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Working-age poor population highest since '60s

Helix said:
Any manufacturer who wants tariff free access to our markets should have to meet the OSHA and emissions standards that American manufacturers are subject to.

Additionally, we have enough crumbling infrastructure to keep Americans employed for years to come. We also have a need for an expanded electrical grid to help us transition from oil. And we need people working on the next domestic source of energy. These initiatives would help to employ more Americans.
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I agree 100% about infrastructure spending, and I think we should be spending more on alternative energy research and production.

I sympathize with the tariff argument but I can't say I agree 100%. I think we can pressure them to improve working conditions but I don't think it's quite fair to require them to adopt our same standards -- any more than we should be required to adopt Germany's standards (yea! six weeks of vacation!). The Chinese and other developing countries have a legitimate argument insofar as we built our industrial strength with the advantage of much lower standards than we have now. They can argue that their people are better off, on the whole, being fully employed in less than ideal factories than they would be slogging around in rice fields.
 
I think that our OSHA and emissions requirements are not too high a bar. And it's not as if we'd be forcing anyone to adopt them. They could still export to the US and simply pay the tariff.
 
ric27 said:
I'll probably get some flak for sayin this but......

The Chinese and Indians work harder, work smarter, live in countries with vastly lower inflation and do not have the same sense of entitlement as Americans do. Parts from China that are 1/10th the price of American manufactuers and the bull**** notion that Chinese stuff is crap simply no longer applies.
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To note

Some Chinese work harder and smarter, not all. Plenty of Chinese are in unproductive positions just to ensure they have jobs. The couple of grocery stores I was in had clerks at the end of every isle, and at nearly every produce table. Meaning at least 3 times the people that a comparable store in Canada would have. Of course they have 40 times the population.

Re inflation. In both India and China inflation is far higher then it is in the US or Canada, official or otherwise. The main difference is that at least in China (coastal) wages are increasing fast as well. Entitlement does not exist in China only because the government does not provide much in the way of a safety net. If you dont have family and lose your way to make an income you are screwed. Families tend to be tighter in China then in the US with 3-4 generations often living in the same house.

As for Chinese goods, it truely depends on the company, you can get high quality goods from China, or you can get garbage from China. It truely depends on what the customer wants. If they focus on just price, they will get garbage. If you focus on quality, first the Chinese companies can produce it as well still at a lower cost then other countries
 
Your Chinese product costs are so much less because of a lot of factors that weight the balance. Depending on the product, they may use slave labor. We don't. Even paid labor is paid far less than what our workers are paid. Communist China provides "free medical care" and "retirement" benefits that would be unacceptable to our people. What we provide costs more, but is superior. The fact is, it would be illegal to run a business in the US the way it is run in China.

We support capitalism and a free market. In theory, I think, we thought....the more exposure slave people have to a free society, the more dissatisfied they become until eventually, they overthrow their government. Trouble is, Chinese capitalism is a whole different breed because of the socialism and kinda ****ed up that prognostication

Meanwhile, we dump billions and billions of dollars into the Chinese economy, which they in turn use to purchase military technology from abroad and improve their own production capability.

Yeah, global economic practices and inequities will eventually normalize. People in other countries will start making more money. Businesses that keep on operating in America will lean out and drop things like expensive benefits. There will be less of vacuum in business. However, this will literally take many years and there are going to be some tough times in between ...

No matter how you slice it, it's a tough sell
 
AdamT said:
The problem with that statement is that we're manufacturing more now than we ever have. But because of computers and automation, manufacturing supports only a fraction of the employment that it once did. So what should be do? Tell manufacturers that they can't use computers and automated assembly lines? It's not going to work, any more than tariffs will work. What we need to do is develop and export intellectual capital.
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Most everyone will completely ignore this true argument and keep pining about off shoring, when manufacturing is still being done in the states.
 
lpast said:
Theres 3.5 million less manufacturing jobs today than there were in 2000...the bulk of the jobs went to china
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In down economies, employers look to streamline operations including, designing more ergonomic work cells to increase efficiency, adding more automation to the work cell to decrease labor costs, among other things.

It's not always going to China.
 
ric27 said:
Your Chinese product costs are so much less because of a lot of factors that weight the balance. Depending on the product, they may use slave labor. We don't. Even paid labor is paid far less than what our workers are paid. Communist China provides "free medical care" and "retirement" benefits that would be unacceptable to our people. What we provide costs more, but is superior. The fact is, it would be illegal to run a business in the US the way it is run in China.

