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Eurozone crisis could rip EU apart: officials

American said:
I trust you'll stay out of the economic forum from now on since you have to ask me a question like that. If you promise and swear to it right here, I'll try to answer your question. If you promise and ever go back in there, you have to leave this site forever.
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More avoidance.. why is it you cant explain yourself?
 
American said:
You don't know Pete. He gets what I said, he's just playing difficult.
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No, I do NOT understand what the hell you are talking about. Hence I asked you to explain it.

You can't cheat the laws of economics just like you can't cheat the laws of physics.
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Again, WHAT law of economics are they trying to cheat..

He just wants to play all defensive over Europe, because he hates America and has been criticizing to us for years. Now that Europe is ****ing up, he looks hypocritical.
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The only one looking like a fool here is you, by not backing up your claim of "cheating the law of economics" with an explanation on what the hell you mean.

Also I am in no way defensive over Europe, but I do believe in a balanced and fair shake for all and that is seriously lacking especially from people like you

Nor do I hate America. I hate hypocritical right wingers in US politics, but that is not the USA. I also hate communists, does that mean I hate all Chinese and Cubans?

So again ... answer the question I have asked you time and time again and is a basis for this whole thread.
 
Helix said:
The outsourcing of industry to China in exchange for artificially cheap goods and deficit funding was a poor trade for the US and Europe.
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This.

However, the overall problem with both the US and the EU is that they have gone crazy on credit. While some debt is good, the amount that PIGS as well as the US has is extremely unsustainable. In response to their massive debt crisis that was caused by the financial elite in the Europe, which originally started out in Greece (The Great Global Debt Depression: It’s All Greek To Me « Andrew Gavin Marshall) has led to speculation that the Eurozone will fall (Why the Eurozone Must Fail - YouTube). In the US the constant wars have led to a massive increase in the debt (US response to 9/11 contributed to causes of current debt crisis - CSMonitor.com) and thus many have been pushing for austerity in both Europe (Europe's new austerity measures — EUbusiness - legal, business and economic news from Europe and the EU) and the US (Pelosi: "It Is Clear We Must Enter an Era of Austerity"). However, this won't solve the problems of the debt crisis. as austerity measures can be quite troublesome (IMF Report: Austerity Measures Hurt Income, Make Long-Term Unemployment Worse) and could potentially lead to "disaster." (UN study says austerity measures in US, Europe may lead to 'disaster' - The China Post), and are also, not to mention, ironic (The Cruel Irony of Austerity: "Destroying People's Lives").
 
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Camlon said:
True, but in theory their original plan would have worked.

However, they greatly underestimated the crisis because Europeans like PeteEU are never able to admit that Europe may have problems.
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May? Of course Europe has problems.. they have always been around and I have never denied that. In fact I have pointed many out in many discussions on the subject. The difference is blowing those problems out of proportions or taking a realistic view of things. Right now many things are blown way out of proportions... take the mantra been spewed around by many media outlets.. "Spanish debt problems"... it is idiotic.. Spain has the lowest debt vs GDP levels of all major economies! And if 60% debt vs GDP is a "debt problem" now days, the god help us all since most nations have over 60% debt .... If anyone has debt problems it is the Irish with their 130+% debt vs GDP and massive private debt also. Now that is a debt problem.

They also failed to take into account the different cultures.
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Hardly... you dont know the EU then. It is nothing but taking other cultures into consideration. We move the freaking parliament twice a year because of different cultures.. The legislation implemented in the EU has bits and pieces from all different cultures... hell our human rights rules come from British cultural bias.. which is ironic considering it is the Brits that now hate that human rights rules so much and want to get rid of them...

Europeans have the thinking that we are all the same people, but some people are lucky and are born in rich countries while others are born poor. This is not true, culture is a very big influence on our behavior. In effect, by not taking into account Greek opposition to any reform, they didn't implement the necessary changes.
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Again incorrect. It is people like you and other EU sceptics that live in the past and refuse to adapt to changing times. Yes we are many different cultures and different peoples but we also have a lot in common and those commonalities become more and more, and I suspect it scares people like you and other EU sceptics. The differences in culture are a strength not a negative thing.

