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Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy

[...] We know that oil fields are drying up in places like Mexico [...]
Most people don't know that, especially those that try to debate the issue, which makes debating the issue with them mostly a waste of time.
 
We have a pretty good idea the domestic supply is grossly insufficient for our needs. We know that oil fields are drying up in places like Mexico and Yemen (among others). We know that demand is going to rise quickly as countries like China and India continue to develop. The biggest Gulf discover in the last dozen years would only meet our needs for 30 days. The pace of oil discoveries has been slowing for some time.

If we produce our own oil and gas, what China needs will not be an issue. I believe that I have read that demand in the U.S. is actually down and not rising. Second, my reading has shown far different numbers for untapped resources than what you have stated. It appears that getting accurate numbers on the availability of future resources difficult to obtain.
 
If we produce our own oil and gas, what China needs will not be an issue. I believe that I have read that demand in the U.S. is actually down and not rising. Second, my reading has shown far different numbers for untapped resources than what you have stated. It appears that getting accurate numbers on the availability of future resources difficult to obtain.
The numbers are pretty straightforward; accurate understanding is the difficulty. Blind ideology is the reason.
 
It is true that there have been alarmist statements in the past about running out that haven't turned out to be true. That doesn't mean we aren't going to run out. Our consumption is rapidly escalating. Especially the consumption of China, which is rapidly industrializing. At the same time, new discovery has been slowing. Much of the increased consumption in the last decade or so has been satisfied by increasing production from existing fields rather than finding new oil. There really are no analysts in the industry that don't agree that crude oil is going to be too expensive to be commercially viable for almost all applications in our life times. Some say 10 years, some say 20, some even say 40, but I don't know that anybody goes beyond 40 with their estimates. To get to 40 you need to make extremely optimistic assumptions about how much we're going to cut back on consumption and equally optimistic assumptions about the pace of discovery not continuing to fall.

According to what I have read, domestic consumption is not "rapidly escalating," but rather has declined. Will we one day run out of petroleum? Probably. If alternative energies can replace petroleum, they should be fully developed and made to be effective and cost efficient prior to the time we run out of petroleum. If we use our resources and purchase from Canada, China will not impact our ability to have resources as we would produce our own.

Now, there are oil sands and shale oil. Currently they aren't really economically viable, but as the price of oil goes up they eventually will be. But, if we end up there- getting by on oil sands or shale oil- we clearly went down the wrong path because they cost more than green energy. The only reason we would be using them was because we failed to adopt to green energy by the time that we should have to be economically efficient and we still have a bunch of equipment that we can't switch over fast enough. Also, once we start getting into that stuff we're off the charts for global warming. Beyond even the worst case scenario projections.

I have read a bit on these and some other types that Canada uses which we also have. What may be costly today may not be as costly in the future as technological advances brings about less costs. The only reason costs would go up too high for gas and oil would be because the alternative energy cannot provide an effective and cost efficient product in the next few decades. Solar has already been around for decades. If it is a viable product, it is time to begin proving it.

I think we already covered this, no? If the earth is going to be warming on its own in the near term, that is all the more reason we need to cut back on things we're doing that worsen that problem.

We disagree on the cause and effect. If global warming is a natural result of nature, changing to alterative fuels by 2060 versus 2030 will not have significant impact. I am not sure that an alternative energy should take 80 or 90 years to develop into a viable product. If it takes that long, it probably is not viable in the first place.

The do nothing plan just isn't optimal. We'll be unprepared to switch in time and we will do incredible damage to the planet in the process. The invisible hand is great for many things. It can figure out which product is the best, lower prices, etc. But some folks get so enamored by it's performance in those areas that they start to assume it is a magic solution to all problems. It isn't. It's a way to maximize economic production and whatnot in the short term. It is not a way to invest in the long term economic prospects of a country. It does not take the environment into account. It was never intended to be anything like that. The nation still requires leaders who aren't asleep at the wheel.

No one has said do nothing.

