White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

Catawba · Oct 3, 2011

Conservative said:
How does sending more FIT to the Federal Govt. affect Senior benefits? You don't understand FICA do you?

I understand it enough that I know money taken in for Social Security was used to help fund optional wars so the rich could continue with their discounted tax rates, and that its time for the rich folks to pay that money back, rather than the seniors have to take the hit in reduced benefits.

SS rate payers did not create the nation's debt and they should not be made to take up the slack for the wealthiest who have benefited from their tax breaks for the last 30 years.

I am a senior and know that sending more to the govt. doesn't change my benefits at all.

It does when people are using the national debt (most of which, would not exist without 30 years of tax breaks for the rich) as an excuse for further cutting away at the middle class benefits provided through SS and Medicare.

TurtleDude · Oct 3, 2011

muRda said:
No, not at all. Do you realize what that chart means? It's not a comparison over time, it's static.

Really? You think one man has everything to do with government debt and the economy?

All you've done is regurgitate conservative talking points without addressing specifically anything I've brought up (or when you have, you were misunderstanding what I actually said instead of how you read it). How does me posting a chart about wealth distribution in this country and concerns about corporations lead you to start talking about Governor Cuomo? Stick to the topic and points I make, not everything has to be degraded into some tangent on what you hold dear. See below.

Is that the lullaby that was sung to you at night? How about actually making a point instead of worthless platitudes?

sorry newbie but I tire of the lefties whining that it is the fault of the rich that others are failures. Its not the fault of the rich that people are poor anymore than its the fault of a good student that others are failures or stupid.

we have spent far too much time and energy excusing failure and sloth.

muRda · Oct 3, 2011

Conservative said:
Sorry but bea.gov, bls.gov, and the U.S. Treasury refute your rhetoric and that is all that matters. Those aren't conservative talking points, those are facts. Please explain why there is such passion for raising taxes?

So it's fine for you to assume they do, but not for me to assume they don't? Bear the onus, my man.

You see, I don't give a damn how much you or anyone else makes nor how much wealth you accumulate. Don't care who controls what part of the nation's wealth because I know that I have an opportunity to accumulate wealth just like anyone else. Corporations employ people and corporations pay dividends to shareholders as well as taxes. No corporations and millions would have to live off SS income, hardly enough to benefit anyone.

C'mon, man, really? In the last post I specifically pointed out how you do nothing but degenerate any progress of a debate by spiraling into talking points and diving face-first into spreading your agenda without a safety cord.

This article might be of interest to you (it taught me a good lesson): Link

Conservative · Oct 3, 2011

Catawba said:
I understand it enough that I know money taken in for Social Security was used to help fund optional wars so the rich could continue with their discounted tax rates, and that its time for the rich folks to pay that money back, rather than the seniors have to take the hit in reduced benefits.

SS rate payers did not create the nation's debt and they should not be made to take up the slack for the wealthiest who have benefited from their tax breaks for the last 30 years.

It does when people are using the national debt (most of which, would not exist without 30 years of tax breaks for the rich) as an excuse for further cutting away at the middle class benefits provided through SS and Medicare.

Yes, you can thank LBJ for putting SS on budget or did you forget? Your benefits haven't been reduced because of those wars but the SS IOU's need to be funded. You really need to educate yourself and stop making foolish statements. I am a senior, collecting SS and know what my SS amount was going to be long before the wars. That amount hasn't changed.

Tax cuts for the rich didn't cause the debt, spending in the name of compassion did, i.e. War on Poverty

Helix · Oct 3, 2011

Snevert said:
Geez. I'd spend another dollar on whatever product I'm buying if it's being made by an American instead of someone in a sweatshop or whatever in another country.

i would pay more for domestically / locally made goods. it's worth it.

since they shipped out most of the manufacturing jobs in my area, the roads are in bad shape, houses are empty and rotting, and more people are on government assistance. getting a TV for cheaper is not a good trade for vibrant community economics.

muRda · Oct 3, 2011

TurtleDude said:
sorry newbie

Obviously my first time handling a debate on an internet forum. You know, where some people look up readily-available facts to support their claims whereas others just think and type.

but I tire of the lefties whining that it is the fault of the rich that others are failures. Its not the fault of the rich that people are poor anymore than its the fault of a good student that others are failures or stupid.

