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'Waterboarding is torture,' says Obama

Boo Radley said:
Not really, not in what we face today.
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Gathering intel will always be a highly crucial aspect of warfare, no matter who you're fighting, or how you're fighting them.


But, again, the most unrelaible way to gather information it through torture. Torture is much more effective at getting confessions. Even the innocent will confess. If you want information, you use more effective methods.
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I guess that's why it's been practice for the past few thousand years; because it's so ineffective.

Any information, regardless of the collection technique, has to be varified. That's the difference between, "raw intel", and, "actionable intel".
 
I guess that's why it's been practice for the past few thousand years; because it's so ineffective.
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Civilizations throughout history have used torture to get the information they want. That doesn't mean that they got accurate information, but it was enough for them. Its not enough for me.
 
muciti said:
Civilizations throughout history have used torture to get the information they want. That doesn't mean that they got accurate information, but it was enough for them. Its not enough for me.
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How do you suppose we extract information from prisoners? Give them a Coke and hope they tell the truth?
 
apdst said:
Gathering intel will always be a highly crucial aspect of warfare, no matter who you're fighting, or how you're fighting them.
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Means less concerning an enemy that can't possibily beat you. But you miss the point. The war on terrorism is much like the wars on poverty, drugs and crime. Very different from being at war with a nation.


I guess that's why it's been practice for the past few thousand years; because it's so ineffective.

Any information, regardless of the collection technique, has to be varified. That's the difference between, "raw intel", and, "actionable intel".
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As I said, it's very good for confession. And, yes, many because they didn't really now better likely thought it worked. But because it has been around so long, we have been able to study it. That's why today we KNOW that we're more likely to get misinformation, unreliable information, and that other efforts are more effective. And this is true regardless of the intel being raw or actionable.
 
muciti said:
Civilizations throughout history have used torture to get the information they want. That doesn't mean that they got accurate information, but it was enough for them. Its not enough for me.
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if they don't get accurate or useful information, they would stop doing it.
 
Boo Radley said:
Means less concerning an enemy that can't possibily beat you. But you miss the point. The war on terrorism is much like the wars on poverty, drugs and crime. Very different from being at war with a nation.
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There's no such thing as an enemy that can't be defeated.




As I said, it's very good for confession. And, yes, many because they didn't really now better likely thought it worked. But because it has been around so long, we have been able to study it. That's why today we KNOW that we're more likely to get misinformation, unreliable information, and that other efforts are more effective. And this is true regardless of the intel being raw or actionable.
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No, that's just a talking point from the, "let's treat them with kid gloves", crowd. The fact is, no matter how you extract information from a prisoner, it has to be varified. A prisoner isn't less likely to lie, if you're nice.

A harcore terrorists isn't going to say to himself, "they've been so nice to me, I'm going to tell them everything I know".
 
apdst said:
How do you suppose we extract information from prisoners? Give them a Coke and hope they tell the truth?
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That's flippent and nonresponsive. The fact is we do regularly get information without torture. In fact, if you follow the events in Iraq, you will find we got a lot more intell once we stopped with the rough stuff. More accurate intel.
 
OscarB63 said:
if they don't get accurate or useful information, they would stop doing it.
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We had stopped.

If you look at the recent history, you'll notice that because of a lack of trained interrogators they got the SERE guys involved.

And, what's more, we have stopped using it.
 
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apdst said:
There's no such thing as an enemy that can't be defeated.
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Not really true. The girl scouts will not be the Green Bay Packers in a Football game. GB would have to defeat themselves.



No, that's just a talking point from the, "let's treat them with kid gloves", crowd. The fact is, no matter how you extract information from a prisoner, it has to be varified. A prisoner isn't less likely to lie, if you're nice.

A harcore terrorists isn't going to say to himself, "they've been so nice to me, I'm going to tell them everything I know".
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Nonsense. You dismiss it that because you're too lazy to look it up, to read, and to understand the issue. Much is written on torture, many books, including studies by the military and the CIA.

And no one is talking about being nice. That's another lazy effort on your part. Make fun of the position so as to not have to do the work of understadning it and debating it.
 
Boo Radley said:
That's flippent and nonresponsive. The fact is we do regularly get information without torture.
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You're right and torture shouldn't be the first option, however it shouldn't ruled out as an option, either.


In fact, if you follow the events in Iraq, you will find we got a lot more intell once we stopped with the rough stuff. More accurate intel.
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And, you can back that up, yes?
 
Boo Radley said:
Not really true. The girl scouts will not be the Green Bay Packers in a Football game. GB would have to defeat themselves.
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In a nose-to-nose footbal game, you're right. But, if the girl scouts gathered enough information about the players they would be facing, they could find certain weaknesses that could allow them to develope a winning strategy.





Nonsense. You dismiss it that because you're too lazy to look it up, to read, and to understand the issue. Much is written on torture, many books, including studies by the military and the CIA.
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How about you show us the info. I would love to see you support your onw comments for a change.

And no one is talking about being nice. That's another lazy effort on your part. Make fun of the position so as to not have to do the work of understadning it and debating it.
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I think the, "treat'em with kid gloves", folks don't know what they're talking about, to begin with.
 
Boo Radley said:
Means less concerning an enemy that can't possibily beat you. But you miss the point. The war on terrorism is much like the wars on poverty, drugs and crime. Very different from being at war with a nation.




As I said, it's very good for confession. And, yes, many because they didn't really now better likely thought it worked. But because it has been around so long, we have been able to study it. That's why today we KNOW that we're more likely to get misinformation, unreliable information, and that other efforts are more effective. And this is true regardless of the intel being raw or actionable.
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Exactly what methods have been proven to be more effective?
 
apdst said:
You're right and torture shouldn't be the first option, however it shouldn't ruled out as an option, either.
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Why not? it's ineffective and immoral. We certainly have demonized other countries who have done it, and we don't want to give excuse for others to do so to our people. By excusing it, we make it acceptable not only for lawless terrorist, but other nations, who can simply point to us if we become involved in some conflict. Rule of law has a place. And protecting the innocnet should be of concern.

