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Health care law held constitutional in latest appeals court ruling

AdamT said:
Trains make sense in some locations and not in others. Amtrak's high speed line in the NE is profitable.
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Care to prove that.

In the right location and with the right design, trains are the most efficient form of transporation available. They are hugely successful in Europe.
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Again, this needs proof.

On a sidenote, you actually like the idea of being herded around? I don't, but to each his own.
 
Henrin said:
How would I get a gun if I didn't want to leave the country? How would everyday people get access? If people can't buy what they want they will just get it illegally and that will just raise crime rates including murder. Not everyone can just pick up and leave the country all the time. What you're saying just isn't that reasonable.
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Do you really think anti-gun advocates care? They're already convinced that guns are the problem and not the criminals themselves. Or at least they believe that getting rid of guns (or the ability to get them at least) would curtail crime rates.

How would a person that is too poor to get health insurance on thier own and yet to rich to qualify for federal/state assitance going to get health insurance? Do you think that it will matter come tax time and they get taxed *cough fined cough* for not having insurance?

If they allow Obamacare to stand based upon the Commerce Clause then I would bet anyone that eventually something like what I have stated will happen. It won't happen today or tommarow or even within the next decade. It might not even happen with guns rights but instead some other right that we are accorded or it might happen in a different way. But it will happen. It is the nature of governments and humans that want power over others. History is replete with this proof. The Boston Tea Party happened because the then current government taxed the hell out of the colonies because it was one of the best ways to keep the colonies under control...or so they thought. Slavery is another example of governments and humans wanting control over other humans. Wars were fought in order to control land and people.
 
Henrin said:
Care to prove that.

Again, this needs proof.

On a sidenote, you actually like the idea of being herded around? I don't, but to each his own.
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The only way to prove which is preferred would be for both to be provided as businesses on the free market. The market does not allow unwanted products to survive for very long.

Without a market to prove the value of each, arguing which is preferred is just useless talk.
 
Trains make sense in some locations and not in others. Amtrak's high speed line in the NE is profitable.
Click to expand...

Care to prove that.
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Sure.

"Boardman, the Amtrak president, said his company’s critics make a “great hullabaloo” over its government support, but the system’s revenue covers 85 percent of its overall operating costs. The Acela Express [NE high speed line] makes a 40 percent profit, and the other Northeast Corridor trains break even, he said. Government subsidies are necessary for almost all capital improvements."

Amtrak faces congestion and criticism as it celebrates 40 years of service - The Washington Post

The Acela line appears to turn a profit even taking capital improvements into consideration: Is the Northeast Corridor really profitable? - Fred Frailey - Trains Magazine - Online Community: Forums and Blogs


In the right location and with the right design, trains are the most efficient form of transporation available. They are hugely successful in Europe.
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Again, this needs proof.
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As far as efficiency goes, it appears that motorcycles and plugin hybrids win out over all, but I believe that wouldn't be the case if they only looked at newer, more efficient trains. Energy Use of Different Modes of Transport {Infographic} | CleanTechnica

As far as trains in Europe goes ... well ... visit Europe or talk to someone who has.

On a sidenote, you actually like the idea of being herded around? I don't, but to each his own.
 
Kal'Stang said:
No you're not. You can already have a gun or you can have a gun given to you. Besides, buying a gun and owning a gun is two different things. Example, a felon is not allowed to buy guns though they can certainly own one.
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While I mostly support your arguments, there is a falsehood in your statement here. Convicted Felons are prohibited from owning or handling firearms also. Of course, the fact that it is illegal doesn't seem to hinder them if they decide to have a gun.

Also, one outcome of the SCOTUS upholding a commerce clause law against the buying and selling of guns would be that millions of Americans who believe in guns will load their firearms, go to Washington DC and explain to SCOTUS the error of their ways. At which time, the ruling will be reversed or the sitting President will get to appoint a new SCOTUS, this of course assumes that said President wasn't the one who signed the law, otherwise same said armed Americans might decide it is time for a new President as well and then move on to Congress and explain to them the errors of their ways also.