On one hand you're saying we need to transition now and on the other hand you're arguing that we shouldn't take any of the transitional steps. This is what the transition consists of. Things like carbon taxes, incentives to switch to green energy, research, etc. That is transitioning. You can't be both for and against that stuff at the same time.

I did not say anything about transitional steps. I don't care what steps need to be taken. I am saying that the alternative energy industry needs to take any steps they need to take. The only thing I have said is that there should not be Federal guarantees on loans.
 
The numbers are pretty straightforward; accurate understanding is the difficulty. Blind ideology is the reason.

How can you lower yourself to even speak to a person as ideologically blind as I must be and waste your time? You are too boorish for me to have a conversation with you; therefore... bye!
 
Here's my 2 cents...

First, peak oil is real, just like agw, evolution, and all of that other sciency stuff. If you're a denier/cornucopian, please read up, because everyone from the IEA to the USGS and Total to BP and even the US and German military academies are in agreement. Pessimists point to the IEA documented conventional oil global peak in 2006, and extreme optimists like CERA put peak total oil out to the middle of this century. But no one- no one- thinks it will not happen.

In other words, it's here.

The best irony to me is the fact that PV cells are made from hydrocarbons. This is just one small example of why we should all beware the techno-triumphalist ruse that promises life (and GDP growth) will continue on just as it has just as soon as we find some new fairie dust the cars will all run on. Oil is that farie dust, and it's in twilight.

Just one more thing... don't forget that the drastic price spike of 2008 preceded the financial meltdown. Energy is a fundamental input to... everything.
 
If we use our resources and purchase from Canada, China will not impact our ability to have resources as we would produce our own.

No, that's not how it works. Oil is bought and sold on an international market. The oil is sold by corporations. They don't turn down or accept customers on the basis of their nationality.

We disagree on the cause and effect. If global warming is a natural result of nature, changing to alterative fuels by 2060 versus 2030 will not have significant impact.

That is not logically sound. If X amount of carbon emissions cause Y amount of warming, the impact of reducing carbon emissions is the same either way. In fact, if there is natural warming, then the problem is even more urgent because increasing the temperature 6 degrees isn't twice as bad as 3 degrees, it's many times as bad. 3 degrees maybe we can adapt to, although it will be costly. 6 degrees means mass famines and collapsing nations and countries and states going under water.
 
No, that's not how it works. Oil is bought and sold on an international market. The oil is sold by corporations. They don't turn down or accept customers on the basis of their nationality.

How things have worked and how they could work are two different things. I would imagine that U.S. oil companies could be persuaded to sell their oil only in the U.S.

That is not logically sound. If X amount of carbon emissions cause Y amount of warming, the impact of reducing carbon emissions is the same either way. In fact, if there is natural warming, then the problem is even more urgent because increasing the temperature 6 degrees isn't twice as bad as 3 degrees, it's many times as bad. 3 degrees maybe we can adapt to, although it will be costly. 6 degrees means mass famines and collapsing nations and countries and states going under water.

Not logically sound? Oh boy! I have explained my position and I see no reason to repeat it a third or fourth time. We disagree.
 
Here's my 2 cents...

First, peak oil is real, just like agw, evolution, and all of that other sciency stuff. If you're a denier/cornucopian, please read up, because everyone from the IEA to the USGS and Total to BP and even the US and German military academies are in agreement. Pessimists point to the IEA documented conventional oil global peak in 2006, and extreme optimists like CERA put peak total oil out to the middle of this century. But no one- no one- thinks it will not happen.

In other words, it's here.

The best irony to me is the fact that PV cells are made from hydrocarbons. This is just one small example of why we should all beware the techno-triumphalist ruse that promises life (and GDP growth) will continue on just as it has just as soon as we find some new fairie dust the cars will all run on. Oil is that farie dust, and it's in twilight.

Just one more thing... don't forget that the drastic price spike of 2008 preceded the financial meltdown. Energy is a fundamental input to... everything.

