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Occupy Philadelphia costs city $400,000 in police surveillance

Why do you think that? Is your job too hard?

j-mac
Gee, I don't know. Should I send a letter of request survey to Wall St. to determine how many of them are inept at aircraft night vision lighting?

It just riled me up. Maybe it's just a propaganda letter concocted by the Left. That would make more sense than people actually saying that they will take my job if they lose theirs. **** 'em in the ditch, shoot 'em in the head.
 
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Gee, I don't know. Should I send a letter of request survey to Wall St. to determine how many of them are inept at aircraft night vision lighting?

Would it be fair to say that you would be just as inept at a job at a Wall St. hedge fund? Or on the trading floor? Neither of you know what is involved in each others jobs. right?

It just riled me up. Maybe it's just a propaganda letter concocted by the Left. That would make more sense than people actually saying that they will take my job if they lose theirs. **** 'em in the ditch, shoot 'em in the head.

Pretty violent statement there Mick....I wonder if you'd be the first to whine unfair when bruised by a bean bag.

j-mac
 
Gee, I don't know. Should I send a letter of request survey to Wall St. to determine how many of them are inept at aircraft night vision lighting?

It just riled me up. Maybe it's just a propaganda letter concocted by the Left. That would make more sense than people actually saying that they will take my job if they lose theirs. **** 'em in the ditch, shoot 'em in the head.
Why does that bother you and how can that shock you? We are talking about A-personality types...high acheivers. Just how well do you think the 47% would stack up against people that have demonstrated a drive, willingness and most importantly an ABILITY to succeed?
 
Good God! Why is it that libs think that they are sooooo clever by trying to use thinly veiled inference as deception? Now at the risk of you magically choosing now to log off, or move to another part of the board, why don't you fully, and clearly explain who it was you were attacking then. Oh, and try and appear like you attempting a genuine answer please....thx.

J-mac

Sure, it's this idea of the individual, this idea that the wealthy are defacto super hero's that can do nothing wrong. The fact is people generally that do very well...like Warren Buffet will tell you that the system is what allows people to do well. This idea that Americans or even wealthy Americans are so much smarter, hard working etc than any other group in the world is ridiculous. The fact is, if you're wealthy in America a large part is the structure built over centuries of hard work by Americans. From the Chinese immigrant that built the railroads, the Irish immigrants building the Erie Canal, the interstate railroad system, the wealth accumulated in the United States by centuries of hardwork from Americans in all classes.

There's also this fallacy of easily transferable skills. The fact is...skills are not transferable and some skills are better rewarded than others. If you can throw a football 70 yards with pinpoint accuracy, work diligently in the film room to study the other team...that doesn't mean you can be a Wall Street broker. Just like the idea that someone is a Wall Street broker will walk into a classroom and be a great teacher. There are great teachers that spend lots of time on perfecting their abilities. That doesn't mean they will make even a good ditch digger. Productivity is gained from experience and this idea that if you're a Wall Street broker you're compensated for working harder than everybody is just a fallacy. You're compensated because our system is constructed in a way that skills dealing with Capital are highly rewarded.

Hard work and discipline are everywhere, from the lower class to the highest class. This idea that all lower class individuals are lazy grifters and all higher income individuals are super humans is.....basically ridiculous idea.

I'm reading the new Steve Jobs bio, and within 100 pages you see how he benefited from growing up in an Area where DoD research is taking place. You see that he benefited from having neighbors that were engineers working in ground breaking research. He talks about how he dealt with kids at a summer job and lacked patience and wanted to smack the kids. He would be an atrocious teacher. He has a nack for electrionics. He's hard working, innovative, but benefited from a system that coupled what he had a knack for with the means to explore that knack. He mentions multiple times how he could of ended up in jail if he wouldn't of had some influences in his life that ended up positive.
 