I have asked a lot of EU sceptics over time... what is it you hate about the EU... and as of yet, no one has come with a comprehensive explanation that holds up to the facts. Maybe you can give it a try.
 
PeteEU said:
May? Of course Europe has problems.. they have always been around and I have never denied that. In fact I have pointed many out in many discussions on the subject. The difference is blowing those problems out of proportions or taking a realistic view of things. Right now many things are blown way out of proportions... take the mantra been spewed around by many media outlets.. "Spanish debt problems"... it is idiotic.. Spain has the lowest debt vs GDP levels of all major economies! And if 60% debt vs GDP is a "debt problem" now days, the god help us all since most nations have over 60% debt .... If anyone has debt problems it is the Irish with their 130+% debt vs GDP and massive private debt also. Now that is a debt problem.
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Yes you have. Spain may have a low debt burden, but they have a high deficit, high unemployment and is not trusted by the market. This means they are not safe. If we experience another crisis, unemployment will be too much of a burden on Spain. It is already 21.2%.


Again incorrect. It is people like you and other EU sceptics that live in the past and refuse to adapt to changing times. Yes we are many different cultures and different peoples but we also have a lot in common and those commonalities become more and more, and I suspect it scares people like you and other EU sceptics. The differences in culture are a strength not a negative thing.
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This comment here really proves what I am talking about. When I comment that Europeans don't understand that cultures are different and need different policies, PeteEU reacts with saying I'm backwards and don't like differences in cultures. Never mind I live in one of the most multicultural cities in the world, and it's working. European cities are divided between cultures, and the different cultures want nothing to do with each other. If you see an immigrant with an Europeans, it's probably through government ads.

Differences in cultures are a strength, but only if you realize that there is no one-size fit all solution. What works in Ireland, is not going to work in Greece. To bomb Libya, supposedly to liberate them is not going to work, because they are not Danish! This is not about racism, this is about idealism vs realism. Europeans need to get back to the real world, and find practical solutions to their own problems. They need to realize that different cultures need different solutions.


I have asked a lot of EU sceptics over time... what is it you hate about the EU... and as of yet, no one has come with a comprehensive explanation that holds up to the facts. Maybe you can give it a try.
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My major problem with the EU is it's lack of connection with the people of the EU. In every single country that had a referendum on Lisbon treaty voted against it, it still got adopted. EU feels like a undemocratic body that impose laws on your country and destroy it's sovereignty.

I think EU is way to idealistic. There was no need for a common currency, and a first year economist would understand what's wrong with having a single currency without a fiscal union. They still adopted it for idealistic reasons, because they assumed a fiscal union was next. I find it despicable that they try to use the crisis as an excuse to impose a fiscal union on the member states.

I think EU is bureaucratic and lacks leadership. The only thing they have managed in Greece is to make Greeks hate EU and cause a division between the north and the south. EU needs to realize countries are independent, and have their own laws. To work together is good, but it has to go through bilateral agreements, and not through force.
 
Yes, the eurozone is in trouble, but as I see it, this is because of too few European integration, not because of too much. I'm German and I wouldn't mind "Eurobonds" or any other plan to support "lazy PIIGS" with "precious German money", as long as it is workable and sustainable, and as long as there are incentives to avoid free-riding.

The only reason against it is the question whether you are a nationalist and reject European identity, or if you feel sufficiently European: Within Germany, it's common already richer states support the poorer states. High debt states such as Bremen or the five new east German states have always been financially supported by the wealthier German states -- why should I take offense, as long as I believe it benefits fellow Germans? But I ask myself, why should I, a (West-)Berliner, should feel any closer to a south-German Swabian or Bavarian, or an east German, although I have friends in Spain and France I get along with personally much better, than with many other Germans?