You are speaking of the world market and I am not. I agree that energy is needed to allow the economy to churn. That is partially why I want to explore, drill, and refine oil and gas, while at the same time having companies develop alternative energies.
 
How things have worked and how they could work are two different things. I would imagine that U.S. oil companies could be persuaded to sell their oil only in the U.S.

Certainly not without government intervention far beyond anything the government has done or considered doing with regards to green energy... If you're against that, I would assume you would be against something this radical too, no?

Not logically sound? Oh boy! I have explained my position and I see no reason to repeat it a third or fourth time. We disagree.

Are you contending that if there are also natural causes of global warming that reducing carbon emissions would mean a smaller reduction in temperature? Or that it would mean the same reduction in temperature, but that that would matter less? Either way, why?
 
Certainly not without government intervention far beyond anything the government has done or considered doing with regards to green energy... If you're against that, I would assume you would be against something this radical too, no?



Are you contending that if there are also natural causes of global warming that reducing carbon emissions would mean a smaller reduction in temperature? Or that it would mean the same reduction in temperature, but that that would matter less? Either way, why?

He seems to be contending that natural vs. artificial warming is a binary question, that only one of the two can be true.
 
Certainly not without government intervention far beyond anything the government has done or considered doing with regards to green energy... If you're against that, I would assume you would be against something this radical too, no?

I'm not sure what you are imagining me wanting the government to do, but I think the President and the oil companies could work out a deal where a great deal of new oil and gas would be produced in the U.S. with an understanding that we would guarantee some price to the oil and gas companies, but they would need to keep it in the U.S.

Are you contending that if there are also natural causes of global warming that reducing carbon emissions would mean a smaller reduction in temperature? Or that it would mean the same reduction in temperature, but that that would matter less? Either way, why?

I am saying neither. I am saying that I don't know whether or not carbon emissions are causing any part of the global warming. Since I do not know, I do not want to spend money in a rash way to prevent something that may not be preventable. Also, fifty, sixty, or even eighty years is a short time span for life on earth. If alternative fuels are viable, there is no reason why they should not be up and running in an efficient and cost-effective way in that time span. If carbon emissions does cause some portion of the warming, then it would be reduced greatly when the alternative fuels came on-line.
 
He seems to be contending that natural vs. artificial warming is a binary question, that only one of the two can be true.

No, that's not true. Teamosil took the right approach when he asked me which it was. Please do not assume.
 
I'm not sure what you are imagining me wanting the government to do, but I think the President and the oil companies could work out a deal where a great deal of new oil and gas would be produced in the U.S. with an understanding that we would guarantee some price to the oil and gas companies, but they would need to keep it in the U.S.

That seems like WAAAY more interference with the free market than just giving a loan to a company. Trade protectionism like that is generally considered to be so over the top in terms of interfering with the market that it can warrant retaliatory trade practices and whatnot. Conventionally that is seen as the most extreme form of market interference. Between states, that sort of thing is the only sort of market interference that is categorically forbidden in our constitution for that reason. The sort of market distortion caused by setting up a separate sub market that is limited to a subset of customers would be enormous. A loan, on the other hand, doesn't really distort the market much. The company's products are still competing freely with other companies' products, it's a loan, not a subsidy, so they can't use it to undercut prices of their competitors, etc.

I am saying neither. I am saying that I don't know whether or not carbon emissions are causing any part of the global warming. Since I do not know, I do not want to spend money in a rash way to prevent something that may not be preventable. Also, fifty, sixty, or even eighty years is a short time span for life on earth. If alternative fuels are viable, there is no reason why they should not be up and running in an efficient and cost-effective way in that time span. If carbon emissions does cause some portion of the warming, then it would be reduced greatly when the alternative fuels came on-line.

I thought you were saying that you did believe in AGW before. If not, I really think you need to examine the issue more closely. Scientifically, the verdict is firmly in.

