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Occupy Oakland protesters remove barricade at port entrance

j-mac said:
Why should they get to do it, when I have to obtain a permit and jump through hoops?


j-mac
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It depends on what sort of threat you could potentially be. Sure you want everyone to follow the laws as much as possible, but you also have to think about consequence before you act. Oakland isn't exactly known for it's reason and logic; that place will blow up at a touch of a hat. Well I suppose maybe one could argue that we should force it to...a controlled burn sort of thing. But that's a bit depressing considering that we're talking about human lives here. Cops and protesters a like. I think that the best thing would be to try to minimize, preferably eliminate, any possible causalities.
 
j-mac said:
And I guess you are ok with mobs taking over and attacking police, and destroying commerce.

j-mac
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While I would love to discuss the destruction of commerce, the loss of jobs, and mobs, this is not place for a Wal Mart discussion
 
Ikari said:
It depends on what sort of threat you could potentially be. Sure you want everyone to follow the laws as much as possible, but you also have to think about consequence before you act. Oakland isn't exactly known for it's reason and logic; that place will blow up at a touch of a hat. Well I suppose maybe one could argue that we should force it to...a controlled burn sort of thing. But that's a bit depressing considering that we're talking about human lives here. Cops and protesters a like. I think that the best thing would be to try to minimize, preferably eliminate, any possible causalities.
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Still doesn't answer why you think it acceptable for one group exercising free speech the proper way, and legally, and seem to give more credence to the group breaking the law and calling for violence in this side by side...Why is that?

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Still doesn't answer why you think it acceptable for one group exercising free speech the proper way, and legally, and seem to give more credence to the group breaking the law and calling for violence in this side by side...Why is that?

j-mac
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I think that if you wanted to assemble on the part without "permit" and protest, you should be free to do so. I would defend your right in that manner the same as anyone else. If you've heard many of my arguments on this board, you know I have not the most favorable opinion of "permits" for rights.
 
Ikari said:
I think that if you wanted to assemble on the part without "permit" and protest, you should be free to do so. I would defend your right in that manner the same as anyone else. If you've heard many of my arguments on this board, you know I have not the most favorable opinion of "permits" for rights.
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Permits serve a purpose. They ensure that all the proper services, and tools like restrooms, police protection, clean up, and civility of surrounding neighbors is followed....This happens in a civil society. And you are against that?

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Permits serve a purpose. They ensure that all the proper services, and tools like restrooms, police protection, clean up, and civility of surrounding neighbors is followed....This happens in a civil society. And you are against that?

j-mac
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When it usurps the right to peacably assemble then it is wrong. You should need permit to do contracted stuff. Not for a bunches of people spontaneously gathering for what ever cause. If 1 solo entity (a person) wants to use lots of public space they should need a permit. But not tons of solo people just deciding to show up at town hall.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
When it usurps the right to peacably assemble then it is wrong. You should need permit to do contracted stuff. Not for a bunches of people spontaneously gathering for what ever cause. If 1 solo entity (a person) wants to use lots of public space they should need a permit. But not tons of solo people just deciding to show up at town hall.
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But that is apples to oranges when talking of OWS. this was NOT spontaneous.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
But that is apples to oranges when talking of OWS. this was NOT spontaneous.


j-mac
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Sure seems like tons of people showing up of free will to me. Oh wait.. you think they are ALL paid? Each person that is there wanted to go. Its not like they held a concert there to rally in anyone they could. It was just a gathering of people.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Sure seems like tons of people showing up of free will to me. Oh wait.. you think they are ALL paid? Each person that is there wanted to go. Its not like they held a concert there to rally in anyone they could. It was just a gathering of people.
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Yes, it was so spontaneous that it showed up on the scene with its own newspaper, and its own billionaire to support them in the form of Soros....pfft...


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Permits serve a purpose. They ensure that all the proper services, and tools like restrooms, police protection, clean up, and civility of surrounding neighbors is followed....This happens in a civil society. And you are against that?

j-mac
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I know the purpose. But from a purely philosophical stand point it is illogical to ask government permission to exercise a right.
 
Higgins86 said:
Fair play to these protesters at least they are being heard and trying to make a stand. What did we do back in 2008 we sat on our hands and complained about it behind our TV/laptop screen like we are doing now. I give them props for having some balls.
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The only thing these clowns have is a severe case of cranium rectal insertion. They left their balls in their mommies basement.
 
Ikari said:
I know the purpose. But from a purely philosophical stand point it is illogical to ask government permission to exercise a right.
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I'll leave philosophy to the great minds. Rarely does anyone on these boards including myself display any such qualifications.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Permits serve a purpose. They ensure that all the proper services, and tools like restrooms, police protection, clean up, and civility of surrounding neighbors is followed....This happens in a civil society. And you are against that?

j-mac
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I totally agree. Without permits any mob could shutdown commerce, depriving people of their right to earn a living or run a business. Mobs could also takeover urban areas and make them unsafe and unsanitary for everyone, not just those in the mob. Permits don't prevent single individuals from protesting, it makes mobs follow rules so that individual rights and liberties are infringed upon. The Constitution protects the rights of individuals, not mobs.
 