We support capitalism and a free market. In theory, I think, we thought....the more exposure slave people have to a free society, the more dissatisfied they become until eventually, they overthrow their government. Trouble is, Chinese capitalism is a whole different breed because of the socialism and kinda ****ed up that prognostication

Meanwhile, we dump billions and billions of dollars into the Chinese economy, which they in turn use to purchase military technology from abroad and improve their own production capability.

Yeah, global economic practices and inequities will eventually normalize. People in other countries will start making more money. Businesses that keep on operating in America will lean out and drop things like expensive benefits. There will be less of vacuum in business. However, this will literally take many years and there are going to be some tough times in between ...

No matter how you slice it, it's a tough sell
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The chinese companies we deal with dont use slave labour but have environmental and safety standards that would get shut down in seconds in NA or Europe. We purchase agriculture chemicals from China (active molecules generally). From what a senior manager reported that the dust clouds within the factories could prevent a person from seeing across the factory to the other side. For clean up, water was sprayed to collect the dust and it was pumped outside of the factory and not collected. Meaning directly into the local water system. Things though are improving, such practices are being shutdown by the various governments in China, generally due to public complaints. A large expensive factory making a chemical for the plastics industry in Dalian was closed due to massive public protests. Dalian though is a coastal city and as such one of the wealthier areas of China. The interior is poorer and the ability for those areas to shut down such factories is far lower currently.
 
I think one of the best things we could do to get this country going again is to ignore all polls. FFS, do we really need a poll fore everything? Too many are biased and the results manufactured for one side or the other. I'll bet if we gave up polls for a month everyone's disposition would improve. We could probably muster up a little optimism and work harder to make changes ourselves. Polls basically tell us "give up, all hope is lost". I hate polls!
 
ric27 said:
The sheer cost of funding retirement plans, most of all medical benefits, does weigh heavy on America. Simple ecomonics will dictate that the burden of these costs render companies uncompetative in the global economy. It's only going to get worse as the bulk of the baby boomers retire over the next couple of years.

As crude as this may sound....but welcome to global free market capitalism. We all voted for it. We put free market capitalism on the agenda and US entrepreneurs are taking advantage of it.

Can you blame them?
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Yes I can, because it's just well....it's just mean.
 
American said:
Yes I can, because it's just well....it's just mean.
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Mean?

Capitalism is about finding business opportunities and, well... capitalizing on them.

It's basic corporate structure 101; the management of a corporation answers to that corporation's shareholders. Those shareholders are motivatd purely by profit.

An enlightened manager must be smart enough to realize that to make money, he/she needs to take care of his/her employees, who in turn take great care of customers who, in turn, are the actual ones who make, the stockholders happy.

The sooner one recognizes those facts, the better because continuing to have the giant *Made in America chip* on ones shoulder that the US's **** doesn't stink and that we are the greatest country on the planet... just because...We are slipping and most of this country is in a self congradulatory circle jerk about it.

l
 
ric27 said:
Mean?

Capitalism is about finding business opportunities and, well... capitalizing on them.

It's basic corporate structure 101; the management of a corporation answers to that corporation's shareholders. Those shareholders are motivatd purely by profit.

An enlightened manager must be smart enough to realize that to make money, he/she needs to take care of his/her employees, who in turn take great care of customers who, in turn, are the actual ones who make, the stockholders happy.

The sooner one recognizes those facts, the better because continuing to have the giant *Made in America chip* on ones shoulder that the US's **** doesn't stink and that we are the greatest country on the planet... just because...We are slipping and most of this country is in a self congradulatory circle jerk about it.

l
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Capitalism is not mean, it is cruel however. It cares not for who or what you are, just what you can economically produce
 
ric27 said:
Agreed. Shareholders aren't worried about nationalism or using sweatshop and child labor in China

Bottom line Its profit whoring
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Its a lot more than that. Yes...corporations are driven by profit. Yes...labor has done its share to drive the job market overseas. Yes, the government is being foolish in its involvement. Yes, the American consumer is being foolish in what we buy and what we tolerate.

Any American citizen that buys a new ford, chev, or chrysler product that is built outside of this country ought to be kicked in the head. The 'buy American' mantra is foolish. Buy products manufactured in America. Regardless of the origins of the parent company.
 
Helix said:
We need to make the changes necessary to manufacture goods domestically again. Until we do so (or until another industry absorbs the displaced workers), there will be many working and non-working poor.
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There isn't any reason to hire massive amounts of worker to manufacture in the US because its cheaper, long term, to use equipment.
 
xpiher said:
There isn't any reason to hire massive amounts of worker to manufacture in the US because its cheaper, long term, to use equipment.
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A smart businessman would recognize balance and the need to employ...consumers.
 