Would it be fair to say that you would be just as inept at a job at a Wall St. hedge fund? Or on the trading floor? Neither of you know what is involved in each others jobs. right?
I would wait until the day before the crash and short the market to death. Which would gain me nothing since there wouldn't be anything to take.
Hell no I couldn't work on the trading floor. But I'm not saying that if I lose my job. I'll just take one of theirs.


Pretty violent statement there Mick....I wonder if you'd be the first to whine unfair when bruised by a bean bag.

j-mac
Don't know. I've never been shot with a bean bag. I guess I'd just shoot back.
 
Sure, it's this idea of the individual, this idea that the wealthy are defacto super hero's that can do nothing wrong. The fact is people generally that do very well...like Warren Buffet will tell you that the system is what allows people to do well. This idea that Americans or even wealthy Americans are so much smarter, hard working etc than any other group in the world is ridiculous. The fact is, if you're wealthy in America a large part is the structure built over centuries of hard work by Americans. From the Chinese immigrant that built the railroads, the Irish immigrants building the Erie Canal, the interstate railroad system, the wealth accumulated in the United States by centuries of hardwork from Americans in all classes.

There's also this fallacy of easily transferable skills. The fact is...skills are not transferable and some skills are better rewarded than others. If you can throw a football 70 yards with pinpoint accuracy, work diligently in the film room to study the other team...that doesn't mean you can be a Wall Street broker. Just like the idea that someone is a Wall Street broker will walk into a classroom and be a great teacher. There are great teachers that spend lots of time on perfecting their abilities. That doesn't mean they will make even a good ditch digger. Productivity is gained from experience and this idea that if you're a Wall Street broker you're compensated for working harder than everybody is just a fallacy. You're compensated because our system is constructed in a way that skills dealing with Capital are highly rewarded.

Hard work and discipline are everywhere, from the lower class to the highest class. This idea that all lower class individuals are lazy grifters and all higher income individuals are super humans is.....basically ridiculous idea.

I'm reading the new Steve Jobs bio, and within 100 pages you see how he benefited from growing up in an Area where DoD research is taking place. You see that he benefited from having neighbors that were engineers working in ground breaking research. He talks about how he dealt with kids at a summer job and lacked patience and wanted to smack the kids. He would be an atrocious teacher. He has a nack for electrionics. He's hard working, innovative, but benefited from a system that coupled what he had a knack for with the means to explore that knack. He mentions multiple times how he could of ended up in jail if he wouldn't of had some influences in his life that ended up positive.

Are some barriers that I don't know about that prevent someone from achieving the success you say is on the backs of others? The beauty of America is in that anyone can rise, it is up to them. Not some utopia where everyone is compensated for someone else's success because they 'feel' they should be.

j-mac
 
I would wait until the day before the crash and short the market to death. Which would gain me nothing since there wouldn't be anything to take.
Hell no I couldn't work on the trading floor. But I'm not saying that if I lose my job. I'll just take one of theirs.


Don't know. I've never been shot with a bean bag. I guess I'd just shoot back.

But wait! I thought Tea Partiers were the ones we had to fear from violent action....Now we see it is you.

j-mac
 
Are some barriers that I don't know about that prevent someone from achieving the success you say is on the backs of others? The beauty of America is in that anyone can rise, it is up to them. Not some utopia where everyone is compensated for someone else's success because they 'feel' they should be.

j-mac

There are always barriers. There are barriers in every system. America benefits by limiting those barriers to the largest extent possible.
 
There are always barriers. There are barriers in every system. America benefits by limiting those barriers to the largest extent possible.

So then how does this answer square with your previous diatribe? Are you saying that anyone can succeed?


j-mac
 
Why does that bother you and how can that shock you? We are talking about A-personality types...high acheivers. Just how well do you think the 47% would stack up against people that have demonstrated a drive, willingness and most importantly an ABILITY to succeed?

I agree, they are inherently worth less as humans than the rich... as the founders intended. :roll:
 
I agree, they are inherently worth less as humans than the rich... as the founders intended. :roll:

That is not what Vance was saying, but if you feel that you need to pull things out of context then I would venture that independent is not what you need as a lean designator....


j-mac
 
I can see how what I said is confusing. I mean, America can benefit by limiting those barriers.


