US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

sangha · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Catawba said:
Again the Constitution does not specify that Constitutional interpretation is decided by deltabtry, it specifies that Constitutional interpretation by the Courts,

If the court felt the Affidavit for the Gibson case was unreasonable, it would not have issued the search warrant. Are you saying that the search was conducted without a search warrant???

And please show me the Court decision that backs up your contention that investigations must conclude with charges being placed, and that if you are investigated once, you can never be investigated again at any point in the future?

Maybe the court is in on the conspiracy against Gibson :roll:

sangha · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
The trial hasn't become yet that is if there is ever trial, and who knows the courts may like deltabtry's argument and a new interpretation may be born.

Your arguments are becoming delerious. Seriously.

I only bringing up a proposed argument which I think would be valid. So the feds can continue to raid Gibson for years to come until they can decide what Gibson will be charged with, would you advocate this policy.

The feds can raid Gibson as many times as the courts allow them to. That's the law.

The Clinton admin was subject to numerous warrants and subpeonas during the Lewinsky investigation. Did you protest them?

There is a point when it becomes harassment. Not arguing the validity of the warrant, I am arguing the harassment on Gibson which can be construed as unreasonable searches IMO.

If the court issues a warrant, then it is not unreasonable unless you're now going off the deep end and claiming the court is also in on the conspiracy against Gibson

sangha · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

BmanMcfly said:
Ya, but if they raid your place and you are not charged with a crime, then you are released.

No one at Gibson was arrested. The arguments of the wingnut right are becoming delerious

There are also issues like statutes of limitation... I'm not sure what they would be for this case, but still, we're not talking about a murder charge or some other SERIOUS crime. Even on face value, at worst their "crime" is that they were victims of fraud and sold what they bought under false pretenses.

SO you don't know what the statutes of limitation is on this, but you're sure there's something wrong the feds did? :cuckoo:

Not quite deserving of the SWAT style raid of the place, when a visit from 2 officers with a warrant would have been sufficient, they sell guitars not crystal meth.

Again, you don't know the facts, but you're sure something was done wrong :cuckoo:

Antiderivative · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Doesn't the federal government have better things to do like raiding Amish milk farmers?

Our economy is falling apart and the federal government is concerned over trees located in Madagascar. I love how our tax money is spent.

sangha · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Antiderivative said:
Doesn't the federal government have better things to do like raiding Amish milk farmers?

Our economy is falling apart and the federal government is concerned over trees located in Madagascar. I love how our tax money is spent.

Don't you have better arguments to make?

The govt can do more than one thing at a time

Catawba · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Antiderivative said:
Doesn't the federal government have better things to do like raiding Amish milk farmers?

Our economy is falling apart and the federal government is concerned over trees located in Madagascar. I love how our tax money is spent.

This was addressed earlier in the thread:

"Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...-gibson-guitar-over-ebony.html#post1059769012

Do have any understanding of the negative effects deforestation can have on the world's, ecosystem, climate, and economy?

deltabtry · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
Your arguments are becoming delerious. Seriously.

The feds can raid Gibson as many times as the courts allow them to. That's the law.

The Clinton admin was subject to numerous warrants and subpeonas during the Lewinsky investigation. Did you protest them?

If the court issues a warrant, then it is not unreasonable unless you're now going off the deep end and claiming the court is also in on the conspiracy against Gibson

Your arguments are becoming delerious. Seriously.

Well LOL.

The feds can raid Gibson as many times as the courts allow them to. That's the law.

We do not live in banana republic, both law enforcement and the courts have to operate within the boundaries set forth by the constitution. If there is a abuse of power both law enforcement and the courts can be held to account.

The Clinton admin was subject to numerous warrants and subpeonas during the Lewinsky investigation. Did you protest them?

What's this have to do with Gibson? ...are you trying to politicize this argument?