Hell, the Swabians from Baden-Württemberg usually really suck, on a personal level, so why should they rather get money than Greek people? ;)

Also, I don't buy this whole "the cultural differences are too big" argument. I don't think Germans, Greek or Spanish people are further apart from one another culturally, than, say, welfare recipients in deep south Mississippi, a Mormon in Utah, a porn producer in California, an African-American blue-collar worker in Detroit, a Bible freak in Alaska and a hip New Yorker. Somehow, the latter do well within a united currency zone, despite all cultural differences.

It works in the US, among other things because there no different interest rates in the different states (else, the US would have the same problems with states such as Mississippi or Utah, as the Eurozone has with Greece).

Also, although introducing the euro was maybe a mistake, the way it was introduced (without a sufficiently harmonized fiscal policy), I don't think any European in his right mind could believe abandoning the EU altogether could be a good idea. It was and still is the only reasonable answer on Europe's bloody history, despite all of its flaws. If you see a better answer, let me know.
 
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American said:
Link





So who still wants to be like Europe? Who wants to be like China, who thinks buying up Euros and such is a great idea?

CHINA China buying Euro debt - Asia News

Irony Behind China's European Bond Buying - Seeking Alpha

A New World Financial Order: Why is China Buying EU Sovereign Bonds? - Larry McDonald

China is participating in a scheme to cheat the laws of economics, and all they are doing is delaying the inevidable.
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I didn't think it would work out. Well not with the Euro anyway. Too diverse of economies trying to be tied together. And that was even without the complications of Greece lying and getting locked into more than favorable exchange rates forcing Germany later to have to bail them out or let the whole thing crash and burn. Should never cede control of your currency to some foreign interest.
 
German guy said:
Yes, the eurozone is in trouble, but as I see it, this is because of too few European integration, not because of too much. I'm German and I wouldn't mind "Eurobonds" or any other plan to support "lazy PIIGS" with "precious German money", as long as it is workable and sustainable, and as long as there are incentives to avoid free-riding.
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What kind of incentives would the Eurobonds create? It's not a viable solution, and will only cause the whole euro to get dragged down along with Greece.

Also, the fact is. Most Europeans don't want a fiscal union. They want EU to be an economical treaty, not a political union. Should we ignore them? (yes, I know they can vote, but without interest it is almost impossible to know what your candidate is voting for. Also, parts of the EU is undemocratic.)

Also, I don't buy this whole "the cultural differences are too big" argument. I don't think Germans, Greek or Spanish people are further apart from one another culturally, than, say, welfare recipients in deep south Mississippi, a Mormon in Utah, a porn producer in California, an African-American blue-collar worker in Detroit, a Bible freak in Alaska and a hip New Yorker. Somehow, the latter do well within a united currency zone, despite all cultural differences.
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You know that cultural differences are what's causing the problems in the US? Because of cultural differences, no one becomes happy with the leadership. That's why I'm in favor of giving power back to the states.

Also, although introducing the euro was maybe a mistake, the way it was introduced (without a sufficiently harmonized fiscal policy), I don't think any European in his right mind could believe abandoning the EU altogether could be a good idea. It was and still is the only reasonable answer on Europe's bloody history, despite all of its flaws. If you see a better answer, let me know.
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There is nothing wrong with the EU in principle. However, the problem is the idea that we always have to get more and more integrated. People want their own country to decide their own politics. Haven't you noticed how more integrated EU becomes, how more people hate EU? In Norway, normally about 50% support the EU. Right now, only 30% support the EU. For the ones under 30 it is 80% who says no.
 
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Camlon said:
What kind of incentives would the Eurobonds create? It's not a viable solution, and will only cause the whole euro to get dragged down along with Greece.
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I don't pretend to be an expert on fiscal policy, but obviously, there are mechanisms within united currency zones with very different regions (such as the US, for example, or the different German federal states) which work fairly well. I don't see why such mechanisms can't be applied to the eurozone.

