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Ohio voters reject Republican-backed union limits

Henrin said:
Taking the money away was a solution I said. The problem with that is it still has to be connected to voting as they will merely vote for the person that gives them everything they need. Its the same problem with doing favors and subsiding business or even passing things to harm business which causes not only business to try to get out to vote against any more of it but other people to get out to get control of business. Same with any sort of chance for people to get some sort of favor in government. My point is unionization in government directly effects how people vote and has to be connected if taking money out of the process is put on the table.
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The point is, politiicans should nto have a financial interest at all, be it form business or workers. Aside from that. workers without any voice at all will likely be abused in one way or another. Speaking as a collective voice is one way the worker has to increase his voice at the barganing table. Government workers should not be handicapped just because they work for the government. Government leaders should be held accountable for doing their job, and not concerned with making money from those they affect.
 
AdamT said:
What it means is that the people of Ohio realized that teachers and firefighters aren't the problem, despite unrelenting efforts by Republicans to demonize them.
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Do you have a link to the Republican Party demonizing teachers and fire fighters?
 
Grant said:
Do you have a link to the Republican Party demonizing teachers and fire fighters?
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Well, on a search, I did find these:

Several education historians have documented ongoing attacks on teachers and the teaching profession at the hands of disproportionately white male administrators and policymakers (Mirel, 1999; Reese, 2005; Tyack, 1974).

The 'New' Disdain for Teachers: A gender analysis of anti-teacher sentiments and union-busting

Did you know that teachers, firemen, police, office workers, IT professionals and mail carriers aren’t actually doing a “real” job?

That’s according to Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA), who told a conservative radio host recently that he’s opposing a national debt limit increase because he believes it wouldn’t affect anyone with a “real job.”

GOP Rep: Gov’t. workers need to ‘find a real job’ | Raw Replay

Of course, you could just listen to Fox for a few seconds to see it:

Stewart satirically showed multiple instances where reporters, talking heads and politicians demand sacrifices from teachers and other public employees in tough economic times, but don't ask the same from Wall Street types. The double-standard was especially poignant in one clip when a Fox reporter pointed out that teachers aren't paid as much as people on Wall Street because they don't work as hard and they have summers off.

Jon Stewart Slams Fox News for Scapegoating Teachers - Education - GOOD
 
Boo Radley said:
The point is, politiicans should nto have a financial interest at all, be it form business or workers. Aside from that. workers without any voice at all will likely be abused in one way or another. Speaking as a collective voice is one way the worker has to increase his voice at the barganing table. Government workers should not be handicapped just because they work for the government. Government leaders should be held accountable for doing their job, and not concerned with making money from those they affect.
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Government workers already have a voice with their employer.
They are voters.

There is no reason to have them unionized and it does not handicap them.
 
lpast said:
Nope wrong..Kasich walked in and this is what im going to do and if you dont get on the bus im running you over...and I dont care who likes it or not....and I dont care if you dont like me...then VOILA after the voters kicked his ass...he bent right over and cared very much...lol....he got exactly what he deserved the moron
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Kasich got what he deserved because the voters went down the wrong path?

How does that effect John Kasich? He is a wealthy man and can always make a good living in many areas. Who got their asses kicked were the short-sighted people of Ohio. This decision can only help other States and let everyone know that Ohio is a poor place to live and invest. Another Detroit is looming.
 
Boo Radley said:
Well, on a search, I did find these:

Stewart satirically showed multiple instances where reporters, talking heads and politicians demand sacrifices from teachers and other public employees in tough economic times, but don't ask the same from Wall Street types. The double-standard was especially poignant in one clip when a Fox reporter pointed out that teachers aren't paid as much as people on Wall Street because they don't work as hard and they have summers off.
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Jon Stewart is a comedian with some bias but who really cares? The evidence is that teachers are doing a bad job, despite the increase in costs over the past decades, and are very difficult to fire. They are, as in the case of Detroit, turning out too many sub-literate people. And that low quality of performance extends to higher education as well. All you have to do is look at the international test scores to see how the US is faring against other nations.

All you have to do is listen to the OWS protesters, and there are a great many students there, to see how inarticulate they are and, overall, not overly bright. They seem to think they are educated because they went to school for a certain number of years, but are obviously not. Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results
 
Grant said:
Jon Stewart is a comedian with some bias but who really cares? The evidence is that teachers are doing a bad job, despite the increase in costs over the past decades, and are very difficult to fire. They are, as in the case of Detroit, turning out too many sub-literate people. And that low quality of performance extends to higher education as well. All you have to do is look at the international test scores to see how the US is faring against other nations.