But what I am getting at is what barriers do you perceive to be in the way? The great thing about this country is that anyone that has a good enough idea, and the drive to see it through can make it happen.

j-mac
 
But what I am getting at is what barriers do you perceive to be in the way? The great thing about this country is that anyone that has a good enough idea, and the drive to see it through can make it happen.

No, they can't. Not "anybody"; some people with a good enough idea and who are lucky enough can make it. Not everyone with a good idea. The system is set up against competition now, that's the corporate capitalist model. It's not free market, it's not competition based. It's who is in bed with the government based. Which is essentially the main complaint of OWS.

Hard work is part of it, but it is not as large a part as it once was.
 
No, they can't. Not "anybody"; some people with a good enough idea and who are lucky enough can make it. Not everyone with a good idea. The system is set up against competition now, that's the corporate capitalist model. It's not free market, it's not competition based. It's who is in bed with the government based. Which is essentially the main complaint of OWS.

Hard work is part of it, but it is not as large a part as it once was.


Nonsense. The complaint of the OWS is pure crap! Meant to cover for socialist underpinnings. This country is one of only a few places where exactly what I described can happen. Ask any number of legal immigrants who now live in gated communities in the wealthiest parts of our nation. They still get it, we take it for granted.

j-mac
 
But what I am getting at is what barriers do you perceive to be in the way? The great thing about this country is that anyone that has a good enough idea, and the drive to see it through can make it happen.

j-mac

I'll use Steve Jobs as an example because he's fresh in my mind. He mentioned his parents lived in a bad neighborhood and attended a bad school. He threatened to drop out if his parents didn't send him to a different school because he said the school was atrocious (gangs/bad atmosphere). They were poor but moved to a better district by buying a cheap house zoned for a better school. Jobs said if they wouldn't of moved he probably would of dropped out and ended up in jail.


That's one example of a guy that if he would of been in jail, or dropped out of high school, would of drastically changed America. How many bright young people are in the same situation? His parents on a lower middle income salary could afford college....barely. Nowadays tuition compared to a lower income salary makes it much more difficult for families to send their kids to school.

Do you think we're better off ensuring people with the talents get the right training? That everything is based on merit not if someone can pay?
 
I'll use Steve Jobs as an example because he's fresh in my mind. He mentioned his parents lived in a bad neighborhood and attended a bad school. He threatened to drop out if his parents didn't send him to a different school because he said the school was atrocious (gangs/bad atmosphere). They were poor but moved to a better district by buying a cheap house zoned for a better school. Jobs said if they wouldn't of moved he probably would of dropped out and ended up in jail.


That's one example of a guy that if he would of been in jail, or dropped out of high school, would of drastically changed America. How many bright young people are in the same situation? His parents on a lower middle income salary could afford college....barely. Nowadays tuition compared to a lower income salary makes it much more difficult for families to send their kids to school.

Do you think we're better off ensuring people with the talents get the right training? That everything is based on merit not if someone can pay?

But he had the drive. There are just as many kids in good schools that fail to do anything meaningful with their lives. Just as there are kids in poor schools that will succeed. Point is that success has just as much to do with the individual as it does the surrounding.

j-mac
 
Nonsense. The complaint of the OWS is pure crap! Meant to cover for socialist underpinnings. This country is one of only a few places where exactly what I described can happen. Ask any number of legal immigrants who now live in gated communities in the wealthiest parts of our nation. They still get it, we take it for granted.

j-mac

Naw, reality. There's a reason why wealth keeps accumulating in the smallest percentage of population while many others find themselves losing ground. Improper regulation, improper oversight, intense entanglement of State and Corporate interests.