Also, the fact is. Most Europeans don't want a fiscal union. They want EU to be an economical treaty, not a political union. Should we ignore them? (yes, I know they can vote, but without interest it is almost impossible to know what your candidate is voting for. Also, parts of the EU is undemocratic.)
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That's a good point. I am very fond of the idea of a politically united Europe, and I know many others in other EU countries are too, but I do acknowledge that many people are opposed to it (and both sides hold these opinions not due to rational, objective reasons, but it's a question of subjective identity -- either you feel closer to the nation, or to your European identity, much like there are Americans who rather feel "American" or emphasize their identity as citizen of their respective state).

I agree, as long as too many people in Europe place nationalism over European identity, a closer political union would create a lot of problems. It's not a good thing to force this on unwilling people.

You know that cultural differences are what's causing the problems in the US? Because of cultural differences, no one becomes happy with the leadership. That's why I'm in favor of giving power back to the states.
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That's interesting. So far, I was under the impression Americans are fairly proud of their national identity, despite all differences, including the "melting pot" or "salad bowl" stuff. But maybe it would be better for the US to abolish the national government and let all states go on on their own?

There is nothing wrong with the EU in principle. However, the problem is the idea that we always have to get more and more integrated. People want their own country to decide their own politics. Haven't you noticed how more integrated EU becomes, how more people hate EU? In Norway, normally about 50% support the EU. Right now, only 30% support the EU. For the ones under 30 it is 80% who says no.
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I don't think it's true in general. The EU has so far been rather successful and popular when it delivered a popular output. But now, in the current crisis, when the flaws become obvious and the EU fails to deliver good answers, the support is dropping.

But your point is well taken. There is no sense in building a more integrated EU over the heads of many people who disagree.
 
German guy said:
That's interesting. So far, I was under the impression Americans are fairly proud of their national identity, despite all differences, including the "melting pot" or "salad bowl" stuff. But maybe it would be better for the US to abolish the national government and let all states go on on their own?
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Americans are of course proud of their national identity. I would never support to abolish the federal government, just transfer some of it's powers to the states. Different from Europe, there is a strong American identity, so the national government can have more power.

However, America is also a very politically divided country. It would benefit greatly if they could bring some of the powers back to the states. The federal government should be involved in stimulus spending and foreign policy. Not if gays can marry or not! Or how many tests the students are supposed to have!


I don't pretend to be an expert on fiscal policy, but obviously, there are mechanisms within united currency zones with very different regions (such as the US, for example, or the different German federal states) which work fairly well. I don't see why such mechanisms can't be applied to the eurozone.
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US is a fiscal union. Hence, they can easily punish a state who doesn't follow regulations. Also, the states have much lower debt ratios than European countries.
 
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Camlon said:
Yes you have. Spain may have a low debt burden, but they have a high deficit, high unemployment and is not trusted by the market. This means they are not safe. If we experience another crisis, unemployment will be too much of a burden on Spain. It is already 21.2%.
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Wait a minute.. here comes in the "realistic" aspect. First I aint Spanish but Danish. But other than that, Spain's deficit is going to be about 6%ish this year. In contrast the UK is at 10.4ish% this year, with the US at 10.8% this year according to the IMF. So claiming the deficit is high is not exactly true.. sure it is over the 3% threshold of the Eurozone, but so was Germany's last year.

Now unemployment.. yes it is 21%, but what the numbers dont tell you is that even when Spain was growing as the fastest in Europe, the unemployment was around 10%. Spain has big structural problems in the labour market and the politicians are attempting to correct said problems. It takes time no matter how you slice and dice it. On top of that there is fraud, which is quite considerable. According to an investigation by the Labour ministry, at least 5% of all claims are fraudulent, and at least 25% do not meet the requirements in continuing the claims (doing job courses, searching for jobs and so on). And despite this, Spain has managed to grow, and even in certain quarters out grow the UK.

