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ABC's "20/20 - Lessons from Billionaires: Tax ME to create jobs IN AMERICA!"

1Perry said:
They can not create self sustainable jobs. O.K., maybe they can create a forest ranger who is paid with camping fee's but I shouldn't have to pay to stay somewhere I already own.

They can in the large picture only create jobs that are paid by forcibly taking from others.
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Granted, but here's the rub...NOBODY on your side of the political divide seemed to have a problem with this when Lincoln, FDR, JFK or Reagan did it then. Why should they have such a heartburn when Obama tries to do it now? Is it just because his policies are, in fact, wrong or is it because instead of taking from the poor to give advantages to the rich he is instead asking the rich to provide more so that the poor can stop being so poor?

Look at the President's jobs plan again...it closes tax loopholes both sides agree with and gives NOTHING to entitlement programs. Every tax increase goes towards creating jobs! Now, go back and watch the segment of the video of the billionaire who married the former Playboy model and listen to what he said, "[paraphrase] I don't have a problem with paying more taxes as long as my money doesn't get wasted." Where's the waste in leveraging 'other people's money' to help create jobs in this country? What you call a "hand-out", most entreprenuers would just consider "diversification" or making a sound investment. Thus, I can certainly understand their push for tax credits for "investing in job growth" by "lending" the government their money. But once that investment has been paid back, it's time to halt that tax break. Retaining such indifinately, i.e., subsidies for big oil, doesn't do the overall economy much good.
 
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Objective Voice said:
Granted, but here's the rub...NOBODY on your side of the political divide seemed to have a problem with this when Lincoln, FDR, JFK or Reagan did it then.
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Just a heads up. I refuse to speak for everyone. If you want to know what I believe I'm more than happy to speak on that.

Why should they have such a heartburn when Obama tries to do it now? Is it just because his policies are, in fact, wrong or is it because instead of taking from the poor to give advantages to the rich he is instead asking the rich to provide more so that the poor can stop being so poor?
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The government is going to pay some people to do work. The military for one. Only the very, very, fringe believe that the military should end. Despite the claims by some, nobody wants do completely away with public educators. I'm fine with paying the wages of those who answer my questions at the Smithsonian Institute and gaurd the president.

The point is, addressing high unemployment with more government employee's is not the answer.

Look at the President's jobs plan again...it closes tax loopholes both sides agree with and gives NOTHING to entitlement programs. Every tax increase goes towards creating jobs! Now, go back and watch the segment of the video of the billionaire who married the former Playboy model and listen to what he said, "[paraphrase] I don't have a problem with paying more taxes as long as my money doesn't get wasted." Where's the waste in leveraging 'other people's money' to help create jobs in this country? What you call a "hand-out", most entreprenuers would just consider "diversification" or making a sound investment. Thus, I can certainly understand their push for tax credits for "investing in job growth" by "lending" the government their money. But once that investment has been paid back, it's time to halt that tax break. Retaining such indifinately, i.e., subsidies for big oil, doesn't do the overall economy much good.
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Obama's jobs plan spends, spends, spends......other people's money that could be used to boost sustainable jobs.
 
apdst said:
For the gazillionth time: The government can't create jobs.
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/wave Boeing and the military industrial complex for not being "real jobs"....
 
1Perry said:
Just a heads up. I refuse to speak for everyone. If you want to know what I believe I'm more than happy to speak on that.
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I apologize if you feel I've lumped you in with others rhetorically. That wasn't my intent. I was speaking to the broader "you" on the Right.

The government is going to pay some people to do work....

The point is, addressing high unemployment with more government employee's is not the answer.
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That's not what the President's jobs plan calls for. Except for teachers in the public education system, police and firefighters - jobs that can be classified as "public employees" at local or state levels of government - the other jobs outlined in the President's jobs plan would all be created in the private sector which would also include teachers in privately funded schools. These jobs don't have to be sustainable; they just have to bridge the gap until the country is able to get back on its feet. Infrastructure jobs, for example, can remain public works projects for the next 2-3 years. By then, we could see an up-tick in our country's economic sustainability. But people have to stop thinking in such short-term measures and try to see both the short and long-term gains.
 