If the Heath Care Reform law gets upheld, I also know quite a few people who plan to pay their "fine" in installments of small pieces of lead. Whether or not they actually do so will have to wait until the SOTUS rules on the issue. Armed Americans standing up to Tyranny from their government is the motivating factor behind including the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights. There are quite a few Americans today that think the socialist left have pushed things about as far as they should be allowed to.
 
Henrin said:
Care to prove that.



Again, this needs proof.
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Acela Express - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Acela Express is one of the few Amtrak lines to operate at a profit; the two train lines generate more than half of Amtrak's total revenue.
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As for Europe, he's right. Anyone who's been to Europe can testify to that. For instance, the rail company Eurostar, which serves Great Britain, France, and Belgium, has more passengers than the airlines that serve similar routes.

So yes, depending on the geography, trains make more sense in some places than others. I'm not sure why you would dispute this.

On a sidenote, you actually like the idea of being herded around? I don't, but to each his own.
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Out of curiosity, Henrin, are you one of those folks who likes to drive long-distance? Pretty much every other form of long-distance transport these days involves being "herded around."
 
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DVSentinel said:
While I mostly support your arguments, there is a falsehood in your statement here. Convicted Felons are prohibited from owning or handling firearms also. Of course, the fact that it is illegal doesn't seem to hinder them if they decide to have a gun.

Also, one outcome of the SCOTUS upholding a commerce clause law against the buying and selling of guns would be that millions of Americans who believe in guns will load their firearms, go to Washington DC and explain to SCOTUS the error of their ways. At which time, the ruling will be reversed or the sitting President will get to appoint a new SCOTUS, this of course assumes that said President wasn't the one who signed the law, otherwise same said armed Americans might decide it is time for a new President as well and then move on to Congress and explain to them the errors of their ways also.

If the Heath Care Reform law gets upheld, I also know quite a few people who plan to pay their "fine" in installments of small pieces of lead. Whether or not they actually do so will have to wait until the SOTUS rules on the issue. Armed Americans standing up to Tyranny from their government is the motivating factor behind including the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights. There are quite a few Americans today that think the socialist left have pushed things about as far as they should be allowed to.
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That post is a great argument for gun control.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Acela Express - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



As for Europe, he's right. Anyone who's been to Europe can testify to that. For instance, the rail company Eurostar, which serves Great Britain, France, and Belgium, has more passengers than the airlines that serve similar routes.

So yes, depending on the geography, trains make more sense in some places than others. I'm not sure why you would dispute this.



Out of curiosity, Henrin, are you one of those folks who likes to drive long-distance? Pretty much every other form of long-distance transport these days involves being "herded around."
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When ilived in NYC I loved the trains. I could be in DC in about 3 hours and not deal with the hassle and expense of the airports.
 
SheWolf said:
When the government provides us equally accessible transportation options, such as high speed rail or even an equal amount of private roads lol :roll:... then I'll agree with you 100%. But as of now, many many people don't have any other option to travel to and from work on a daily basis.
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Just because you don't like the options doesn't mean you don't have options.
 
AdamT said:
That post is a great argument for gun control.
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Gun Control--being able to accurately hit your selected target.

Supporting a Gun Ban--Wanting to take away everyones guns because you are afraid you or your preferred political group may be their selected targets.

So you prefer Tyranny over armed revolt to prevent it? To each his own, but you might want to consider where we would be if our fore-fathers hadn't used armed revolt against Tyranny.
 
DVSentinel said:
Gun Control--being able to accurately hit your selected target.

Supporting a Gun Ban--Wanting to take away everyones guns because you are afraid you or your preferred political group may be their selected targets.

So you prefer Tyranny over armed revolt to prevent it? To each his own, but you might want to consider where we would be if our fore-fathers hadn't used armed revolt against Tyranny.
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Just saying that threats of assassination and armed uprising are perhaps not the best strategy for an advocate of gun rights.

