is ok, as long as you're protesting.
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To protest and assemble is a right, and thus the government is restricted in the means and powers it can deploy to interfere with the exercise of that right.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Not really.
If you let some people get away with breaking the law, then others may jump on the bandwagon.
Not a very good image to project.

They had their chance to camp and protest, they were asked to leave and they should of acted reasonable and left.
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believe it or not, you can be too tied to the letter of a law that you lose perspective. Sometimes it is just better to let it run its course.

See your acting as if the police were the problem.
The police don't come into this, until someone breaks the law.

They shouldn't compromise with people breaking the law, that's not their job.
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Actually, in this section I was complementing the police. There I thought they used proper restraint, good sense and kept the peace. Okland ended quite differently.

And they didn't compromise. They helped the community and the protesters compromise. Calm heads are often better than angry ones, particularly where young people are involved.
 
Caine said:
Its not graffiti.... its protest!!!!!!!

Its not arson.... its protest!!!!!!

Its not murder..... its protest!!!!!

Your argument is not sane..... its insane!!!!!
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I don't think you're following the argument. No one said there is no line. All that is said is that some restraint and reason is . . . well . . . reasonable.
 
Boo Radley said:
I don't think you're following the argument. No one said there is no line. All that is said is that some restraint and reason is . . . well . . . reasonable.
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Which is what has been used.

Essentially, cities all over the U.S. have allowed the squatters to squat until the squatters camps started becoming cesspools of criminal activity and filth.

The occupy group in my town is maybe around 150 people or so, and has not become a cesspool of crime and filth, and thus, has not been closed down.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Can you assemble, any where you want, in any manner you please?
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Private property is of course up to the property owner to decide. Many forms of public land should be open.
 
Boo Radley said:
believe it or not, you can be too tied to the letter of a law that you lose perspective. Sometimes it is just better to let it run its course.



Actually, in this section I was complementing the police. There I thought they used proper restraint, good sense and kept the peace. Okland ended quite differently.

And they didn't compromise. They helped the community and the protesters compromise. Calm heads are often better than angry ones, particularly where young people are involved.
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City of Oakland said, "You can't camp, but you can protest during regular park hours."

Protesters said, "No."

Did I miss something?
Did the city compromise?
I pretty sure they did here.

So what did they do wrong?
 
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Ikari said:
Private property is of course up to the property owner to decide. Many forms of public land should be open.
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And what happens when you have 2 or more people wanting to use that same space of public land?
First come, first serve?

That would also be the same as silencing the 2nd person's right to assemble, at least from what you've said here
 
Caine said:
Which is what has been used.

Essentially, cities all over the U.S. have allowed the squatters to squat until the squatters camps started becoming cesspools of criminal activity and filth.

The occupy group in my town is maybe around 150 people or so, and has not become a cesspool of crime and filth, and thus, has not been closed down.
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I'm not sure that's entirely true. I gave an example of a reasonable police force getting better results. Now, things are never likely to be perfect, especially the more people you get in any one area, but I prefer reasonable acts over unreasonable acts. Some restraint over reacting without thinking it through.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
And what happens when you have 2 or more people wanting to use that same space of public land?
First come, first serve?

That would also be the same as silencing the 2nd person's right to assemble, at least from what you've said here
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Essentially first come. If both groups are small enough, both can occupy the same small land. There is no real eloquent solution to that since one would strive to preserve both group's right to assemble and protest. Though what we are discussing here is not so much another civilian group attempting exercise of rights; but rather government intervention against the exercise of rights.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
City of Oakland said, "You can't camp, but you can protest during regular park hours."

Protesters said, "No."

Did I miss something?
Did the city compromise?
I pretty sure they did here.

So what did they do wrong?
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At what time of day did they try to remove them? And would them camping have really been that big a deal? In the city i speak of they said, sure, camp, but do it over here, and set aside a space. A compromise.
 
Ikari said:
Essentially first come. If both groups are small enough, both can occupy the same small land. There is no real eloquent solution to that since one would strive to preserve both group's right to assemble and protest. Though what we are discussing here is not so much another civilian group attempting exercise of rights; but rather government intervention against the exercise of rights.
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And what happens if group 2, 3 , 4, etc won't leave?
They can just duke it out until there is a winner?