Objective Voice said:
I apologize if you feel I've lumped you in with others rhetorically. That wasn't my intent. I was speaking to the broader "you" on the Right.
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Sorry, I now realize my post may have come off rougher than meant.

That's not what the President's jobs plan calls for. Except for teachers in the public education system, police and firefighters - jobs that can be classified as "public employees" at local or state levels of government - the other jobs outlined in the President's jobs plan would all be created in the private sector which would also include teachers in privately funded schools. These jobs don't have to be sustainable; they just have to bridge the gap until the country is able to get back on its feet. Infrastructure jobs, for example, can remain public works projects for the next 2-3 years. By then, we could see an up-tick in our country's economic sustainability. But people have to stop thinking in such short-term measures and try to see both the short and long-term gains.
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Sorry, I do not believe you address a real problem (debt) by adding even more debt. Your arguement is the same one used 2-3 years ago. I understand your arguement, I just completely disagree with it. If the government takes more money and spends more money the public is going to spend less and less. Yes, there will be some jobs filled but they will be offset by less public spending. We don't address our debt and stagnate like we are currently doing. Obama's plan is simply more of the same.
 
Paschendale said:
No, there's just a law saying that the IRS has to take exactly what you owe, no more and no less. So no, no one is actually able to increase their taxes at will.
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Wrong. People can take no deductions and presto.....they made a contribution.
 
Thunder said:
governments create jobs all the time.
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Sitting around all day playing on the Internet instead of doing any productive work, and collecting a government paycheck for doing so, doesn't really count as a “job”. It's really just a handout to a lazy parasite, paid for by taxes forcibly taken from people who work at real jobs, doing real work, and creating real wealth and value.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Sitting around all day playing on the Internet instead of doing any productive work, and collecting a government paycheck for doing so, doesn't really count as a “job”. It's really just a handout to a lazy parasite, paid for by taxes forcibly taken from people who work at real jobs, doing real work, and creating real wealth and value.
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again, govt. creates jobs all the time. my city creates lots of jobs.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Yes, we know what kind of “jobs” your city creates. I think that proves my point.
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yes, my city creates jobs planting trees, cleaning parks, supervising contruction work, caring for the old and the poor, policing out streets, designing buldings/roads/parks/highways/schools, removing garbage, fighting fires, etc etc.

more than 250,000 jobs in NYC...all created by govt.
 
Thunder said:
yes, my city creates jobs planting trees, cleaning parks, supervising contruction work, caring for the old and the poor, policing out streets, designing buldings/roads/parks/highways/schools, removing garbage, fighting fires, etc etc.

more than 250,000 jobs in NYC...all created by govt.
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So what is your job? We see you on this forum all day, during work hours, obviously spending too much time here to possibly be getting any work done for your city. What are you supposed to be doing?

Wouldn't the money that is being used to pay you to sit around all day and play on the Internet do a lot more good in the private sector, where it could be used to pay a real worker to do real work?
 
The govt creates millions of jobs from the small local town to the cities to the states to the federal govt....they are the only jobs paying a decent wage and affording their employees with a degree of security for their families...and because of this the Teaparty far right HATES THEM and wants them crushed. They dont want any comparisons to the rape that has been perpetrated on the working class in the private sector by the pigs at the trough. They dont want the private sector workers WAKING UP and shedding their fear and fighting back. Every teaparty supported gov that won in NOV attacked public workers...vilified them and took from them and either gave to the rich and corporations or tried too and failed....and thats what guaranteed that the gop can no longer be guaranteed my vote.
 
Thunder said:
please do not personalize threads or arguments. I stated that govt. created jobs, and they do. many many jobs. this is a fact.
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Your refusal to give a straight answer should surprise no one.