The two of you really enjoy nothing more than writing off a point by spinning into some diatribe about how liberals are ruining the country. Make a point, don't tell me a story.

we have spent far too much time and energy excusing failure and sloth.

Pretty sure you're not the U.S. Department of Education.

Conservative · Oct 3, 2011

muRda said:
So it's fine for you to assume they do, but not for me to assume they don't? Bear the onus, my man.

C'mon, man, really? In the last post I specifically pointed out how you do nothing but degenerate any progress of a debate by spiraling into talking points and diving face-first into spreading your agenda without a safety cord.

This article might be of interest to you (it taught me a good lesson): Link

Newbie, I have been here for months, posting over and over again data from those non partisan sites. The best way for you to learn is to go to those sites and actually do research. If I do it for you then you learn nothing.

Your statement of what I do really just ignores what I post. The data is there for you to see and it is non partisan and actual data. The problem with going to those sites however is they backfire on liberals and normally shut them up. Since you aren't a liberal then feel free to use those sites for your own benefit. You will definitely learn something there that will benefit you in the debate.

Conservative · Oct 3, 2011

muRda said:
Obviously my first time handling a debate on an internet forum. You know, where some people look up readily-available facts to support their claims whereas others just think and type.

The two of you really enjoy nothing more than writing off a point by spinning into some diatribe about how liberals are ruining the country. Make a point, don't tell me a story.

Pretty sure you're not the U.S. Department of Education.

What exactly and specifically have we spun? Liberals are ruining the country and the date supports it. Obama record today, 2011.

Obama economic results in 2011, .4% GDP and 1.3% GDP growth in 2011, 25+ million unemployed or under employed Americans in 2011, 4 trillion added to the debt in less than 3 years, and a downgrade of the U.S. credit rating. Rising Misery index 7.83 to 12.67. 38-41% JAR and well over 50-55% disapproval ratings

TurtleDude · Oct 3, 2011

muRda said:
Obviously my first time handling a debate on an internet forum. You know, where some people look up readily-available facts to support their claims whereas others just think and type.

The two of you really enjoy nothing more than writing off a point by spinning into some diatribe about how liberals are ruining the country. Make a point, don't tell me a story.

Pretty sure you're not the U.S. Department of Education.

nah just a guy who has seen a few million of my tax dollars pissed away

muRda · Oct 3, 2011

Conservative said:
Newbie

I'm not entirely sure, but I think you guys are trying to be demeaning to me for joining an internet forum at a later time than you. If so, please excuse my lateness.

The best way for you to learn is to go to those sites and actually do research.

Did that three pages ago, where were you?

muRda said:
I said "much," not vast majority. 20% of the government budget goes to "Defense Discretionary." Mandatory spending makes up 55% of total expenditures, of which Social Security (35%), Medicare (27%), and Medicaid (13%) made up 76% (i.e. ~42% of the total spending) in 2011.

Congressional Budget Office - Budget and Economic Information

Defensive spending has increased to 2.25 times its amount in 2001 whereas it actually decreased in the 1990s. I'll give you one guess as to the last decade that saw similar growth.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/120xx/doc12039/HistoricalTables[1].pdf

So, does 20% of the country's major outlays constitute much of the Fed's expenditures?

If I do it for you then you learn nothing.

Um, no. I don't have to jump through the hoops of your endless conservative diatribes. If you'd like to get back to actually debating what I've posted (like the graph or anything else you've simply looked over), cool. Otherwise, have a good night.

Your statement of what I do really just ignores what I post.

Care to tell the story about Cuomo again?

Conservative · Oct 3, 2011

muRda said:
I'm not entirely sure, but I think you guys are trying to be demeaning to me for joining an internet forum at a later time than you. If so, please excuse my lateness.

Did that three pages ago, where were you?

Um, no. I don't have to jump through the hoops of your endless conservative diatribes. If you'd like to get back to actually debating what I've posted (like the graph or anything else you've simply looked over), cool. Otherwise, have a good night.