And, you can back that up, yes?
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Of course.

The Gamble: General Petraeus and the ... - Thomas E. Ricks - Google Books

It would be clearer if you read the entire book.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Drowning means dying from asphyxiation brought on from water in the lungs. So I am not sure why you chose to use the phrase "nothing more"--waterboarding is nothing more than a simulation of killing someone. IDK. It just sound like a weird place for the phrase, imho. ymmv.

In the US anyway, the definition of torture includes psychological torture.

Daniel Pearl would have preferred to come home unharmed to his wife and unborn child over being water boarded. He also may have preferred chocolate ice cream to vanilla ice cream.

Is there a point in your post somewhere? Just curious.
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In a round-about way, my point was to refer to the monster wielding the knife that sliced Pearl's throat to the bone.

If we needed info from that animal, I would certainly agree to pouring water on his face.
 
Of course waterboarding is torture. Denying that is totally idiotic.

Instead, people should argue that torture is permissible in rare instances. For example, denying that torture is appropriate when you know that a suspect has information about an imminent threat to the lives of Americans, and non-torture tactics have proved unavailing, is equally idiotic.
 
Krhazy said:
Of course waterboarding is torture. Denying that is totally idiotic.

Instead, people should argue that torture is permissible in rare instances. For example, denying that torture is appropriate when you know that a suspect has information about an imminent threat to the lives of Americans, and non-torture tactics have proved unavailing, is equally idiotic.
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I beg to differ. shoving bamboo slivers under someone's fingernails is torture. connecting a field generator to someone's genitals is torture. shoving a glass rod up someone's penis and hitting it with a hammer is torture. shoving boiling turkey eggs up someone's ass is torture. cutting someone with a razor and then pouring salt water or alcohol into the wounds is torture.

tying someone up and pouring water over their face, though uncomfortable (I know, been there done that), is NOT torture. just like putting a pair of panties over a guy's head is not torture.
 
OscarB63 said:
I beg to differ. shoving bamboo slivers under someone's fingernails is torture. connecting a field generator to someone's genitals is torture. shoving a glass rod up someone's penis and hitting it with a hammer is torture. shoving boiling turkey eggs up someone's ass is torture. cutting someone with a razor and then pouring salt water or alcohol into the wounds is torture.

If you are a POS scumbag who has been caught trying to kill or harm me, my friends, my family, or my country...then you deserve whatever "torture" you get.

tying someone up and pouring water over their face, though uncomfortable (I know, been there done that), is NOT torture. just like putting a pair of panties over a guy's head is not torture.
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Well I am sorry that the UN and the US disagree with you.
 
Ive stayed out of this because this topic frustrates me....and I dont want to debate it anymore...Im done debated out on this topic from months ago when it was on the front burner of every Political site...but im just going to add my worthless 2cts..

Ok Waterboarding is Torture...SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you want me to feel bad for terrorists or muslims that have information that could save american civilians lives and our troops...PFFfffffffffffffffffffffft to that......torture is pulling out someones fingernails...tieing them and hanging them upside down, hosing them down and electro shocking them....torture is not allowing to sleep, torture is starving them with the intent of breaking them down mentally and phsycially...beating them daily over and over...putting them in seclusion in total darkness.....and on and on and on and on......waterboarding is torture pffffffffffft....not to me
 
lpast said:
Ive stayed out of this because this topic frustrates me....and I dont want to debate it anymore...Im done debated out on this topic from months ago when it was on the front burner of every Political site...but im just going to add my worthless 2cts..

Ok Waterboarding is Torture...SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you want me to feel bad for terrorists or muslims that have information that could save american civilians lives and our troops...PFFfffffffffffffffffffffft to that......torture is pulling out someones fingernails...tieing them and hanging them upside down, hosing them down and electro shocking them....torture is not allowing to sleep, torture is starving them with the intent of breaking them down mentally and phsycially...beating them daily over and over...putting them in seclusion in total darkness.....and on and on and on and on......waterboarding is torture pffffffffffft....not to me
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First, no one is feeling sorry for terrorist. I feel sorry for that innocent tax cab driver who was killed, or that fellow from Canada who had the misfortune to have the wrong last name. Rule of law protects the innocent. That is what makes it important.

Second, waterboarding is clearly torture. You not thinking it is largely means you don't really understand what it is.

Now, I understand someone not wanting to enter into the debate. It is an old one and I doubt many will change their minds, sadly. But when you do enter into it, expect a response.
 
OscarB63 said:
I beg to differ. shoving bamboo slivers under someone's fingernails is torture. connecting a field generator to someone's genitals is torture. shoving a glass rod up someone's penis and hitting it with a hammer is torture. shoving boiling turkey eggs up someone's ass is torture. cutting someone with a razor and then pouring salt water or alcohol into the wounds is torture.

tying someone up and pouring water over their face, though uncomfortable (I know, been there done that), is NOT torture. just like putting a pair of panties over a guy's head is not torture.
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You have not been through what those being tortured with have. Those who run SERE program, which I assume you speak of, state clearly that they are not doing the same thing.
 
Boo Radley said:
Second, waterboarding is clearly torture. .
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if waterboarding is clearly torture, then practically every action taken against any criminal anywhere could be considered to be "torture".

that's the problem. the hand-wringing, bed-wetting crowd has dumbed down the definition of "torture" to such a degree that almost anything qualifies.
 
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