80 years is a short time as far as the earth is concerned, but a very long time as far as humans are concerned. If we raise the temperature significantly for 80 years, the drop it back down 80 years from now, if anything that might even be worse than just raising it once because we'd need to adapt to the increase in temp, then later adapt again to the decrease. That means, for example, moving and retooling our farms twice instead of once. And, 80 years of intensified hurricanes, dramatically higher sea levels, famine, etc, is pretty devastating.

Now, if you really want to worry about something, the worst case scenario is that we burn the oil up like gangbusters and right around the time the worst of the global warming consequences are kicking in and we're reeling from that, oil starts to run out. That's when the possibility of taking a serious step back to lower levels of technology and becoming a third world country really come on the table.

Anyways, with the stakes being that high for the future of our country I just am not worried about whether a few loans here and there might be going to slightly sub-optimal companies or something. In 100 years people are going to look back at our time and be completely unable to comprehend why we didn't do anything while there was still time.
 
That seems like WAAAY more interference with the free market than just giving a loan to a company. Trade protectionism like that is generally considered to be so over the top in terms of interfering with the market that it can warrant retaliatory trade practices and whatnot. Conventionally that is seen as the most extreme form of market interference. Between states, that sort of thing is the only sort of market interference that is categorically forbidden in our constitution for that reason. The sort of market distortion caused by setting up a separate sub market that is limited to a subset of customers would be enormous. A loan, on the other hand, doesn't really distort the market much. The company's products are still competing freely with other companies' products, it's a loan, not a subsidy, so they can't use it to undercut prices of their competitors, etc.

You are correct. I had a flashback to my liberal days. Woof! That hurt. Loans by private institutions are fine, but no government guarantees. Oil and gas companies could sell to anyone, but would verbally encourage selling domestically.

I thought you were saying that you did believe in AGW before. If not, I really think you need to examine the issue more closely. Scientifically, the verdict is firmly in.

Here is exactly what I said previously, "Does global warming exist? Most likely."

80 years is a short time as far as the earth is concerned, but a very long time as far as humans are concerned. If we raise the temperature significantly for 80 years, the drop it back down 80 years from now, if anything that might even be worse than just raising it once because we'd need to adapt to the increase in temp, then later adapt again to the decrease. That means, for example, moving and retooling our farms twice instead of once. And, 80 years of intensified hurricanes, dramatically higher sea levels, famine, etc, is pretty devastating.

Intensified hurricanes? We have had major hurricanes many years ago. I have yet to see higher sea levels. As for famine, there has been famine during every century.

Now, if you really want to worry about something, the worst case scenario is that we burn the oil up like gangbusters and right around the time the worst of the global warming consequences are kicking in and we're reeling from that, oil starts to run out. That's when the possibility of taking a serious step back to lower levels of technology and becoming a third world country really come on the table.

That cannot happen. Remember, we have alternative energy that will become efficient and cost-effective before that happens. If that is not possible, then alternative energy has been hyped and is not a real solution. As for the fear-mongering, I'll leave that to you folks.

Anyways, with the stakes being that high for the future of our country I just am not worried about whether a few loans here and there might be going to slightly sub-optimal companies or something. In 100 years people are going to look back at our time and be completely unable to comprehend why we didn't do anything while there was still time.

Just like it will be in 2019, heh?
 
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Intensified hurricanes? We have had major hurricanes many years ago. I have yet to see higher sea levels. As for famine, there has been famine during every century.

It's the same thing we were discussing about global warming in general. It's not binary. There will be more hurricanes and the ones that happen will be worse. The sea levels have risen, but when that really gets scary is when ice shelves melt off, which hasn't happened yet. By comparison, we haven't seen anything yet. Same with famine- not binary. More famine.

That cannot happen. Remember, we have alternative energy that will become efficient and cost-effective before that happens. If that is not possible, then alternative energy has been hyped and is not a real solution. As for the fear-mongering, I'll leave that to you folks.

It is possible, but like all great accomplishments, it isn't easy. We need to get off our butts and get cracking on it big time.
 
No, that's not true. Teamosil took the right approach when he asked me which it was. Please do not assume.