So if you look realistically on Spain then yes there are issues, but they are in no way as bad as many of the media and so called experts claim since they often have zero clue on what they are talking about. For example, not long ago I read an article (cant remember where) about the crisis where the person in question reported that a "major Spanish bank" was in trouble and named this bank. Now the article was boring as hell (which explains why I cant remember where I saw it) but the comment stuck out because I had never heard of this "major Spanish bank". I later found out that the so called major Spanish bank, was in fact a regional bank in the north of the country and was hardly major. This is the kind of coverage Spain gets.. inaccurate and damaging.. just as the never ending "massive debt" comments... it is simply factually WRONG.

This comment here really proves what I am talking about. When I comment that Europeans don't understand that cultures are different and need different policies, PeteEU reacts with saying I'm backwards and don't like differences in cultures. Never mind I live in one of the most multicultural cities in the world, and it's working. European cities are divided between cultures, and the different cultures want nothing to do with each other. If you see an immigrant with an Europeans, it's probably through government ads.
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Seriously... you are comparing a society that is made of immigrants to countries and cities in said countries where the people in Auckland come from? Come on...

Differences in cultures are a strength, but only if you realize that there is no one-size fit all solution. What works in Ireland, is not going to work in Greece. To bomb Libya, supposedly to liberate them is not going to work, because they are not Danish! This is not about racism, this is about idealism vs realism. Europeans need to get back to the real world, and find practical solutions to their own problems. They need to realize that different cultures need different solutions.
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So let me get this straight... you are saying because of culture differences, then the many things the EU does can not work? Name some.

And yes, the Irish problem is different than the Greek, but ultimately how the situations are handled must be approximately the same since there are only so many different things that can be done from an EU level. You do realize that the countries are independent right with their own laws and regulations right? If there had been a common banking regulation across the EU, then the Irish banking screw up would never have happened... but thanks to the UK, that never happened.

My major problem with the EU is it's lack of connection with the people of the EU.
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I agree, it is a problem. However it is not the EUs fault, but that of the people. They are the ones who dont seek out the information needed, much like they do on the domestic front as well btw. Now that is most likely an apathy for the EU and politics in general. There is also a factor of "the EU is so far away", a similar issue you get in the US and elsewhere with large geographical areas.

In every single country that had a referendum on Lisbon treaty voted against it, it still got adopted.
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Sorry that is factually wrong. One nation had a referendum because it is required by its constitution. The Lisbon Treaty was rejected. Ireland went back to the EU and made changes to the Treaty and put it up for a new vote and here it passed. All other countries ratified the Treaty changes because the changes were not so big that it would trigger referendums in many countries.

Now I am personally against the Lisbon treaty because it is a half hearted post-it treaty and not a brand new treaty that reflects the EU today. But they tried a new treaty but that was rejected... so be it.

EU feels like a undemocratic body that impose laws on your country and destroy it's sovereignty.
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LOL impose laws? Do you even know how the EU works? Like it or not, no laws are imposed on anyone and all countries via their representatives in government and the EU parliament are part of the whole process including approving legislation in very few areas that every country has agreed should be decided on EU level instead of national level.

Can you give an example of an "imposed law"?

I think EU is way to idealistic. There was no need for a common currency, and a first year economist would understand what's wrong with having a single currency without a fiscal union. They still adopted it for idealistic reasons, because they assumed a fiscal union was next. I find it despicable that they try to use the crisis as an excuse to impose a fiscal union on the member states.
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Oh I agree, they are rushing many things. And I agree that they should have put in place the building blocks for a fiscal union when they made the Euro. However because they are rushing some things and not others, then we are in the situation we are today. But that does not change the fact, that having a common currency in the European area is a great thing for consumers and business.... I should know since I have lived in both a Euro and non Euro area country. Companies exploit the currency difference to exploit the consumer. The price difference between a Coca Cola in Germany, France, Spain is not that big, but when you go to Denmark the price difference is huge. Why? because when you go buy a 1 Euro cola in Germany then that same cola costs 1.5 to 2 Euros in Denmark.. in Danish KR that is. Ironically when news media started to report on this issue, the price of Coal fell in Denmark but it is still higher (even without VAT and other taxes)

I think EU is bureaucratic and lacks leadership.
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Lacks leadership yes... but here we again come back to the question.. do you understand how the EU works? Does it need leadership like the American president in the current form of the EU? I say no.

bureaucratic... yes and no. But that is for a thread on it self. Dont forget, that most of the things the EU does would have to be done any ways by national governments.. just saying.