Fort the record, I'll state what it is that I am supposed to be doing at my job, and I challenge you or anyone else to come up with any credible evidence that I am doing anything but that when I am at work.

I work in the Shipping department of a factory. I move product around, from the assembly line to the warehouse, from the warehouse to the loading dock, or into trucks that will take it to our customers. I do most of this work with a forklift, though some involves getting off my forklift and moving individual cases from one pallet to another.

I do this from 14:00 to 22:30 Pacific time, every weekday, minus a short meeting at the start of each shift, two 20-minute breaks, and a 40-minute lunch break.


What about you? All the time that we see you on this forum, during what are presumably your work hours, what are you supposed to be doing?
 
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lpast said:
The govt creates millions of jobs from the small local town to the cities to the states to the federal govt.....
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there are millions of hard-working Americans all over this country, working for the govt. From the Federal govt., to state govt, to county govt., to local govt....government has created millions of jobs, and continue to hire people from the private sector.
 
lpast said:
The govt creates millions of jobs from the small local town to the cities to the states to the federal govt....they are the only jobs paying a decent wage and affording their employees with a degree of security for their families...and because of this the Teaparty far right HATES THEM and wants them crushed. They dont want any comparisons to the rape that has been perpetrated on the working class in the private sector by the pigs at the trough. They dont want the private sector workers WAKING UP and shedding their fear and fighting back. Every teaparty supported gov that won in NOV attacked public workers...vilified them and took from them and either gave to the rich and corporations or tried too and failed....and thats what guaranteed that the gop can no longer be guaranteed my vote.
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Of course these private-sector workers are enslaved, but not, as you claim, by their employers. While they are the ones doing actual productive work, creating wealth and value, and contributing to the economy and to society as a whole; they are enslaved in that they are forced to give up some of their own earnings in taxes to support the government workers whom you lionize, who receive much higher wages and benefits than their private-sector counterparts do (and at the expense of their private-sector counterparts) while contributing much less.

Your public-sector workers, are, in fact, the true “pigs at the trough”, consuming the wealth created by the private-sector workers.
 
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apdst said:
For the gazillionth time: The government can't create jobs.
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the government can allocate more money to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure. that requires revenue, and it creates jobs.

the government can allocate money to address our domestic energy problem head on by funding the research to discover what comes after oil, a problem which the private sector will not address in earnest until there's an even more serious crisis. and by then, we might not have enough time. a moonshot domestic energy infrastructure and research program will create a lot of jobs.

the government can allocate money for numerous problems that are not being effectively addressed by the private sector.
 
1Perry said:
Sorry, I now realize my post may have come off rougher than meant.
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Apology accepted...no harm, no foul.

Sorry, I do not believe you address a real problem (debt) by adding even more debt. Your arguement is the same one used 2-3 years ago. I understand your arguement, I just completely disagree with it. If the government takes more money and spends more money the public is going to spend less and less. Yes, there will be some jobs filled but they will be offset by less public spending. We don't address our debt and stagnate like we are currently doing. Obama's plan is simply more of the same.
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You have to see both parts of the the President's proposals. So many people are focused on his jobs plan they forget about his deficit reduction plan. They are designed to work together, not separately.

His deficit reduction plan is very similar, if not identical, to what he proposed during the debt limit negotiations - across the board spending cuts with some tax hikes/subsidy eliminations. If implemented, his proposals will reduce the debt and and pay down the deficit gradually over time. Considering that the conservatives on both sides of the political divide have been calling for less government spending, I see this as a good thing.