Thanks for the clarification. You cleared it up decently here too:

I am saying neither. I am saying that I don't know whether or not carbon emissions are causing any part of the global warming. Since I do not know, I do not want to spend money in a rash way to prevent something that may not be preventable. Also, fifty, sixty, or even eighty years is a short time span for life on earth. If alternative fuels are viable, there is no reason why they should not be up and running in an efficient and cost-effective way in that time span. If carbon emissions does cause some portion of the warming, then it would be reduced greatly when the alternative fuels came on-line.

You don't know, but the experts in the field are pretty darned sure, and a lot of those people are saying we need to push these alternatives faster, because there's still a lot of damage "in the pipe" after we do stop. (it takes quite a while for a new equilibrium to be reached, between the massive thermal inertia that a whole planet has and the various feedbacks that take a while to settle out) There may even be pretty serious "tipping points," where if you exceed them, feedbacks kick in and push you a lot further than you would think. Of particular concern is the staggering amounts of methane stored in Russian permafrost, it's melting now and starting to release.

We can't wait 50, 60, or 80 years. Things are changing too fast. While the magnitude of the current change may not seem like a lot, the rate is highly unusual. Comparing the fossil record to historical rapid shifts in climate of this rate, you find a disturbing correlation between extinction events and major climate shifts.

CO2 is definitely causing some part of global warming. That part is basic physics. Yes, there's more research to be done to fine-tune things, but it is well-established now that CO2 is the major driver over the last 50 years or so. (first half of the 20th century had a major solar influence also, sun was increasing output)

You said you don't know. You have two options:
1) Read the scientific literature yourself and come to a conclusion. (there's a lot, so put some time into it!)
2) Accept what other people tell you.

If you're going to do (2), that's fine. Listen to who you like. But don't you think that a 97% agreement between experts in this field is good enough to take action on?
 
It's the same thing we were discussing about global warming in general. It's not binary. There will be more hurricanes and the ones that happen will be worse. The sea levels have risen, but when that really gets scary is when ice shelves melt off, which hasn't happened yet. By comparison, we haven't seen anything yet. Same with famine- not binary. More famine.

We'll see if what you say is true.

It is possible, but like all great accomplishments, it isn't easy. We need to get off our butts and get cracking on it big time.

I agree.
 
Thanks for the clarification. You cleared it up decently here too:

You don't know, but the experts in the field are pretty darned sure, and a lot of those people are saying we need to push these alternatives faster, because there's still a lot of damage "in the pipe" after we do stop. (it takes quite a while for a new equilibrium to be reached, between the massive thermal inertia that a whole planet has and the various feedbacks that take a while to settle out) There may even be pretty serious "tipping points," where if you exceed them, feedbacks kick in and push you a lot further than you would think. Of particular concern is the staggering amounts of methane stored in Russian permafrost, it's melting now and starting to release.

We can't wait 50, 60, or 80 years. Things are changing too fast. While the magnitude of the current change may not seem like a lot, the rate is highly unusual. Comparing the fossil record to historical rapid shifts in climate of this rate, you find a disturbing correlation between extinction events and major climate shifts.

CO2 is definitely causing some part of global warming. That part is basic physics. Yes, there's more research to be done to fine-tune things, but it is well-established now that CO2 is the major driver over the last 50 years or so. (first half of the 20th century had a major solar influence also, sun was increasing output)

You said you don't know. You have two options:
1) Read the scientific literature yourself and come to a conclusion. (there's a lot, so put some time into it!)
2) Accept what other people tell you.

If you're going to do (2), that's fine. Listen to who you like. But don't you think that a 97% agreement between experts in this field is good enough to take action on?

Which of the following articles would you suggest I read?

Surveyed scientists agree global warming is real - CNN

Global Warming Petition Project

The Case Against Global Warming—and How Believers Respond - WSJ.com

Argument Against Global Warming, "The Greatest Scam In History!"