The only thing they have managed in Greece is to make Greeks hate EU and cause a division between the north and the south.
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Greeks dont hate the EU.. they hate the bankers and Greek politicians who got them in the mess. Sure the EU is not as popular as it once was because of the demands put down to bail out Greece, but ultimately the Greeks blame the bankers and their own politicians far more than the EU. The Greeks dont want to agree to the terms, because they dont want to be the ones to pay for the mess the bankers and Politicians have made, and THAT I do understand fully.

As for the division between north and south.. it has always been there, just as there has been a division between the UK and everyone else. The idea is that division over time becomes less and less and frankly it had been going quite well till the yanks ****ed up the world economy.

EU needs to realize countries are independent, and have their own laws.
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Err yes.... do you even know what the EU does and how it works? Do you think that the EU dictates things like labour laws, criminal laws, social laws and so on? What do you think the EU "does"?

To work together is good, but it has to go through bilateral agreements, and not through force.
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No one is forcing anyone in the EU as I have stated over and over again.

As for bilateral agreements.... we dont live in the 1800s any more. Bilateral agreements are getting less and less on a global scale, since most agreements are done within some sort of global organisation, may it be WHO, UN or the International Postal Union. Plus from a beaucratic aspect.. bilateral agreements suck donkey balls since they require an army of civil servants not only to negotiate but keep in check. With the EU (UN, WHO, Postal Union, NATO and so on) you have the possibility to negotiate with many at the same time to find a consensus that benefits everyone and creates a single market where goods and people can move as freely as possible.

I for one am damn glad that the EU has put in many standardisations across the continent which mean that among other things countries cant exploit local laws for economic benefit and it makes my life easier. For one I dont have to have a electrical socket converter when I go from Denmark to Spain, France, Germany and else where.. yes I do when I have to go to the UK, but that is the UKs problem that they are so pigheaded. I also love how the EU/EEC forced open our telecommunications markets and many other markets. No bilateral agreements could have accomplished that. I also love the idea that I can go to any EU country and set up a business or set down roots... again bilateral agreements here would be one hell of a mess.
 
Camlon said:
US is a fiscal union. Hence, they can easily punish a state who doesn't follow regulations. Also, the states have much lower debt ratios than European countries.
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Err.. not exactly per say. Depends on how you measure it. Alaska for example has a 75% debt vs GDP level depending if include unfunded state pensions.

States

And in the end, the US federal government will pick up the tab of any state defaulting, else there is no use for the union.

It is not all as black and white as you
 
PeteEU said:
It is not all as black and white as you
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Suppose to be a "say" after the you.. just noticed it but the time to edit had expired :) Sorry for the typo.
 
PeteEU said:
Wait a minute.. here comes in the "realistic" aspect. First I aint Spanish but Danish. But other than that, Spain's deficit is going to be about 6%ish this year. In contrast the UK is at 10.4ish% this year, with the US at 10.8% this year according to the IMF. So claiming the deficit is high is not exactly true.. sure it is over the 3% threshold of the Eurozone, but so was Germany's last year.
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I know you don't like it, but different laws of economics apply for UK, and US. Especially since they can print money.

Spain is part of the southern European countries and can not print money. This means that Spain is not safe.