All you have to do is listen to the OWS protesters, and there are a great many students there, to see how inarticulate they are and, overall, not overly bright. They seem to think they are educated because they went to school for a certain number of years, but are obviously not. Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results
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image.jpg
My favorite picture evah!
 
Grant said:
I can rest my case then.
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I don't think it's as doom and gloom as you make it sound though. There's are some major factors playing. One is the massive disparity in the education students get. When it's averaged it makes us look mediocre but when you take a district in Texas with a lot of first generation Americans and a district from the burbs where education is well funded you end up with a mediocre average.

The the problem with the whole argument "we spend more than we ever have rawr!" There's been significant gains in populations that formally were stinted on education. That's where a lot of the funding is going, former district that had atrocious funding. They are seeing rises in education but when averaged out with the rest of the population the gains don't seem significant.

Like John Edwards said before he imploded...we live in 2 America's. There's a class of citizens that get great educations and every opportunity. There's a lot of Americans that don't. Compare that to the European countries or Asian countries the study compares us too. Most of those are extremely centralized education system. If they raise education funding by 2 mill then that's given out based on population of schools. In America a school with 1k can have much more funding than a school with 5k students. That's why we suck!

It's no different than our healthcare numbers. Great healthcare for some, horrible healthcare for some.
 
iliveonramen said:
I don't think it's as doom and gloom as you make it sound though. There's are some major factors playing. One is the massive disparity in the education students get. When it's averaged it makes us look mediocre but when you take a district in Texas with a lot of first generation Americans and a district from the burbs where education is well funded you end up with a mediocre average.

The the problem with the whole argument "we spend more than we ever have rawr!" There's been significant gains in populations that formally were stinted on education. That's where a lot of the funding is going, former district that had atrocious funding. They are seeing rises in education but when averaged out with the rest of the population the gains don't seem significant.

Like John Edwards said before he imploded...we live in 2 America's. There's a class of citizens that get great educations and every opportunity. There's a lot of Americans that don't. Compare that to the European countries or Asian countries the study compares us too. Most of those are extremely centralized education system. If they raise education funding by 2 mill then that's given out based on population of schools. In America a school with 1k can have much more funding than a school with 5k students. That's why we suck!

It's no different than our healthcare numbers. Great healthcare for some, horrible healthcare for some.
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One way to respond to the disparity in different school districts would be through comparison tests, which the teachers unions don't want. Another way would be to allow more charter schools, which the teacher's unions don't want. There is a thread that links poor education to poor teachers yet the teacher's unions don't appear eager t make any much needed changes.

The United States was always a country of immigrants yet there education system served them well. I don't believe we can just blame immigrants or the problems.

here's a list of countries involved in international scholastic measurements, with a chart near the bottom. You can see that many of these countries have immigrants also, which doesn't seem to be much of a factor. It can be, of course, but it tends to be subordinate to other issues.

Programme for International Student Assessment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Damn right they rejected this...
Maybe the majority of Americans actually dont like those tea party platforms....
Hmmmmmmm :2wave:
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Damn right they rejected this...
Maybe the majority of Americans actually dont like those tea party platforms....
Hmmmmmmm :2wave:
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Or they are just sheep that don't realize the person being abused here is the voter..aka them. Then again, sheep where never known for their intelligence.
 
Henrin said:
Or they are just sheep that don't realize the person being abused here is the voter..aka them. Then again, sheep where never known for their intelligence.
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Ohhhhh of course they are sheep?
Couldnt you be a sheep?
Could i be a sheep?
Could we all be sheep?
hmmmmm

Nice rhetoric...
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Damn right they rejected this...
Maybe the majority of Americans actually dont like those tea party platforms....
Hmmmmmmm :2wave:
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It is a form of self flagellation. Those who voted against it are likely to just move on, though it might be a tough time now to try and sell your home in Ohio.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Damn right they rejected this...
Maybe the majority of Americans actually dont like those tea party platforms....
Hmmmmmmm :2wave:
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The finer points of why this is wrong, typically slip over your head.

It seems that no matter the circumstance, with many people like you is an automatic, union = always good.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
The finer points of why this is wrong, typically slip over your head.