If the court issues a warrant, then it is not unreasonable unless you're now going off the deep end and claiming the court is also in on the conspiracy against Gibson

First off I don't hold any court in the God status, if there is misconduct or a simple error, then the courts should be held to account. Judges can be impeached and BTW should be elected by the people as it once was with the exception of perhaps SCOTUS. Life time appoints breeds corruption and favoritism and advocacy for one group over another. .. Lastly my complaint is simple I believe both the fourth and sixth amendment may have been violated and a case could be made, and what really incensed me about this was the armed invasion when a simple audit and investigation would have sufficed.
Your not going to bate me into a political argument here, there is nothing political about it.

deltabtry · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Catawba said:
This was addressed earlier in the thread:

"Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...-gibson-guitar-over-ebony.html#post1059769012

Do have any understanding of the negative effects deforestation can have on the world's, ecosystem, climate, and economy?

"Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

This we agree on.

Catawba · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
This we agree on.

I am glad we have something we can agree on! This why enforcement of anti-trafficking laws are so important, to not only the US, but the world.

The Barbarian · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Catawba said:
This was addressed earlier in the thread:

"Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...-gibson-guitar-over-ebony.html#post1059769012

Do have any understanding of the negative effects deforestation can have on the world's, ecosystem, climate, and economy?

Well you may or may not have a point, there seem to be some dispute if the wood seized in this latest raid, is wood from Madagascar … or if it's wood from India.

What I find disturbing about this, is the fact that they haven't yet brought charges from the first raid that happened over 19 months ago. Gibson has sued the government for return of the seized wood. Now the Government is using this new case [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]to convince a federal judge to indefinitely delay this lawsuit .[/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IF” Gibson has done anything wrong, fine, the government needs to present it's case, and let a judge, or jury decide. But to me something is seriously wrong when our own government can seize a half million dollars worth of raw product from a company, and 19 month later still not charge that company with anything, not only not charge them, but raid them again, for what seems to be the soul reason of stopping a lawsuit by that company from having their day in court. [/FONT]

sangha · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Well LOL.

We do not live in banana republic, both law enforcement and the courts have to operate within the boundaries set forth by the constitution. If there is a abuse of power both law enforcement and the courts can be held to account.

And what I said in no way contradicts that. The warrants were obtained in the prescribed manner and no one has been able to provide any evidence to the contrary

What's this have to do with Gibson? ...are you trying to politicize this argument?

What a joke your argument has become. After your biased accusations that this investigation is based on politics, you are now trying to back away from it. :lol:

And dont think I didn't notice how you avoided answering the question. The reason for your avoidance is obvious

First off I don't hold any court in the God status, if there is misconduct or a simple error, then the courts should be held to account. Judges can be impeached and BTW should be elected by the people as it once was with the exception of perhaps SCOTUS. Life time appoints breeds corruption and favoritism and advocacy for one group over another. .. Lastly my complaint is simple I believe both the fourth and sixth amendment may have been violated and a case could be made, and what really incensed me about this was the armed invasion when a simple audit and investigation would have sufficed.
Your not going to bate me into a political argument here, there is nothing political about it.

And another claim of unconstitutionality without any evidence being presented. You don't even TRY to make a case. You've done nothing but claim that "a case could be made". I'll believe that when I see it.

sangha · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

The Barbarian said:
Well you may or may not have a point, there seem to be some dispute if the wood seized in this latest raid, is wood from Madagascar … or if it's wood from India.

What I find disturbing about this, is the fact that they haven't yet brought charges from the first raid that happened over 19 months ago. Gibson has sued the government for return of the seized wood. Now the Government is using this new case [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]to convince a federal judge to indefinitely delay this lawsuit .[/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IF” Gibson has done anything wrong, fine, the government needs to present it's case, and let a judge, or jury decide. But to me something is seriously wrong when our own government can seize a half million dollars worth of raw product from a company, and 19 month later still not charge that company with anything, not only not charge them, but raid them again, for what seems to be the soul reason of stopping a lawsuit by that company from having their day in court. [/FONT]

You can rant all you want about "SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!" and "SOMETHING IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL" but without evidence, you've got nothing but your rant

Catawba · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

The Barbarian said:
Well you may or may not have a point, there seem to be some dispute if the wood seized in this latest raid, is wood from Madagascar … or if it's wood from India.

The 2009 investigation was about illegally imported wood by Gibson from Madagascar, this years investigation was about illegally imported wood by Gibson from India.