My view is that this is a non issue. The SC has ruled and it's clear that the government cannot take away your guns even if it wanted to (which it doesn't).
 
DVSentinel said:
While I mostly support your arguments, there is a falsehood in your statement here. Convicted Felons are prohibited from owning or handling firearms also. Of course, the fact that it is illegal doesn't seem to hinder them if they decide to have a gun.
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You're right. A felon cannot legally own a gun. But as you said, that doesn't hinder them if they decide to.

DVSentinel said:
Also, one outcome of the SCOTUS upholding a commerce clause law against the buying and selling of guns would be that millions of Americans who believe in guns will load their firearms, go to Washington DC and explain to SCOTUS the error of their ways. At which time, the ruling will be reversed or the sitting President will get to appoint a new SCOTUS, this of course assumes that said President wasn't the one who signed the law, otherwise same said armed Americans might decide it is time for a new President as well and then move on to Congress and explain to them the errors of their ways also.
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If our government continues on its course I have no doubt that this may happen.

DVSentinel said:
If the Heath Care Reform law gets upheld, I also know quite a few people who plan to pay their "fine" in installments of small pieces of lead. Whether or not they actually do so will have to wait until the SOTUS rules on the issue. Armed Americans standing up to Tyranny from their government is the motivating factor behind including the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights. There are quite a few Americans today that think the socialist left have pushed things about as far as they should be allowed to.
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Honestly there's not much I can say to this.
 
UtahBill said:
I want car and home insurance requirements repealed. If requiring health care insurance is bad, then those must be bad as well.

I also want employers to stop offering health insurance and pension plans. Lets go all the way conservative, everybody is on his own. This is the onlly way to stop this creeping socialism that threatens to turn us into a nation of dependents, all sucking the teats of government.

So, is UtahBill being sarcastic, or not?
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I want all liberals to be separated from all conservatives. I want two distinct, political societies, where people will have a clear choice. I want all Americans, everywhere, to witness which side will be the easy choice for foreign invasion; to witness which side will enjoy aggressive tax hikes, an extremely modest private sector, and perpetual government programs such as road construction projects with street cones as far as the eye can see..... a liberal utopia.
 
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Sunbelt said:
I want all liberals to be separated from all conservatives. I want two distinct, political societies, where people will have a clear choice. I want all Americans, everywhere, to witness which side will be the easy choice for foreign invasion; to witness which side will enjoy aggressive tax hikes, an extremely modest private sector, and perpetual government programs such as road construction projects with street cones as far as the eye can see..... a liberal utopia.
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I would rather have an open, honest, society. One where people actually work together instead of against each other for personal gain. What you want, a seperate two party nation, leads to nothing.
 
Kal'Stang said:
I would rather have an open, honest, society. One where people actually work together instead of against each other for personal gain. What you want, a seperate two party nation, leads to nothing.
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I'd argue it leads to war.
 
Sunbelt said:
I want all liberals to be separated from all conservatives. I want two distinct, political societies, where people will have a clear choice. I want all Americans, everywhere, to witness which side will be the easy choice for foreign invasion; to witness which side will enjoy aggressive tax hikes, an extremely modest private sector, and perpetual government programs such as road construction projects with street cones as far as the eye can see..... a liberal utopia.
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I don't think that would work out quite how you are picturing...