I don't see how his jobs plan adds to the debt when it is designed to be deficit neutral. He's not asking to borrow more money, just use what revenues are generated via creative tax schemes (i.e., the "Buffet Rule" intended to increase the tax on hedge fund managers or by implementing the millionaire surtax as amended by Sen. Reid) or by offsetting spending by eliminating subsidies on industries that have shown they can compete in the free market place on their own. I find nothing wrong with either concept. Now, while these measures are not being advertised as being "permanent" long-term measures, I can understand how people see them as a prelude to permanent changes in the tax code. To that, I say simply watch to ensure if these such measures aren't terminated within the timeframe outlined in the deficit proposal. If Congress is to be trusted again with doing its job, we have to do ours. And that means holding our congressman accountable. That's what you have the Tea Party/Blue Dog Democrats for, but neither can be so "dogmatic" that their idealogy becomes so rabbid that they lose sight of the bigger picture. And to keep career politicians from starting in on their rhetorical :spin:, the best the voting public can do is fire them now! and avoid that inevitability.

You want to take back this country? Put the power back in the hands of the People. I think the moment is now. For me, that means getting rid of those who are out for self and not for the people who elected them to office.
 
Helix said:
the government can allocate more money to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure. that requires revenue, and it creates jobs....
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govt. hires more teachers, firemen, cops, engineers, sanitation workers, etc etc.



the idea that govt. cannot create jobs, is silly.
 
1Perry said:
They can not create self sustainable jobs. O.K., maybe they can create a forest ranger who is paid with camping fee's but I shouldn't have to pay to stay somewhere I already own.

They can in the large picture only create jobs that are paid by forcibly taking from others.
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That makes no sense on any level other than pure ideology. Jobs forcible taken from others?!?!?!?! What the hell does that even mean? What jobs did the TVA forcibly take from others? And please deal with the reality of the time and not some hypothetical coulda, shoulda, woulda fantasy.
 
1Perry said:
They can not create self sustainable jobs. O.K., maybe they can create a forest ranger who is paid with camping fee's but I shouldn't have to pay to stay somewhere I already own.

They can in the large picture only create jobs that are paid by forcibly taking from others.
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err.....civil servants pay income and other taxes too.
 
Paschendale said:
No, there's just a law saying that the IRS has to take exactly what you owe, no more and no less. So no, no one is actually able to increase their taxes at will.
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But, there's no law that forces a tax-payer to take all the deductions that they are entitled to. These billionaires can take fewer deductions and thereby pay more in taxes.

So, yes, everyone is able to increase their tax bill, at will.
 
Helix said:
the government can allocate more money to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure. that requires revenue, and it creates jobs.

the government can allocate money to address our domestic energy problem head on by funding the research to discover what comes after oil, a problem which the private sector will not address in earnest until there's an even more serious crisis. and by then, we might not have enough time. a moonshot domestic energy infrastructure and research program will create a lot of jobs.

the government can allocate money for numerous problems that are not being effectively addressed by the private sector.
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Who pays the bill?
 
Objective Voice said:
The problem with your way of thinking is you believe that every wealthy individual believes as you do, that they'll all write that tax check. Not all will and even if they do, some will be more or less generous than the next. Of course, it is their choice, but we do live in a capitalist society. As such, if one can get away with paying little in taxes - whether rich or poor - they'll do what they can to avoid doing so. But here's the rub where the influence of the wealthy comes into play: LOBBYIST!

When they are portrayed (or exposed) to helping to shape tax policy to such a degree where only those at the top see the biggest tax gains so much so that so much wealth is concentrated at the top, income accumulation becomes too lopsided. That's where we are today in our economic/free market/capitalistic system. What these billionaires are saying is "make money not for the sake of making money, but because you're doing things you're passionate about. Share your success with others; mentor. But above all do give back to those who helped you get to where you are. And if you truly believe in America, then do what you must do to keep America strong and that includes creating jobs right here at home." These people get it! They recognize that there is an income disparity in this country, but they also recognize that there can be something in it for them if they advocate a more balanced approach to our nation's drive for more economic prosperity for all who seek it.
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I'm not talking about all millionaires/billionaires. I'm referring to the ones that think they don't pay enough taxes. They can easily increase their tax burden by taking fewer write offs. It begs the question: If they're so hip on paying more taxes, why aren't they taking fewer write offs?
 
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