VanceMack said:
A smart businessman would recognize balance and the need to employ...consumers.
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The emphasis is massive, it cheaper to higher skilled workers and use equipment for the rest. In China, its cheaper to higher people.
 
VanceMack said:
A smart businessman would recognize balance and the need to employ...consumers.
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Sure, a smart businessman recognizes that everyone would benefit if every business took on a few more workers ... EXCEPT not him. He'll ace the competition by running lean. That's exactly the situation we're in now. Businesses have the profits and the cash to hire, but they won't until demand picks up. But demand won't pick up until hiring picks up. Chicken < -- > Egg < -- > Chicken....

That's why stimulus is needed to break the impasse.
 
VanceMack said:
A smart businessman would recognize balance and the need to employ...consumers.
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That would be the wrong suggestion for an individual business. If he does so, and his competitors do not, and have lower costs, he will go out of business soon, employing no one
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Capitalism is not mean, it is cruel however. It cares not for who or what you are, just what you can economically produce
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Its a bitch-eat-bitch world, you either swim or you sink.

You keep hearing...only "Made In America By The American Working Man" for me schtick

Those 5.11 Tactical pants one loves so much made? They may do US production to meet procurement regs but made in Vietnam.

Oakley boots? Again, some made in the US to meet procurement regulations, most made in China. The list goes on and on...

Heres a question... Why the **** has every administration since Nixon strived to bring China into the fold? Why has every American business that manufacturers goods poured into the China market?

The fact is many businesses do not work without China. Between being in business and not, between employing a few Chinese and a few Americans or employing nobody, between creating something and creating nothing, one chooses the former in all cases.
 
AdamT said:
Sure, a smart businessman recognizes that everyone would benefit if every business took on a few more workers ... EXCEPT not him. He'll ace the competition by running lean. That's exactly the situation we're in now. Businesses have the profits and the cash to hire, but they won't until demand picks up. But demand won't pick up until hiring picks up. Chicken < -- > Egg < -- > Chicken....

That's why stimulus is needed to break the impasse.
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Horse****. 'Stimulus' takes 800 billion dollars, lights it on fire, and is amazed when it has nothing to show for it. 'Stimulus' might actually work if the fed purchased 800 billion dollars worth of goods from American manufacturers that set up industry in America and hired Americans. Im very much NOT suprised that people like you look at the federal government that cant pass so much as an operating budget and that has run up 15.5 trillion (thanks new 'debt ceiling') as the answer to problems.

Obamas green jobs push...again...foolish. Dump money in on the business side...but when there are no customers and no demand for product, your company goes TU. Shocking. Who DIDNT see that coming?
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
That would be the wrong suggestion for an individual business. If he does so, and his competitors do not, and have lower costs, he will go out of business soon, employing no one
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I agree...for an individual business. Ive long said...the feds role here should be to bring industry en masse and labor together and negotiate a positive work/industry environment. The sales pitch shouldnt be that hard.
 
You really can not blame, the industry for any of this; capital and business flows to the point that makes the most sense and it makes sense to have parts made in China right now.

Check this out....the American worker feels they are entitled to high wages and lavish benefits, then goes shopping and demands the lowest price goods possible?? lol

You can't have it both ways. Something has to give
 
xpiher said:
There isn't any reason to hire massive amounts of worker to manufacture in the US because its cheaper, long term, to use equipment.
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certainly technology will play an increasing role in manufacturing and production. however, it will still be necessary for the current working class to have a way to earn a living to purchase those products.

the current scenario still requires people to produce goods. i would prefer to see those people working under humane conditions, and living in a clean environment. requiring OSHA and US emissions compliance for free access to our markets seems an equitable solution with potential for leveling the playing field somewhat.
 
Ikari said:
The only way to really do that is tariff. Companies no longer have loyalty to consumers and employees the way they once did. They'll pick up and leave at a moments notice. Fire as many people as necessary to make their "profit" look good that quarter. The more and more we give them, the more and more they take. It would require regulation and tariff of appropriate level to force manufacturing back into the US.
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Companies are hammered with more government regulation than they once were, too.
 
Helix said:
certainly technology will play an increasing role in manufacturing and production. however, it will still be necessary for the current working class to have a way to earn a living to purchase those products.
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The avg worker simply has to get smarter or move onto more service type jobs like fixing houses etc.
 
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