Global Warming or Just Hot Air? A Dozen Different Views | LiveScience
 

I would suggest that you don't read any of them, given that none of them are written by accredited scientific journals. I would instead suggest that you read the executive summaries of IPCC reports I - IV.
 
I have a question for all of you who believe that global warming is an imminent threat. Could you please provide a timeline as to bad events that will occur and the approximate year in which each event will occur? Thanks.
 
I have a question for all of you who believe that global warming is an imminent threat. Could you please provide a timeline as to bad events that will occur and the approximate year in which each event will occur? Thanks.

Of course not. We can describe many trends however, including increases in: number and extent of wildfires, crop losses due to drought and heavy precipitation, coastal flooding, number and severity of summer heat waves, extinction rates, ocean acidification, sea and land ice melt, and the long term severity of hurricanes... for example.

The identification of trends on a long-term timescale (20+ years) does not require or imply a specific predictive ability on so fine a scale. That should be self-evident.
 
Of course not. We can describe many trends however, including increases in: number and extent of wildfires, crop losses due to drought and heavy precipitation, coastal flooding, number and severity of summer heat waves, extinction rates, ocean acidification, sea and land ice melt, and the long term severity of hurricanes... for example.

The identification of trends on a long-term timescale (20+ years) does not require or imply a specific predictive ability on so fine a scale. That should be self-evident.

Teamosil said that water levels are rising. If that is the case, I would think that flooding of NYC would be predictable within a range of years. Are you saying this cannot be done?

Does everyone agree with nijato's assessment?
 
Green energy is a newish industry. We'll presumably see 100s or 1,000s of green energy businesses go under as it sorts itself out. Nothing unusual about that. That's how biotech is, that's how software is, that's how all big booms work. That's how innovation works.

Ok, then the god damn gov't needs to stay the **** out of that volatile industry and stop throwing taxpayer money at it in hopes that it succeeds.
 
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Teamosil said that water levels are rising. If that is the case, I would think that flooding of NYC would be predictable within a range of years. Are you saying this cannot be done?

Does everyone agree with nijato's assessment?

Yeah, he's right. You can't predict these sorts of things exactly. After all, we're talking about weather here. And any predictions need to be based on projections of how much greenhouse gas the world will release each year, which is very tough to predict exactly. But you can definitely predict long term trends and effects that various factors have and make very informed decisions based on those things.

As for NYC specifically, realistically it won't ever go under water. It's worth too much. They'll build dykes and whatnot for real estate that valuable. But it will cost them many billions of dollars to deal with the impact of sea level rise. New York City alone has 600 miles of coastline and 4 of the 5 boroughs are islands. It is almost all built very close to sea level. So, the cost of a project like that would be enormous. They're currently predicting up to 23 inches of sea level rise by the end of the century in New York. That may not sound like much, but it means hundreds of miles of dykes, massive changes to drainage and water treatment systems, etc. And that is just for the sea level rise. The heat in general means much larger demands on its electrical grid in summer, public health problems related to heat, moving critical infrastructure further away from the shore line to make it less vulnerable to hurricanes and whatnot, etc. Just for New York City alone, we're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars fighting the effects of global warming.

As for predicting when, that question doesn't really line up with the facts. Some costs have already begun to show up. It isn't like one day it will be above water and everything will be great, the next it will all be flooded. The water level will raise by a fraction of an inch per year. The very lowest areas will have a bit more damage in storms than they would have otherwise, then maybe they'll start improving drainage systems, then eventually they'll have to build a couple dykes, then a few more, etc. But, by the end of the century they're looking at massive costs from it.

One thing that is important to keep in mind is that AGW doesn't work like we can cut carbon emissions and then the next day everything is back to normal. The effects last many decades. Changes in our behavior today more than our behavior at the end of the century, determine how things will be climatalogically at the end of the century.

But, that's just one city. The costs nationwide will be much higher. By the end of the century they are projecting that nationwide we will face around $1.9 trillion/year in global warming costs if we do nothing to abate the problem at all.
 
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