The US is still better than most other places...I'd venture to say all other places. But we used to be better. We used to be a shining city on the hill; a beacon to the world, an example of freedom and liberty in motion. That city is tarnished now, and it occurred under Republocrat rule. We still have a degree of mobility, but even that will be shut down over time if we do not control the government, if we do not do our duty to protect this Republic. Yeah, better than most...but still losing.
 
Naw, reality. There's a reason why wealth keeps accumulating in the smallest percentage of population while many others find themselves losing ground. Improper regulation, improper oversight, intense entanglement of State and Corporate interests.

The US is still better than most other places...I'd venture to say all other places. But we used to be better. We used to be a shining city on the hill; a beacon to the world, an example of freedom and liberty in motion. That city is tarnished now, and it occurred under Republocrat rule. We still have a degree of mobility, but even that will be shut down over time if we do not control the government, if we do not do our duty to protect this Republic. Yeah, better than most...but still losing.


On that we can for the most part agree, however OWS is not the way to get there.

j-mac
 
But he had the drive. There are just as many kids in good schools that fail to do anything meaningful with their lives. Just as there are kids in poor schools that will succeed. Point is that success has just as much to do with the individual as it does the surrounding.

j-mac
Yes, he had drive, but opportunity met drive and that's what created Steve Jobs. Read his bio dude. It's a really good read his whole early life shows how he is an extremely driven individual but had a lot of opportunities at a young age. He grew up in an area where government research and private firms were creating new technology in electronics.

I agree environment+individual=success. I never said the individual wasn't important.
 
But he had the drive. There are just as many kids in good schools that fail to do anything meaningful with their lives. Just as there are kids in poor schools that will succeed. Point is that success has just as much to do with the individual as it does the surrounding.

j-mac

Yes....but it does have a lot to do with surrounding. It was once freer. A man could work himself up, maybe not real rich but enough to provide for his kids and to give them better opportunities so that they can go further. Hard work, determination, fortitude, grit; it's all still necessary; but it's not as valued as it once was. Who do you know? That's become the important question. If you know the right people, all doors open. If not, well hard work and a great deal of luck are necessary. A great deal of luck. The doors are blocked to secure the doors of others.
 
On that we can for the most part agree, however OWS is not the way to get there.

j-mac

OWS I feel carries that message. Not the way to get there? They aren't a political movement with a goal. They're an alarm clock. Get the **** up cause **** is going to hell in a handbasket and we need to get on top of it.
 
The US is still better than most other places...I'd venture to say all other places. But we used to be better. We used to be a shining city on the hill; a beacon to the world, an example of freedom and liberty in motion. That city is tarnished now, and it occurred under Republocrat rule. We still have a degree of mobility, but even that will be shut down over time if we do not control the government, if we do not do our duty to protect this Republic. Yeah, better than most...but still losing.

I agree, the only way we're going to compete in the future is provide as much opportunity to as much people as possible. One wasted Steve Jobs due to crappy schools or lack of opportunty has a opportunity cost of billions in possible wealth, thousands of possible jobs, and incalculable brain power.
 
Yes, he had drive, but opportunity met drive and that's what created Steve Jobs. Read his bio dude. It's a really good read his whole early life shows how he is an extremely driven individual but had a lot of opportunities at a young age. He grew up in an area where government research and private firms were creating new technology in electronics.

I agree environment+individual=success. I never said the individual wasn't important.

Environment does have some to do with it but not always. I am familiar with Jobs career. I live in a household with a 20 year graphic artist, that worked on possibly the first MAC's out there, as well as personally owning three desk tops, two laptops, and a myriad of Apple products throughout the household.

heh, heh, I've heard of Jobs long before this book.

j-mac
 
I agree, the only way we're going to compete in the future is provide as much opportunity to as much people as possible. One wasted Steve Jobs due to crappy schools or lack of opportunty has a opportunity cost of billions in possible wealth, thousands of possible jobs, and incalculable brain power.

then we must get our schools cleaned up, and that has to do with making it about the kids again, and not some cash cow that libs love to exploit through union unsustainable contracts that they knew would break the system when they made them.

j-mac
 
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