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Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement

cpwill said:
:shrug: and one day, when I'm retired, I shall live off my Roth and pay no taxes as well. this guy is a retired vet. .
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No, he said he was disabled.

He did not even approach saying he was a retired from the military.
 
megaprogman said:
The police have access to armor which is why I see this as symmetrical.
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Uhhhhh.... So assaulting police is okay if they have protective equipment?

W.....T......F .....??

This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard anyone say in my entire life.
 
Caine said:
Uhhhhh.... So assaulting police is okay if they have protective equipment?

W.....T......F .....??

This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard anyone say in my entire life.
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I didn't say it was ok, but I did say it should be considered as a factor in the police's response.

Will you kick a little girl's ass if she attacks you but does not have much chance of actually harming you?
 
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Karl said:
And there is the face of the right wing movement. Comparing a sit-in with a war zone, primed to kill at the drop of a hat.
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Dude... catch up here....

It was megaprogman who tried to make the comparison to a war zone...cpwill was responding to that lame comparison, and now you are attacking him for bringing it up???

Lame.

You have so much outrage you don't know who to properly lay it upon..
 
megaprogman said:
I didn't say it was ok, but I did say it should be considered as a factor in the police's response.

Will you kick a little girl's ass if she attacks you but has little chance of actually harming you?
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Umm..... They aren't in ****ing force shields dude...

They can still be harmed by firecrackers, bottles, paint cans, rocks, etc.
 
Caine said:
Dude... catch up here....

It was megaprogman who tried to make the comparison to a war zone...cpwill was responding to that lame comparison, and now you are attacking him for bringing it up???

Lame.

You have so much outrage you don't know who to properly lay it upon..
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Actually much of CPWill's response was due to a misunderstanding of my position and likely a lack of a desire to understand my position.
 
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Caine said:
Umm..... They aren't in ****ing force shields dude...

They can still be harmed by firecrackers, bottles, paint cans, rocks, etc.
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But harmed so much that they should unleash potentially deadly force such as rubber bullets? Thats pretty ignorant dude. :mrgreen:
 
dirtpoorchris said:
When cops are getting paid to silence average citizenry (and even war veterans) with blood on the pavement, then ya... someone, somewhere is exploiting something alright.
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When losers are whining about not having jobs because they are too busy unlawfully camping out in public lands, restricting access to these public lands, pissing and ****ting in public, cooking with 4ft flames right next to flammable tents, raping others at night, getting in drunken fights, and assaulting the police when they come to do their jobs........ They yes they will be asked to leave.

Nobody is silencing them... Occupy Protesters have been repeatedly told by local governments that they are free to protest and then clear the park at night like everyone else is supposed to do....
 
megaprogman said:
But harmed so much that they should unleash potentially deadly force such as rubber bullets? Thats pretty ignorant dude. :mrgreen:
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Yes. Nothing ignorant about the use of rubber bullets. I have a good idea you don't have a damned clue what they are, how they are used, how one is trained to used them.
 
megaprogman said:
Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement - CNN.com



My opinion was that the police response to the OWS movement in Oakland was overly brutal and goes beyond what is permitted even in actual war zones, such as Iraq.
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This was your position dude......

If a mob like that had descended upon us in Iraq (I was actually there.......twice), we would have used alot more than tear gas to clear them out.

So... how are cpwill and I misunderstanding your position???
 
Caine said:
Yes. Nothing ignorant about the use of rubber bullets. I have a good idea you don't have a damned clue what they are, how they are used, how one is trained to used them.
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Such "kinetic impact munitions" are meant to cause pain but not serious injury. They are expected to produce contusions, abrasions, and hematomas.[6] However, they may cause bone fractures, injuries to internal organs, or death. In a study of 90 patients in Northern Ireland, one died, 17 suffered permanent disabilities or deformities and 41 required hospital treatment after being fired upon with rubber bullets.[7]
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That right there is all I need to know. 17 permanent injuries and one death for a supposedly nonlethal method.
 
megaprogman said:
That right there is all I need to know. 17 permanent injuries and one death for a supposedly nonlethal method.
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So... those statistics tell you the training and methods of deployment that folks are trained to use?

Wow... statistics tell you everything don't they?
Amazing!












Not.

Hell, its not even the same country, no freaking way they are trained the same as we are.
 
Caine said:
So... those statistics tell you the training and methods of deployment that folks are trained to use?

Wow... statistics tell you everything don't they?
Amazing!












Not.

Hell, its not even the same country, no freaking way they are trained the same as we are.
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Statistics are often a far better tool than anecdotal evidence.