It seems that no matter the circumstance, with many people like you is an automatic, union = always good.
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Soo how is restricting collective bargaining rights for cops, firefighters, teachers and other public employees a "finer point"?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Soo how is restricting collective bargaining rights for cops, firefighters, teachers and other public employees a "finer point"?
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They have a service monopoly and a captive system of fee payments.
The voters, which include the union members, have to pay for these services, whether or not these teachers, firefighters and cops are on strike or not.

Employees in a union with a private business /= public employee unions.
The public employees have a higher duty to provide services, that are democratically decided as necessary to the public, trying to withhold these services through striking should be criminal.

I can't choose not to pay taxes for these services, but the service employees can choose not to work?
Where is the balance and fairness?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Damn right they rejected this...
Maybe the majority of Americans actually dont like those tea party platforms....
Hmmmmmmm :2wave:
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The fact that a majority of people support something doesn't make it right. If it did, we would not need a bill of rights.

The majority can generally be counted on to support sticking it to the minority, especially if it can gain by doing so.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Ohhhhh of course they are sheep?
Couldnt you be a sheep?
Could i be a sheep?
Could we all be sheep?
hmmmmm

Nice rhetoric...
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Read the thread did you? What is happening between the union the government right now? What did I say? The voters going along with it only proves they are as dumb as sheep.
 
Grant said:
Jon Stewart is a comedian with some bias but who really cares? The evidence is that teachers are doing a bad job, despite the increase in costs over the past decades, and are very difficult to fire. They are, as in the case of Detroit, turning out too many sub-literate people. And that low quality of performance extends to higher education as well. All you have to do is look at the international test scores to see how the US is faring against other nations.

All you have to do is listen to the OWS protesters, and there are a great many students there, to see how inarticulate they are and, overall, not overly bright. They seem to think they are educated because they went to school for a certain number of years, but are obviously not. Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results
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Comedian or not, he showed the clips. Bias means nothing. Being a comedian means nothing. The only argument you can actual present is those clips are nto real. If real, the point stands regardless of any whinning.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Government workers already have a voice with their employer.
They are voters.

There is no reason to have them unionized and it does not handicap them.
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Not remotely the same thing. Negotiating for working conditions and pay is much more specific, with different interests. So, no I don't buy your premise in the slightest. Sorry.
 
Grant said:
Jon Stewart is a comedian with some bias but who really cares? The evidence is that teachers are doing a bad job, despite the increase in costs over the past decades, and are very difficult to fire. They are, as in the case of Detroit, turning out too many sub-literate people. And that low quality of performance extends to higher education as well. All you have to do is look at the international test scores to see how the US is faring against other nations.

All you have to do is listen to the OWS protesters, and there are a great many students there, to see how inarticulate they are and, overall, not overly bright. They seem to think they are educated because they went to school for a certain number of years, but are obviously not. Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results
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According to a BLS report from January 2011 almost 63% of workers in education, training, and library occupations are NON union. So why you want to put students poor performance on the union teachers who do not make policy?
 
Dickieboy said:
EERRR, I think you misread. The point was that 'Ohio' would be 'stealing' money from 'working stiffs' (the taxpayers) and giving it to 'public sector union folks'.


Please reduce the level of your 'partisan rhetoric alarm'.
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The private companies STEAL from ALL americans when they give their workers raises and raise the price of their goods...
You like many others leave out that many public workers are SKILLED workers and do jobs many if not most private sector workers cannot do.
You dont walk in the door and become a police officer or fireman just because you want too....You dont become a teacher off the street....The problem is that all of YOU want the private sector that has devalued the working class down to NOTHING on their whim...you want that applied to public workers....instead of running around whining public workers are overpaid how about making corporations pay what they USED to pay...
 
BWG said:
According to a BLS report from January 2011 almost 63% of workers in education, training, and library occupations are NON union. So why you want to put students poor performance on the union teachers who do not make policy?
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Because who they are really complaining about are teachers in general. Unions are just used as a stealth way of doing that.
 
teamosil said:
The message of the voters is 100% clear- they won't tolerate trying to put the whole deficit just on the backs of the middle class. If Republicans in the state ignore that and just ram ahead with a different mechanism to accomplish the same thing, their days of being a serious party in Ohio would be over. I doubt they'll be that dumb. No, they need to find a solution to the deficit that requires everybody to chip it- rich and middle class alike.
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the richest one percent, the richest 5 percent pay more of the federal income tax burden now than at any point in the last 7 decades. Seems to me that group is paying enough
 
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