Care to tell the story about Cuomo again?

Would you explain to me why you use CBO numbers? Please explain to me what the CBO does and how accurate are they? Any idea why the defense Budget decreased in the 90's Think about it and get back to me.

Then tell me why SS and Medicare are even part of the budget today? Do you support that?

what is the purpose of the Federal Govt in the Libertarian world if not to defend this country. Doesn't it bother you that since Provide for the Common defense was in the preamble to the Constitution that only 20% of the budget is defense?

Interesting how when confused you make claims of "conservative diatribe" Is that the best you can do?

What is the Cuomo stance on taxes in NY? Do you have any idea why most of the jobs and most of the Fortune 500 companies have moved to Non income tax states?

Donc · Oct 3, 2011

muRda said:
I'm not entirely sure, but I think you guys are trying to be demeaning to me for joining an internet forum at a later time than you. If so, please excuse my lateness.

Did that three pages ago, where were you?

Um, no. I don't have to jump through the hoops of your endless conservative diatribes. If you'd like to get back to actually debating what I've posted (like the graph or anything else you've simply looked over), cool. Otherwise, have a good night.

Care to tell the story about Cuomo again?

Don't pay attentions to Conservative muRda, if you’ve seen one of his post you’ve seen them all.TD is here protecting the lucky sperm club. By the way welcome to DP.:2wave:

muRda · Oct 3, 2011

Conservative said:
Would you explain to me why you use CBO numbers? Please explain to me what the CBO does and how accurate are they?

CBO's mandate is to provide the Congress with:

Objective, nonpartisan, and timely analyses to aid in economic and budgetary decisions on the wide array of programs covered by the federal budget and

The information and estimates required for the Congressional budget process.

Congressional Budget Office - Fact Sheet

I use it because the budgetary numbers take into account other micro and macroeconomic factors other numbers usually don't from what I've noticed. And they often do comparisons between budgets and actual results.

Any idea why the defense Budget decreased in the 90's Think about it and get back to me.

Investing in the Middle East was exciting (Cold War), then boring, then exciting again (Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.)?

Then tell me why SS and Medicare are even part of the budget today? Do you support that?

As one of the more powerful nations in the world, if there is no duty to ensure the rights to all citizens hoped for us in the Constitution of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," then that is a failure of living up to the very ideals upon which this country was founded. What you see as wasteful spending on a lazy person, the liberal may see as spending on a mentally handicapped person. In a more grounded sense, the economy and society as a whole is worse off when its members are not contributing or are unable to. Society also owes a livelihood for those who become physically or mentally unable to contribute after they have spent their time in the working force (unless you want to just treat people like meat). The economic principle that gets stretched out to unjustifiable lengths by those on the right is freeloading, where an economic measure will always end up serving a portion not truly deserving of its creation.

what is the purpose of the Federal Govt in the Libertarian world if not to defend this country. Doesn't it bother you that since Provide for the Common defense was in the preamble to the Constitution that only 20% of the budget is defense?

I don't see how troops stationed internationally are defending this country. Also, relative to the military spending of other countries, I would think 10% would even be more than enough.

Interesting how when confused you make claims of "conservative diatribe" Is that the best you can do?

So confused.

What is the Cuomo stance on taxes in NY? Do you have any idea why most of the jobs and most of the Fortune 500 companies have moved to Non income tax states?

I'm probably going to look to move out of New York because it's expensive, too. That's usually what you get when you live near a major city in any country, let alone most populous.

Kushinator · Oct 3, 2011

TurtleDude said:
I believe what i say and I doubt you can disprove what I say or establish I am intellectually dishonest.

I doubt that the burden of proof resides on me (especially when you are the one making the claim). However, what i have stated cannot be refuted by you nor your ideology.

TurtleDude · Oct 3, 2011

Goldenboy219 said:
I doubt that the burden of proof resides on me (especially when you are the one making the claim). However, what i have stated cannot be refuted by you nor your ideology.

that's a rather obtuse way of saying what you attempt to say but then again I understand what libertarian means

Kushinator · Oct 3, 2011

TurtleDude said:
that's a rather obtuse way of saying what you attempt to say but then again I understand what libertarian means

It's the splittin truth! Income mobility will always diminish when unsustainable economic rents are extracted. Then when the labor market move to a negative equilibrium, income mobility is further damaged.