States by median income:
# 1 New Jersey: $61,359.00
# 2 Connecticut: $60,528.00
# 3 Maryland: $57,424.00
# 4 Alaska: $57,027.00
# 5 Massachusetts: $55,658.00
# 6 New Hampshire: $55,580.00
# 7 Hawaii: $53,554.00
# 8 Virginia: $51,689.00
# 9 California: $51,185.00
# 10 Minnesota: $50,860.00
# 11 Delaware: $50,315.00
# 12 Illinois: $48,953.00
# 13 Rhode Island: $48,722.00
# 14 Colorado: $48,198.00
# 15 Washington: $47,659.00
# 16 New York: $47,349.00
# 17 Utah: $47,074.00
# 18 District of Columbia: $46,574.00
# 19 Vermont: $46,543.00
# 20 Wisconsin: $45,315.00
# 21 Michigan: $44,905.00
# 22 Nevada: $44,646.00
# 23 Wyoming: $44,275.00
# 24 Georgia: $43,037.00
# 25 Pennsylvania: $42,941.00
# 26 Ohio: $42,240.00
# 27 Indiana: $42,195.00
# 28 Maine: $42,163.00
# 29 Arizona: $41,995.00
# 30 Oregon: $41,794.00
# 31 Texas: $41,759.00
# 32 Nebraska: $41,657.00
# 33 Kansas: $41,638.00
# 34 Missouri: $41,473.00
# 35 Iowa: $41,350.00
# 36 Florida: $41,236.00
# 37 Idaho: $39,934.00
# 38 South Carolina: $39,837.00
# 39 North Dakota: $39,447.00
# 40 North Carolina: $39,428.00
# 41 Tennessee: $38,794.00
# 42 South Dakota: $38,472.00
# 43 Alabama: $36,709.00
# 44 New Mexico: $36,043.00
# 45 Oklahoma: $35,357.00
# 46 Kentucky: $35,269.00
# 47 Montana: $35,239.00
# 48 Louisiana: $35,110.00
# 49 Arkansas: $32,983.00
# 50 Mississippi: $31,642.00
# 51 West Virginia: $31,504.00

Median Household Income statistics - states compared - StateMaster Economy


Top 10 biggest net contributors to the federal government:
New Jersey 55%
Connecticut 66%
New Hampshire 67%
Minnesota 69%
Illinois 73%
Nevada 73%
Massachusetts 77%
California 79%
Colorado 79%
New York 79%
(the percentage is the percentage of every dollar in federal taxes paid that gets spent in that state)


Top 10 biggest withdrawers from the federal government:
South Dakota 149%
Montana 158%
Hawaii 160%
Virginia 166%
Alabama 171%
North Dakota 173%
Mississippi 177%
West Virginia 183%
Alaska 187%
New Mexico 200%
 
Connecticut, Vermont Move Forward on Their Own Health Care Options
"With talk of repealing health care in the air, I thought it would be a good time to look at a couple New England states going in the opposite direction: Vermont and Connecticut. Both of them are in the midst of designing or recommending alternatives to the private health care market, which could go all the way up to a single payer program."

I wonder why more states didn't take Obama up on the 'out' he provided to states as an alternative to the Republican idea for insurance mandates?

"Section 1302 of the Senate bill does this directly. The provision is entitled "the Waiver for State Innovation," and it gives states the power to junk the whole of the health-care plan -- that means the individual mandate, the Medicaid expansion, all of it -- if they can do it better and cheaper."
Ezra Klein - The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill
 
Kal'Stang said:
I would rather have an open, honest, society. One where people actually work together instead of against each other for personal gain. What you want, a seperate two party nation, leads to nothing.
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No, what I want is a separation of two parties into two nations. Liberals are impossible to live with. ;)
 
Sunbelt said:
No, what I want is a separation of two parties into two nations. Liberals are impossible to live with. ;)
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That would be even more idiotic. No offense. But its true. How would you uphold such a thing? As time passes the once total conservative nation would become riddled with liberals and visa versa with the liberal nation.

Also..how would you make such a nation? Take away a liberals/conservatives property and force them to move to the "liberal/conservative side"?

Who gets to determine what is liberal and what is not?

How would you handle those people that are liberal in only some aspects and conservative in other aspects? Make three nations?
 
teamosil said:
I don't think that would work out quite how you are picturing...

