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Obama allowing states to opt out of education reform requirements

OrphanSlug said:
Unsure myself of what NCLB was modeled on but it almost does not matter. Assuming it was a model of what was done in Texas at the time and had some level of success I'd still question what the success measurement was. If it was purely test score increases then I'd say the same thing I say about NCLB, they were able to teach the test well. I tend to look at this another way though, assuming it worked in Texas and failed at the national level... would that not be a great example of why we should just repeal the act then dismiss the entire Federal Department of Education and put this back to the states where it belongs? Think of the savings alone but more so think of the potential for the states to put back on track what the Federal level failed miserably at.
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No. Just because one type of educational reform does not work on the national level does not mean we should not get rid of the Department of Education. Rather, it means the Department of Education needs to institute policies that are capable of working on the national level.

Personally, I'd rather the ED be used to help coordinate administration policies across the states and to help coordinate education policies across multiple states.
 
TurtleDude said:
No one believes that claim
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You mean when he asked about the National Endowment for the Arts, you thought he was talking about something else?
 
Deuce said:
You mean when he asked about the National Endowment for the Arts, you thought he was talking about something else?
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More obfuscation

when we are talking about education and the NEA is brought up its pretty obvious

it would be akin to a discussion on gun laws and thunder claiming the NRA means the National Recovery Act under FDR
 
TurtleDude said:
More obfuscation

when we are talking about education and the NEA is brought up its pretty obvious

it would be akin to a discussion on gun laws and thunder claiming the NRA means the National Recovery Act under FDR
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I think about the National Endowments for the Arts first usually. But then again I went to art school.
 
samsmart said:
No. Just because one type of educational reform does not work on the national level does not mean we should not get rid of the Department of Education. Rather, it means the Department of Education needs to institute policies that are capable of working on the national level.

Personally, I'd rather the ED be used to help coordinate administration policies across the states and to help coordinate education policies across multiple states.
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I understand your position but tend to disagree. The Department of Education has been around long enough to do what you suggest yet has not for whatever reason. In this case, IMO, the states would be far better off without the Federal level coming up with new and inventive ways to make matters worse.
 
Thunder said:
I thought he was talking about the NEA......aka National Endowment for the Arts. A favorite target of conservatives and other extremists.
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whenever there is any discussion about education, there is always some sloganeer blaming the whole thing on unions within the first five posts.

i have a question, though. if we remove collective bargaining, cut salaries to $30k a year, cut benefits, and remove job security from teaching positions, will enough conservatives step up and fill those jobs?

education can't be run like a business. a business can discontinue an underperforming product. a school cannot. and giving performance bonuses to teachers instead of salary will encourage the best teachers to avoid the students who need the most help.
 
Helix said:
whenever there is any discussion about education, there is always some sloganeer blaming the whole thing on unions within the first five posts.

i have a question, though. if we remove collective bargaining, cut salaries to $30k a year, cut benefits, and remove job security from teaching positions, will enough conservatives step up and fill those jobs?

education can't be run like a business. a business can discontinue an underperforming product. a school cannot. and giving performance bonuses to teachers instead of salary will encourage the best teachers to avoid the students who need the most help.
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public sector unions are scourge. why? because they are not engaged in arms length bargaining. Unlike private sector unions who almost never have a major say in management's representatives, the public sector unions have often funded the election of those who allegedly represent the "public" and thus the taxpayers, negotiators often owe their positions to the unions. meaning the "deals" we tax payers get are not usually the best possible especially in democratic party dominated areas

secondly, a private sector union can only push so far or the private business closes or relocates. Not so with public schools.
 
TurtleDude said:
public sector unions are scourge. why? because they are not engaged in arms length bargaining. Unlike private sector unions who almost never have a major say in management's representatives, the public sector unions have often funded the election of those who allegedly represent the "public" and thus the taxpayers, negotiators often owe their positions to the unions. meaning the "deals" we tax payers get are not usually the best possible especially in democratic party dominated areas

secondly, a private sector union can only push so far or the private business closes or relocates. Not so with public schools.
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my parents were both teachers, and dedicated their lives to education. i support having wages and benefits that attract the best people.

teachers are hardly making out like bandits. my parents never got to "clock out" at the end of the day. the work continued until they went to bed most nights, and weekends were spent grading and preparing. they worked their asses off, as do most good teachers. and even with the union, the wages were not competitive with what they could have made in the private sector in the 80s and 90s. the wages became competitive only after decades of outsourcing collapsed the economy. they kept teaching because they believed in it and loved the kids. my entire area is better because of their hard work.

the Republican solution in my state has been to cut funding to schools by more than $300 million, close schools, fire teachers, gut collective bargaining, and to promote policies which will lead to teaching to the test. it has been a continuous assault on public education, basically.
 
cpwill said:
naturally. those Teachers Unions Donations don't come free.
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Its a bad law, no matter what perspective you can find to make them look bad for doing the right thing. But then again, this is how talking points work. Don't look at the substance of the issue, find a way to link it to partisanship. Good job Cpwill.
 