So if you look realistically on Spain then yes there are issues, but they are in no way as bad as many of the media and so called experts claim since they often have zero clue on what they are talking about. For example, not long ago I read an article (cant remember where) about the crisis where the person in question reported that a "major Spanish bank" was in trouble and named this bank. Now the article was boring as hell (which explains why I cant remember where I saw it) but the comment stuck out because I had never heard of this "major Spanish bank". I later found out that the so called major Spanish bank, was in fact a regional bank in the north of the country and was hardly major. This is the kind of coverage Spain gets.. inaccurate and damaging.. just as the never ending "massive debt" comments... it is simply factually WRONG.
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Yep, media bias sucks. But media always does that to everything.


Seriously... you are comparing a society that is made of immigrants to countries and cities in said countries where the people in Auckland come from? Come on...
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You know that back in the 70s, New Zealand was a British and racist society. However, today New Zealand is a multicultural society where unlike Europe the different groups live together. But my point was, you can not say I'm afraid of different cultures when I live in Auckland.



So let me get this straight... you are saying because of culture differences, then the many things the EU does can not work? Name some.
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I already did. Libya and the bailout of Greece.


Sorry that is factually wrong. One nation had a referendum because it is required by its constitution. The Lisbon Treaty was rejected. Ireland went back to the EU and made changes to the Treaty and put it up for a new vote and here it passed. All other countries ratified the Treaty changes because the changes were not so big that it would trigger referendums in many countries.

Now I am personally against the Lisbon treaty because it is a half hearted post-it treaty and not a brand new treaty that reflects the EU today. But they tried a new treaty but that was rejected... so be it.
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The reason it passed was because they forced it through and made sure no one had a referendum. There was votes on similar treaties in France and Netherlands, and they both voted no.


LOL impose laws? Do you even know how the EU works? Like it or not, no laws are imposed on anyone and all countries via their representatives in government and the EU parliament are part of the whole process including approving legislation in very few areas that every country has agreed should be decided on EU level instead of national level.

Can you give an example of an "imposed law"?
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I don't think you get it. Yes, the politicians get to take part in deciding the outcome. But it's not a people's decision, and often not even the country's politicans decision. That's what I mean by imposed. I think the power should be as close to the individual as possible. I do not want a world government.


The price difference between a Coca Cola in Germany, France, Spain is not that big, but when you go to Denmark the price difference is huge. Why? because when you go buy a 1 Euro cola in Germany then that same cola costs 1.5 to 2 Euros in Denmark.. in Danish KR that is. Ironically when news media started to report on this issue, the price of Coal fell in Denmark but it is still higher (even without VAT and other taxes)
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I have no idea what you are ranting about. Transfering money, cost very little if you transfer big amounts. There are probably completely different reasons for the price increase. For instance taxes, or high wages. I can expect that Denmark has a high sugar tax and companies also pay taxes on their electricity, and have to pay property taxes.

Here I can buy a coke for less than an Euro. No other country has the NZ dollar.





As for the division between north and south.. it has always been there, just as there has been a division between the UK and everyone else. The idea is that division over time becomes less and less and frankly it had been going quite well till the yanks ****ed up the world economy.
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And now it's going really badly. EUs policies during the crisis has widen the conflict.




I for one am damn glad that the EU has put in many standardisations across the continent which mean that among other things countries cant exploit local laws for economic benefit and it makes my life easier. For one I dont have to have a electrical socket converter when I go from Denmark to Spain, France, Germany and else where.. yes I do when I have to go to the UK, but that is the UKs problem that they are so pigheaded. I also love how the EU/EEC forced open our telecommunications markets and many other markets. No bilateral agreements could have accomplished that. I also love the idea that I can go to any EU country and set up a business or set down roots... again bilateral agreements here would be one hell of a mess.
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You are wrong. Bilateral agreements are the normality around the world. When I say bilateral agreements, it only means both sides agree. It can include more than two countries. You can also agree on having the same electrical socket converter, or open your telecommunications markets. You say EU is a good thing, because it forced EU-countries to open up their telecommunications markets, but what about democracy?

Bilateral Agreements are working fine and it's not a mess. What is a mess, is the whole EU.
 
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