Let me know when "understanding what libertarian means" improves your ability to discuss the political economy.

muRda · Oct 3, 2011

Conservative said:
Liberals are ruining the country and the date supports it.

I'd love to see some information to back up that claim rather than simply data. And here's why...

Obama economic results in 2011, .4% GDP and 1.3% GDP growth in 2011, 25+ million unemployed or under employed Americans in 2011, 4 trillion added to the debt in less than 3 years, and a downgrade of the U.S. credit rating. Rising Misery index 7.83 to 12.67. 38-41% JAR and well over 50-55% disapproval ratings

...causation does not follow from correlation. It is virtually impossible to point to one person (even the President's powers are limited) and attach such significance on that person for something so vast and with millions of variables such as the economy, especially with its notable susceptibility to ebb and flow.

Cecil James · Oct 3, 2011

Conservative said:
What exactly and specifically have we spun? Liberals are ruining the country and the date supports it. Obama record today, 2011.

Obama economic results in 2011, .4% GDP and 1.3% GDP growth in 2011, 25+ million unemployed or under employed Americans in 2011, 4 trillion added to the debt in less than 3 years, and a downgrade of the U.S. credit rating. Rising Misery index 7.83 to 12.67. 38-41% JAR and well over 50-55% disapproval ratings

Nonsense. Liberals have tried to run a country and conservatives have done what they can to impede any progress. They are more bent on trying to make the president lose his job than help Americans regain theirs.

Kushinator · Oct 3, 2011

muRda said:
...causation does not follow from correlation. It is virtually impossible to point to one person (even the President's powers are limited) and attach such significance on that person for something so vast and with millions of variables such as the economy, especially with its notable susceptibility to ebb and flow.

You are wasting your time. Statistical analysis is in no way part of the extreme right's repertoire.

muRda · Oct 3, 2011

Goldenboy219 said:
You are wasting your time. Statistical analysis is in no way part of the extreme right's repertoire.

If there's no time for teaching, there's no time for learning.

eace

TurtleDude · Oct 3, 2011

muRda said:
If there's no time for teaching, there's no time for learning.eace

I always get a chuckle when those who tend to have failed personal economics 101 lecture those who got an A in that subject. And it appears that extreme right means anyone who doesn't worship the class warfare crap that Obama and his fraudulent "saviors of the poor" spew

muRda · Oct 3, 2011

TurtleDude said:
I always get a chuckle when those who tend to have failed personal economics 101 lecture those who got an A in that subject. And it appears that extreme right means anyone who doesn't worship the class warfare crap that Obama and his fraudulent "saviors of the poor" spew

I bet you've got my house up on Google Maps, you just know so much about me.

Drop the class warfare, sound byte. You're only kidding yourself. There is a large gap of wealth separating the top 10% from the bottom 90% in this country. Until you would like to actually rationalize and explain 1) why that is 2) why it's OK and 3) source anything you say on the matter, I couldn't honestly care less what you think. Because you obviously have no problem conjuring up a thought in your mind about who I am and what I've been through when you don't know a single thing about me.

Thunder · Oct 3, 2011

TurtleDude said:
...And it appears that extreme right means anyone who doesn't worship the class warfare crap that Obama and his fraudulent "saviors of the poor" spew

that's ironic.

Snevert · Oct 4, 2011

TurtleDude said:
I always get a chuckle when those who tend to have failed personal economics 101 lecture those who got an A in that subject. And it appears that extreme right means anyone who doesn't worship the class warfare crap that Obama and his fraudulent "saviors of the poor" spew

There is NO class warfare! It's a stupid term that right wing-nuts like to throw around when they get cornered.

washunut · Oct 4, 2011

Snevert said:
There is NO class warfare! It's a stupid term that right wing-nuts like to throw around when they get cornered.

Let's not forget that there is also no war on terrorism!

White House Tax Plan Would Ask More of Millionaires

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