Helix said:
my parents were both teachers, and dedicated their lives to education. i support having wages and benefits that attract the best people.

teachers are hardly making out like bandits. my parents never got to "clock out" at the end of the day. the work continued until they went to bed most nights, and weekends were spent grading and preparing. they worked their asses off, as do most good teachers. and even with the union, the wages were not competitive with what they could have made in the private sector in the 80s and 90s. the wages became competitive only after decades of outsourcing collapsed the economy. they kept teaching because they believed in it and loved the kids. my entire area is better because of their hard work.

the Republican solution in my state has been to cut funding to schools by more than $300 million, close schools, fire teachers, gut collective bargaining, and to promote policies which will lead to teaching to the test. it has been a continuous assault on public education, basically.
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that has no relevance to what I said. I once represented a school board and I know full well what I am speaking of. One of my favorite myths is that knocking down the power of the public sector unions is an "assault" on public education. Rather its an attack on overpriced teachers.
 
TurtleDude said:
that has no relevance to what I said. I once represented a school board and I know full well what I am speaking of. One of my favorite myths is that knocking down the power of the public sector unions is an "assault" on public education. Rather its an attack on overpriced teachers.
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Its ok, your rant about teachers unions had no relation to the post of his you quoted and most certainly did not answer his question.
 
megaprogman said:
Its ok, your rant about teachers unions had no relation to the post of his you quoted and most certainly did not answer his question.
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what question? and could you chill with the cats. that stuff creeps me out. The thought of thousands of cats crammed in the box gives me the willies
 
TurtleDude said:
what question? and could you chill with the cats. that stuff creeps me out. The thought of thousands of cats crammed in the box gives me the willies
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Helix said:
i have a question, though. if we remove collective bargaining, cut salaries to $30k a year, cut benefits, and remove job security from teaching positions, will enough conservatives step up and fill those jobs?
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Your response was that you did not like unions, which does not address this question. So, will gutting education help education?
 
megaprogman said:
Your response was that you did not like unions, which does not address this question.
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His question was not relevant since it assumes facts not in evidence.
 
Schools need to be able to compete for quality. Support vouchers. Schools can be run on some of the same economic principals as businesses. Why shouldn't I be able to spend the money meant for my kid's education on the school of my choice? Why shouldn't schools be able to pay teachers more because of demand for good teachers? Quality teachers should be revered. Crummy teachers should be forced to improve or be fired (just like any occupation). The Teachers Union doesn't help teachers or students. And, if teachers are just teaching kids how to pass tests because of NCLB, whose fault is that? It's the teacher's fault and the school's fault. We all had teachers that would essentially tell us what the answers were going to be on tests - way before NCLB. They just taught the test material. If we agree on the material, what difference does it make? If all a teacher does is go over and over the same material because that's what's going to be on the test, it's not the test's fault. A test is a valid measurement of learning (no, not the sole measurement).
 
TurtleDude said:
His question was not relevant since it assumes facts not in evidence.
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So there haven't been lots of threads here proposing we do this very thing?

Could have surprised me.
 
megaprogman said:
\\

So there haven't been lots of threads here proposing we do this very thing?

Could have surprised me.
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He assumes it will drive down wages. In reality it might lead to higher wages for GOOD teachers and lower wages for INCOMPETENT teachers rather than wages based on UNION seniority

SYL off to the range for some shooting
 
GreenvilleGrows said:
Schools need to be able to compete for quality. Support vouchers. Schools can be run on some of the same economic principals as businesses. Why shouldn't I be able to spend the money meant for my kid's education on the school of my choice? Why shouldn't schools be able to pay teachers more because of demand for good teachers? Quality teachers should be revered. Crummy teachers should be forced to improve or be fired (just like any occupation). The Teachers Union doesn't help teachers or students. And, if teachers are just teaching kids how to pass tests because of NCLB, whose fault is that? It's the teacher's fault and the school's fault. We all had teachers that would essentially tell us what the answers were going to be on tests - way before NCLB. They just taught the test material. If we agree on the material, what difference does it make? If all a teacher does is go over and over the same material because that's what's going to be on the test, it's not the test's fault. A test is a valid measurement of learning (no, not the sole measurement).
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There is an old quote that has much truth to it.

What gets measured gets done. If you set a standard people will find a way to conform to it, this why a manager has to be careful in what he or she asks for.
 
TurtleDude said:
More obfuscation

when we are talking about education and the NEA is brought up its pretty obvious

it would be akin to a discussion on gun laws and thunder claiming the NRA means the National Recovery Act under FDR
Click to expand...

He... said... National Endowment for the Arts. Like, he actually spelled it out.
 
I agree with most of you, in that NCLB had good intentions, but the policy was written by people who, for the most part, attended private/prep schools or public schools during the 50's and 60's when the US was still "on top." For the most part, these policy-makers have no real concept of what teaching in a public school is like in the 21st century. This is the underlying reason why this policy was doomed to fail from the "get go". NCLB has done nothing more than force most public schools to teach test-taking skills.....which is great if these kids plan on working on a career in psychometry or if the future job market for professional test-takers begins to take an up-swing.

This is my 18th year as a public school teacher, and I must say, that my job has become almost "robotic" in nature. The US Dept of Educ, state, and local school districts have brought in "experts" to create pacing guides, take test-writing capabilities away from the classroom teachers, and provide scripted lesson plans and reviews which we're required to follow if we want to keep our jobs. Also, accountability now falls squarely on the shulders of the teacher, even though we're not allowed to actually "teach" the material the way WE KNOW our students will learn it best. Frustrating. So, in summary, yes, NCLB needs to die......quickly. I rarely give Obama an "attaboy", but in this case I must. The only thing that would make me happier than to see NCLB die, would be to see the complete abolishment of the US Dept. of Education. Boy, wouldn't that be a radical change for the better! :)
 
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