Ikari said:
I know the purpose. But from a purely philosophical stand point it is illogical to ask government permission to exercise a right.
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Permit laws come from local governments that are elected by the people to establish rules for their community. If a person doesn't like said laws they can work with the politicians to change them or they can leave the community. Permuting laws can also be ruled unConstitutional if they are overbearing and truly limit the ability of people to assemble.
 
conservativeguy said:
I totally agree. Without permits any mob could shutdown commerce, depriving people of their right to earn a living or run a business. Mobs could also takeover urban areas and make them unsafe and unsanitary for everyone, not just those in the mob. Permits don't prevent single individuals from protesting, it makes mobs follow rules so that individual rights and liberties are infringed upon. The Constitution protects the rights of individuals, not mobs.
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So now on top of "We cant peacably assemble when the grass is green." "We cant peacably assemble when the scary bad moon is out and the sun is gone." It is also "We cant peacably assemble when too many people want to"
 
dirtpoorchris said:
So now on top of "We cant peacably assemble when the grass is green." "We cant peacably assemble when the scary bad moon is out and the sun is gone." It is also "We cant peacably assemble when too many people want to"
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Way to totally take out of context what was said, and build a strawman argument. Who said what you typed?


j-mac
 
Ikari said:
I know the purpose. But from a purely philosophical stand point it is illogical to ask government permission to exercise a right.
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I have a right to pee, but if I am in someone else's house, I for damn sure ask permission, first.

Make no mistake, when you are on public property, you are in "someone else's house". Sure, it's partly YOUR house too, but only a small fraction, and it's still up to the caretaker, the government, to decide what is best for that property. That's what you, and all the other tax payers PAY them to do.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
So now on top of "We cant peacably assemble when the grass is green." "We cant peacably assemble when the scary bad moon is out and the sun is gone." It is also "We cant peacably assemble when too many people want to"
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Seriously? Feel free to link your rant to my posted words.
 
toomuchtime_ said:
OWS is today what it always was, a temper tantrum by angry confused people. While some people may still share their anger about "corporate greed" and the inequality of wealth, it is clear that OWS does not represent an agenda for change and never did.
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Their agenda has been to remove wallstreet's influence over american politics.
 
conservativeguy said:
Seriously? Feel free to link your rant to my posted words.
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Now you are the one strawman'n. Peacable assemblers disbanded from public because grass is too green, freshly sodded grass. City deems peacable assemblers cant stay over night, must be that scary moon. And now (you) say they cant peacably assemble if too many want too. (your definition is "the mob")
 
conservativeguy said:
Permit laws come from local governments that are elected by the people to establish rules for their community. If a person doesn't like said laws they can work with the politicians to change them or they can leave the community. Permuting laws can also be ruled unConstitutional if they are overbearing and truly limit the ability of people to assemble.
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Of course they can. But considering what a right is, some innate and inalienable ability off limits to government, it seems hard to justify then asking government's permission (which is what a permit is) to exercise it.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Now you are the one strawman'n. Peacable assemblers disbanded from public because grass is too green, freshly sodded grass. City deems peacable assemblers cant stay over night, must be that scary moon. And now (you) say they cant peacably assemble if too many want too. (your definition is "the mob")
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Where did I express my opinion on specific permit regulations, conditions or locations? Did I say people can't assemble on grass, nighttime or scary moon phases (I need some help on when these occur).
 
KevinKohler said:
I have a right to pee, but if I am in someone else's house, I for damn sure ask permission, first.

Make no mistake, when you are on public property, you are in "someone else's house". Sure, it's partly YOUR house too, but only a small fraction, and it's still up to the caretaker, the government, to decide what is best for that property. That's what you, and all the other tax payers PAY them to do.
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Public property is public. I may help pay to maintain it, but I'll also won't come down of folk for practicing their rights upon it. I have a similar view of religious displays on public land. If you want to, you should be free to do so. So long as the courts or legislature are not acting be edicts of gods, but rather edicts of man it doesn't matter.

My goals have always remained the same, maximization of freedom.
 
conservativeguy said:
Where did I express my opinion on specific permit regulations, conditions or locations? Did I say people can't assemble on grass, nighttime or scary moon phases (I need some help on when these occur).
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Common... I know you can understand things without someone having to spell every little iota out.

lions.jpg
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Now you are the one strawman'n. Peacable assemblers disbanded from public because grass is too green, freshly sodded grass. City deems peacable assemblers cant stay over night, must be that scary moon. And now (you) say they cant peacably assemble if too many want too. (your definition is "the mob")
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You are an example of lying by omission.

They were not "disbanded" they were asked to move to the OTHER section of the park. They were not denied the ability to assemble, they just couldn't assemble THERE.
You are talking about Boston.
 
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