What I find disturbing about this, is the fact that they haven't yet brought charges from the first raid that happened over 19 months ago. Gibson has sued the government for return of the seized wood. Now the Government is using this new case [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]to convince a federal judge to indefinitely delay this lawsuit .[/FONT]

“[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IF” Gibson has done anything wrong, fine, the government needs to present it's case, and let a judge, or jury decide. But to me something is seriously wrong when our own government can seize a half million dollars worth of raw product from a company, and 19 month later still not charge that company with anything, not only not charge them, but raid them again, for what seems to be the soul reason of stopping a lawsuit by that company from having their day in court. [/FONT]

As has been pointed out by Lord Tammerlain, "the vast majority of court cases vs corporations take years to work through the system."

Here is the complete Affidavit in support of the search warrant authorized by the court. It should answer your questions about the case:

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deltabtry · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
And what I said in no way contradicts that. The warrants were obtained in the prescribed manner and no one has been able to provide any evidence to the contrary

What a joke your argument has become. After your biased accusations that this investigation is based on politics, you are now trying to back away from it. :lol:

And dont think I didn't notice how you avoided answering the question. The reason for your avoidance is obvious

And another claim of unconstitutionality without any evidence being presented. You don't even TRY to make a case. You've done nothing but claim that "a case could be made". I'll believe that when I see it.

After your biased accusations that this investigation is based on politics, you are now trying to back away from it. :lol:

You'll have to back this up with a reference, I haven't singled out any particular party on this topic, my complaint is with the government.

And dont think I didn't notice how you avoided answering the question. The reason for your avoidance is obvious

Staying on topic is not avoidance but if you open a new thread we can discuss Clinton etc.

sangha · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
You'll have to back this up with a reference, I haven't singled out any particular party on this topic, my complaint is with the government.

ANd complaining about the govt without any evidence is political. It is based on your political ideology and nothing else. It certainly isn't based on any evidence because it's obvious you have none.

Staying on topic is not avoidance but if you open a new thread we can discuss Clinton etc.

The topic is the one you raised - multiple searches without an indictment. There's nothing wrong with bringing up other instances when this has happened, instances I doubt you had a problem with because they don't fit your political agenda.

Catawba · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

This paper provides more information about the deforestation (degradation) of the rainforests in Madagascar, India, and other countries for those with an interest in the reason why illegal trafficking is such a concern:

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deltabtry · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
ANd complaining about the govt without any evidence is political. It is based on your political ideology and nothing else. It certainly isn't based on any evidence because it's obvious you have none.

The topic is the one you raised - multiple searches without an indictment. There's nothing wrong with bringing up other instances when this has happened, instances I doubt you had a problem with because they don't fit your political agenda.

Sangha you going off the deep end and off topic. We will have to agree to disagree.

sangha · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Sangha you going off the deep end and off topic. We will have to agree to disagree.

No, you are the one who has repeatedly claimed that there is something unconstitutional and wrong about this investigation, but you have yet to provide any evidence to back yourself up. Your refusal to defend your own claim is very revealing.

You have claimed that there is something wrong with multiple searches without a charge. Where in the constitution does it say that multiple searches are unreasonable? Where in the law does it say multiple searches are not allowed?

Your refusal to defend your own claim is very revealing.

The Barbarian · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
You can rant all you want about "SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!" and "SOMETHING IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL" but without evidence, you've got nothing but your rant

I didn't say Gibson was innocent, nor did I say the raids in and of themselves were wrong, what I did question was why after 19 months there have been no charges filed.

It's shouldn't matter if you're a leftist liberal like yourself, or a conservative person like myself to see the problem with that.
If the government has a case, fine, then present it and let the judge or jury decide. 19 months is more then enough time to make your case. I fail to see the difference between this and holding a person for 19 months without charging him, are you for that as well?

Perhaps if you were to read, and comprehend what a poster actually says, you would be better served and taken a bit more seriously

sangha · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

The Barbarian said:
I didn't say Gibson was innocent, nor did I say the raids in and of themselves were wrong, what I did question was why after 19 months there have been no charges filed.

Again, you can rant all you want about "SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!" and "SOMETHING IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL" but without evidence, you've got nothing but your rant

Investigations often take a long time. The fact that this involves events in other nations makes it even more difficult and complex. Some investigations, include investigations into smuggling, take years.