States by median income:
# 1 New Jersey: $61,359.00
# 2 Connecticut: $60,528.00
# 3 Maryland: $57,424.00
# 4 Alaska: $57,027.00
# 5 Massachusetts: $55,658.00
# 6 New Hampshire: $55,580.00
# 7 Hawaii: $53,554.00
# 8 Virginia: $51,689.00
# 9 California: $51,185.00
# 10 Minnesota: $50,860.00
# 11 Delaware: $50,315.00
# 12 Illinois: $48,953.00
# 13 Rhode Island: $48,722.00
# 14 Colorado: $48,198.00
# 15 Washington: $47,659.00
# 16 New York: $47,349.00
# 17 Utah: $47,074.00
# 18 District of Columbia: $46,574.00
# 19 Vermont: $46,543.00
# 20 Wisconsin: $45,315.00
# 21 Michigan: $44,905.00
# 22 Nevada: $44,646.00
# 23 Wyoming: $44,275.00
# 24 Georgia: $43,037.00
# 25 Pennsylvania: $42,941.00
# 26 Ohio: $42,240.00
# 27 Indiana: $42,195.00
# 28 Maine: $42,163.00
# 29 Arizona: $41,995.00
# 30 Oregon: $41,794.00
# 31 Texas: $41,759.00
# 32 Nebraska: $41,657.00
# 33 Kansas: $41,638.00
# 34 Missouri: $41,473.00
# 35 Iowa: $41,350.00
# 36 Florida: $41,236.00
# 37 Idaho: $39,934.00
# 38 South Carolina: $39,837.00
# 39 North Dakota: $39,447.00
# 40 North Carolina: $39,428.00
# 41 Tennessee: $38,794.00
# 42 South Dakota: $38,472.00
# 43 Alabama: $36,709.00
# 44 New Mexico: $36,043.00
# 45 Oklahoma: $35,357.00
# 46 Kentucky: $35,269.00
# 47 Montana: $35,239.00
# 48 Louisiana: $35,110.00
# 49 Arkansas: $32,983.00
# 50 Mississippi: $31,642.00
# 51 West Virginia: $31,504.00

Median Household Income statistics - states compared - StateMaster Economy


Top 10 biggest net contributors to the federal government:
New Jersey 55%
Connecticut 66%
New Hampshire 67%
Minnesota 69%
Illinois 73%
Nevada 73%
Massachusetts 77%
California 79%
Colorado 79%
New York 79%
(the percentage is the percentage of every dollar in federal taxes paid that gets spent in that state)


Top 10 biggest withdrawers from the federal government:
South Dakota 149%
Montana 158%
Hawaii 160%
Virginia 166%
Alabama 171%
North Dakota 173%
Mississippi 177%
West Virginia 183%
Alaska 187%
New Mexico 200%
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OK, first of all, you give no indication as to who the actual wage earners are -- there could be more republicans than democrats as top earners in those states -- and second, your list does nothing to rebut the foreign invasion, aggressive tax hikes and mind numbing road construction projects that I mentioned in the original post.
 
Kal'Stang said:
That would be even more idiotic.
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No, it wouldn't. The idea itself would be a dream come true, but the prospect is impossible. This whole line of thinking was a spoof of sorts in response to one of UtahBill's ridiculous demands in an earlier post.

Kal'Stang said:
No offense.
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None taken. You were talking from a place of ignorance to begin with, so how could you possibly offend me?
 
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Kal'Stang said:
I would rather have an open, honest, society. One where people actually work together instead of against each other for personal gain. What you want, a seperate two party nation, leads to nothing.
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Greater State rights would go a long way in solving that problem rather than the growth in the federal government overwhelming the individual States.
 
Sunbelt said:
OK, first of all, you give no indication as to who the actual wage earners are -- there could be more republicans than democrats as top earners in those states -- and second, your list does nothing to rebut the foreign invasion, aggressive tax hikes and mind numbing road construction projects that I mentioned in the original post.
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What it tells you is that liberal policy works a lot better than conservative policy economically. The blue states are thriving with their higher taxes and greater social spending while the red states are falling behind with their low taxes and crippling lack of investment in their population. The lesson is that when you don't invest much in keeping your society strong, you undercut your future.
 
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