Sorry if you don't like data that doesn't support your view.
 
megaprogman said:
Statistics are often a far better tool than anecdotal evidence.

Sorry if you don't like data that doesn't support your view.
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It doesn't support anything.

If the statistics cannot be compared because the training and deployment methods of the statistical sample are unknown when trying to use them in comparison to the standards used by the Oakland PD than your statistical sample means N O T H I N G.
 
Caine said:
It doesn't support anything.

If the statistics cannot be compared because the training and deployment methods of the statistical sample are unknown when trying to use them in comparison to the standards used by the Oakland PD than your statistical sample means N O T H I N G.
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I disagree, the fact is that this method has been shown to be harmful and to a degree that it is over and above any danger that the police were facing and thats all there is to it.

http://www.businessinsider.com/mari...-used-methods-prohibited-in-war-zones-2011-10
 
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megaprogman said:
I disagree, the fact is that this method has been shown to be harmful and to a degree that it is over and above any danger that the police were facing and thats all there is to it.

Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones
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So, you know the extent of the danger the police were facing?

Wow, know it all wizard you are!


You are starting to look desperate using things like "that is all there is to it"

and making HUGE leaps of logic like KNOWING what the police were facing without having been there.

Just because they were wearing protective gear... its okay to throw **** at them... Cool.

Next time I see a citizen riding his bicycle with helmet and elbow/knee pads. I'll make sure I throw something at him just because I can :roll:
 
Caine said:
So, you know the extent of the danger the police were facing?

Wow, know it all wizard you are!


You are starting to look desperate using things like "that is all there is to it"

and making HUGE leaps of logic like KNOWING what the police were facing without having been there.

Just because they were wearing protective gear... its okay to throw **** at them... Cool.

Next time I see a citizen riding his bicycle with helmet and elbow/knee pads. I'll make sure I throw something at him just because I can :roll:
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Heh, you say I look desperate and then go back to using logic that I already told you was wrong and not my motivation.

As far as my "thats all there is to it" thats pretty much how I see it. You are bringing in things that I do not consider relevant.
 
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I find your link interesting.....

This "Marine" that your link quoted, had wrong information... I wonder where he got it from....

How did a cop who is supposed to have training on his weapon system accidentally SHOOT someone in the head with a 40mm gas canister? Simple. He was aiming at him.
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From the video linked on the main Oakland thread that has a great view, you can clearly see he is NOT directly shot with anything.......
Before gas goes into a crowd shield bearers have to be making no progress moving a crowd or crowd must be assaulting the line. Not with sticks and stones but a no bull**** assault.
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Throwing firecrackers on police could cause their clothing to catch fire, fire is deadly....... Also, I wouldn't say that they were making ANY progress with the crowd from the videos I have seen.... What makes this marine think they were?
He sent that round out with the intention of doing some serious damage to the protestors.
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Considering the guy wasn't hit with a grenade, this is also false.... Where does this jackass get his information? Probably from the folks who solicited him to speak.


And While I disagree with the act of throwing a percussion grenade into the group that was surrounding the wounded man..... That doesn't make this incorrect statement somehow turn correct...

Second, the officer threw a flash-bang directly into a group of people trying to carry him away for medical treatment. Here's the Military guidance on that decision:
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Umm... At the time the percussion grenade was thrown, there was nobody lifting the man off of the ground, therefore, there was ABSOLUTELY no way of determining this group's intent of tending to the wounded man, or just gathering around him screaming OMG ****ING PIGGGGGGGZ.
 
megaprogman said:
Heh, you say I look desperate and then go back to using logic that I already told you was wrong and not my motivation.

As far as my "thats all there is to it" thats pretty much how I see it. You are bringing in things that I do not consider relevant.
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So.. how do you KNOW what the police were facing?
 
cpwill the other one of these sides is rejecting the rule of law. they are insisting that others should work for them. they appear to have never willingly sacrificed anything for anyone else in their entire life. they celebrate a "culture" built around lack of responsibility and parasitism off of the first group of people said:
cpwill said:
check it out dave, this guy is out there fighting for human freedom:

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I can not review the video. Telephone modem link. However, your quote indicted "they" as if to include all and you are wrong. I'm sure you'll find some slackers anywhere, especially among students, but this movement is obviously not the slackers and the unemployed. You have not substantiated the "they", many or more than one, or anyone or thing representative of the OWS groups. They seem to be average USA Americans usually of the 99% variety. The students have been sold a "bill of goods" that implied the education would lead to employment. A bad education, mind you, one geared to making them "worker bees" instead of job creating entrepreneurs.
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Thrilla said:
Karl said:
cpwill said:
megaprogman said:
My opinion was that the police response to the OWS movement in Oakland was overly brutal and goes beyond what is permitted even in actual war zones, such as Iraq. [...]
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then I would suggest you go there, as your opinion is incorrect. If someone had thrown a bottle, rock, and small explosives at me when I was in Iraq, they would have been killed. If you run up to a patrol today with something unidentifiable in your hand and move to throw it at them, they will all turn en masse and ventilate you.
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And there is the face of the right wing movement. Comparing a sit-in with a war zone, primed to kill at the drop of a hat.
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he didn't bring up a comparison, the OP did. try to be fair, if that's possible.
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Upon review I can see your point, and I stand corrected.

However, my point that the face of the hard core right wing, for decades now, has been excessive brutality, sometimes to the point of death, normally applied/advocated in a bigoted/discriminatory manner against individuals (Gitmo detainees, Muslims, blacks, Hispanics, and now OWS protestors) -- stands. To that effect, I quote further from the same post quoted above:

cpwill said:
fascinating. considering they were using non-lethal force in response to what technically falls under the definition of a deadly threat triggering the 7 Justifications of Deadly Force, I would be interested in hearing what you think the nicer kinder gentler reaction (vice tear gas) to being charged by a crowd hurling explosives (because that is what firecrackers are) would be. Rubber bullets and tear gas hurt - but mallets to the skull hurt much worse.
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Primed. Throw a firecracker (allegedly), take a bullet (the FMJ, not rubber, variety).

Try to refrain from the personal attacks, if that's possible. It doesn't bother me, but it is a clear sign of a failed argument. Just trying to help... :mrgreen:
 
Karl said:
Upon review I can see your point, and I stand corrected.

However, my point that the face of the hard core right wing, for decades now, has been excessive brutality, sometimes to the point of death, normally applied/advocated in a bigoted/discriminatory manner against individuals (Gitmo detainees, Muslims, blacks, Hispanics, and now OWS protestors) -- stands. To that effect, I quote further from the same post quoted above:



Primed. Throw a firecracker (allegedly), take a bullet (the FMJ, not rubber, variety).

Try to refrain from the personal attacks, if that's possible. It doesn't bother me, but it is a clear sign of a failed argument. Just trying to help... :mrgreen:
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it wasn't a personal attack, sorry if it sounded that way.

but i dismiss your perspective of the "face" of far right wingers.... it's what you want to perceive, not objective reality.


Cpwill's perspective is one of combat operations... and he is generally correct in that perspective.
if he was conducting primarily civil disturbance operations, he would have a differing perspective .. primarily because of the inherent difference in tactics and methods employed.

he is correct in that ,during combat operations, the military utilization of force is much more liberal ( not in the political way).. a throw rock can and does result in disproportional force employment ( that's a nice way of saying a round fired will be the response to a rock thrown)
 
megaprogman said:
Injured Iraq veteran is face of Occupy movement - CNN.com



My opinion was that the police response to the OWS movement in Oakland was overly brutal and goes beyond what is permitted even in actual war zones, such as Iraq. There are more humane crowd control options available that the police have access to, which would also affirm the humanity of people that they may disagree with. The Oakland police have no excuse for their behavior.

Putting that aside, this sort of thing, putting a face on a movement is the type of thing that galvanizes people and movements and puts them on a higher plateau. These sorts of movements, whether OWS, arab spring, or Tea Party are always emotional at their core and emotional images get messages across faster and more fluidly than words and reason ever can. It is sad that it came to this, but due to police actions, here we are.
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You're aware this guy started the "ihatetheMarinecorps.com" site, and is quoted as saying some sharply critical things about Israel as well? He may not be such a great "face" for the movement after all.
 
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Josie said:
Here's another face of the movement:



This man and the above man have two completely different viewpoints. This isn't a cohesive group - it's a mish mash of several different ideas. There is no one face.
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Without viewing your lengthy videos (waste of time; a succinct typewritten point would have been the better approach, or at least a summary) I will note that ending the Fed seems to be a Libertarian idea, so using that as a point in your argument seems odd given your stated Libertarian lean.

In any case, the OWS events have a very clear idea -- it's time for the filthy rich (Wall Street) to stop taking at the expense of everyone else. In short, they are saying enough greed already. Since that shakes the unfettered capitalists to their very core, we are seeing a violent response to the protesters' message.
 
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