And I read and understood what you said. You think there's something wrong but all you've got is "It's taking too long!!". You don't seem to understand the law or police work. Investigating crimes like this takes more time than a simple burglary.

This has been pointed out many time in this thread. Maybe you should take your own advice and read, and comprehend, what has already been said

Ockham · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
Again, you can rant all you want about "SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!" and "SOMETHING IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL" but without evidence, you've got nothing but your rant

Investigations often take a long time. The fact that this involves events in other nations makes it even more difficult and complex. Some investigations, include investigations into smuggling, take years.

How does any of that apply to Gibson? You didn't really say... or are you insinuating that Gibson smuggled the wood?

Catawba · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Ockham said:
How does any of that apply to Gibson? You didn't really say... or are you insinuating that Gibson smuggled the wood?

You are hung up on his term smuggled rather trafficking??? Is there really a substantial difference related to a political forum discussion?

"smug·gle (smgl)
v. smug·gled, smug·gling, smug·gles
v.tr.
1. To import or export without paying lawful customs charges or duties.
2. To bring in or take out illicitly or by stealth."
smuggled - definition of smuggled by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

"traf·fic (trfk)
n.
1.
a. The passage of people or vehicles along routes of transportation.
b. Vehicles or pedestrians in transit: heavy traffic on the turnpike; stopped oncoming traffic to let the children cross.
2.
a. The commercial exchange of goods; trade.
b. Illegal or improper commercial activity: drug traffic on city streets."
trafficking - definition of trafficking by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

sangha · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Ockham said:
How does any of that apply to Gibson? You didn't really say... or are you insinuating that Gibson smuggled the wood?

No, I am pointing out that smuggling is what Gibson is being investigated for being involved in. Maybe you should read the OP again.

on edit: Catawba is right that "smuggling" is a word commonly used to refer to illegal "trafficking". ockhams' question is pedantic

deltabtry · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
No, I am pointing out that smuggling is what Gibson is being investigated for being involved in. Maybe you should read the OP again.

on edit: Catawba is right that "smuggling" is a word commonly used to refer to illegal "trafficking". ockhams' question is pedantic

The countries in question said the imports where legal and it is not in the jurisdiction of our DOJ to interpret foreign countries laws and then apply their interpretation of foreign laws to our citizens. Now for the finer point, what in question is what the DOJ determines what constitutes a finished product under Indian law, even the Indian government has claimed it was a lawful shipment along with Madagascar. Perhaps this is why it has been 19 months and no charges filed, the DOJ has nothing to file. Therefor my claim of the 4th and 6th amendment could apply amongst other claims from Gibson, I think Gibson will come out on top and if so the DOJ needs to be slapped. This isn't the only abuse/misinterpretion of the Lacey act that has happen to our citizens and some have been sentenced to two to eight years in prison for carrying lobster in a plastic bag apposed to a box, now is this where we want to go.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/alobsterstail.htm
[URL]http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Typicalfelonies/tabid/86/Default.aspx#Lacey[/URL]

Catawba · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
The countries in question said the imports where legal and it is not in the jurisdiction of our DOJ to interpret foreign countries laws and then apply their interpretation of foreign laws to our citizens. Now for the finer point, what in question is what the DOJ determines what constitutes a finished product under Indian law, even the Indian government has claimed it was a lawful shipment along with Madagascar.

Link to where the countries in question said that what Gibson allegedly did was legal please?

Perhaps this is why it has been 19 months and no charges filed, the DOJ has nothing to file. Therefor my claim of the 4th and 6th amendment could apply amongst other claims from Gibson, I think Gibson will come out on top and if so the DOJ needs to be slapped.

Sorry, but unsubstantiated speculation does not back up your claim that the 4th and 6th amendment was violated by DOJ and the courts that issued the search warrants.

US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

sangha

sangha

sangha

Antiderivative

sangha

Catawba

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deltabtry

deltabtry

Catawba

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The Barbarian

sangha

sangha

Catawba

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deltabtry

sangha

Catawba

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deltabtry

sangha

The Barbarian

sangha

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

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sangha

deltabtry

Catawba

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