What if they decide to use that public space indefinitely?
Isn't that unfair to others who pay taxes for and want to use that space?
 
Ikari said:
To protest and assemble is a right, and thus the government is restricted in the means and powers it can deploy to interfere with the exercise of that right.
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Does this assembly have to be in accordance with existing laws and ordinances? Or can we just ignore laws when we feel we have a greater right?


j-mac
 
Boo Radley said:
At what time of day did they try to remove them? And would them camping have really been that big a deal? In the city i speak of they said, sure, camp, but do it over here, and set aside a space. A compromise.
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At night, when the OWS decided to not comply with the multiple warnings.

Yes camping can be a big deal, especially in a crime haven like Oakland.
Who should be responsible for cleaning up feces, trash, etc?

It's a public park not meant for camping at all.
They were not designed to accompany campers.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm not sure that's entirely true. I gave an example of a reasonable police force getting better results. Now, things are never likely to be perfect, especially the more people you get in any one area, but I prefer reasonable acts over unreasonable acts. Some restraint over reacting without thinking it through.
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Getting better results than what?

Are you going to bring up the incident in Oakland where the Iraq veteran was hurt while trying to RE-OCCUPY again?

The original removal of Oakland that day went off fine...... It got good results....
 
Caine said:
Getting better results than what?

Are you going to bring up the incident in Oakland where the Iraq veteran was hurt while trying to RE-OCCUPY again?

The original removal of Oakland that day went off fine...... It got good results....
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Nope, that example never crossed my mind. the mere fact that they let it get to the point of throwing tear gas is enough for me to suggest they didn't get excellent results.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
At night, when the OWS decided to not comply with the multiple warnings.

Yes camping can be a big deal, especially in a crime haven like Oakland.
Who should be responsible for cleaning up feces, trash, etc?

It's a public park not meant for camping at all.
They were not designed to accompany campers.
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And what would eb the terrible consequences if they left them be?
 
Boo Radley said:
Nope, that example never crossed my mind. the mere fact that they let it get to the point of throwing tear gas is enough for me to suggest they didn't get excellent results.
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When a crowd does not follow a reasonable order.
The same one that said, "You can protest, you just can't camp."

What else should they do?
Run away and hide?
 
Caine said:
Getting better results than what?

Are you going to bring up the incident in Oakland where the Iraq veteran was hurt while trying to RE-OCCUPY again?

The original removal of Oakland that day went off fine...... It got good results....
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Absolutely. And it should be noted that it was starting to become clear that this ex Marine, whom btw was the founder of ihatethemarines.com, was most likely hit with a flying bottle, or rock.

The propaganda surrounding that incident would have made Hezbollah proud.


j-mac
 
Boo Radley said:
And what would eb the terrible consequences if they left them be?
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Continued crime and general lawlessness, continued trashing the public space, denying others the right to use the public space, blight.
The city can be held liable for not enforcing the law and someone getting hurt too

Lawsuits are fun right.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
When a crowd does not follow a reasonable order.
The same one that said, "You can protest, you just can't camp."

What else should they do?
Run away and hide?
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Same thing I tell parents with children, never back yourself in a corner where you don't have a choice but to do the worse. Pick your fights. I ask again, what we be the great consequences if you left them be?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Continued crime and general lawlessness, continued trashing the public space, denying others the right to use the public space, blight.
The city can be held liable for not enforcing the law and someone getting hurt too

Lawsuits are fun right.
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I doubt that. I really do. I suspect it would have run its course and the kids would eventurally just go home. you harder the conviction by overreacting.
 
Boo Radley said:
Same thing I tell parents with children, never back yourself in a corner where you don't have a choice but to do the worse. Pick your fights. I ask again, what we be the great consequences if you left them be?
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Any attempt to assign some order to this has been met with, "Your taking away meh rights!!"
 
Boo Radley said:
Nope, that example never crossed my mind. the mere fact that they let it get to the point of throwing tear gas is enough for me to suggest they didn't get excellent results.
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Let it get to that point?

You STILL have no clue what happened on that night in Oakland do you.

Attempting to re-take a park from local authorities for your little crime haven protest has nothing to do with protesting.
 
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