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US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

In sense your right, my real complaint is with congress and the ineptness they perform everyday. My complaint is what you state and the EPA is just a tool I wish to take away, it is just a avenue for congress to subvert our constitution and rights. I have many problems with our government and the over reaching powers that it has, I pick no sides except the side of what the constitution states, hence the term, "very conservative" or lets say contitutionalist. This isn't a party or presidential incident or complaint, it's more or less a complaint of the militarization of our law enforcement and it's over reaching powers and violations of our constitutional rights, along with their it's mentality that it's above the law.

While I disagree with your position on the extent of govt power, I agree that in some areas the govt has over-reached. Though I have a far more expansive view on the role of govt that you, I recognize the dangers of a govt with unfettered power to use force. This is a problem that both parties enthusiatically encourage, which is why I associate with neither. However, the way to rein in these abuses is not by making ideological arguments, but arguments of a more practical nature.

The american people reject oppresive states. Meanwhile, we spend hundreds of billions incarcerating people for minor offenses, and as a result we jail a larger segment of our population that so-called "police states" like China and North Korea. And that isn't counting those under govt supervision (ie probation, parole, and various criminal registries). We have confiscatory laws that impoverish people who are guilty of no crime, and the result has not been security; it makes all of subject to the whims of arbitrary forces with little to no chance of successfully seeking redress from the very state that oppresses us.

IOW, though we come from opposite ends of the political spectrum we have much in common. As americans, we share the opposition to concentrations of power which has always been the greatest threat to our liberty.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

So, let me get this straight. America demands other nations enforce our copyright laws but when we try to enforce Indian law's application to Indian products, it's bad or something.

Copyright laws are protected by international agreements.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Well the problem is this (Feds go after Gibson Guitars — RT)



Thus, the US went and raided Gibson due to them breaking Indian laws, not American ones. Thus this brings up the questions Will the US start enforcing the laws of other nations in America?
and 2) Just how much power does the Federal government have?

So the feds are enforcing Indian Law? I believe that it is none of the feds damn business what Indian laws are broken and should not be trying to enforce the laws of other nations on US soil. Perhaps all those states trying to pass laws that ban judges from citing foreign and Islamic laws should make that apply to law enforcement officials as well.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

How about the Depts of Defense, State and the Treasury? Those have been with us from the beginning our republic.

I support an overhaul of their function -but the basics come from necessity.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Copyright laws are protected by international agreements.
I don't think copy right laws have been broken, non the less armed law enforcement wasn't necessary, a simple audit or investigation would have sufficed.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Well I just watched this on the news, this one day raid by the armed EPA pirates just cost Gibson about million dollars and one week being off line and no charges have even be filed by the fed..WTF. Gibson will have it's day in court to proclaim it's innocents, I thought in this country one is innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof is placed on the government. So Gibson until their day in courtwill have to play along and probably take a heavy hit.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

So the feds are enforcing Indian Law? I believe that it is none of the feds damn business what Indian laws are broken and should not be trying to enforce the laws of other nations on US soil. Perhaps all those states trying to pass laws that ban judges from citing foreign and Islamic laws should make that apply to law enforcement officials as well.

No, the Feds aren't enforcing Indian copyright law. We signed a treaty with a number of nations agreeing that we all would enforce copyrights and patents, including patents and copyrights granted in those other nations. The Constitution says that treaties that we sign have the force of law. However, this treaty isn't what is at issue in this Gibson. This case is about a US law that forbids the importation of materials derived from engangered animals and plants
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Well I just watched this on the news, this one day raid by the armed EPA pirates just cost Gibson about million dollars and one week being off line and no charges have even be filed by the fed..WTF. Gibson will have it's day in court to proclaim it's innocents, I thought in this country one is innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof is placed on the government. So Gibson until their day in courtwill have to play along and probably take a heavy hit.

We'll have to remember this the next time a Libbo asks, "whatta ya mean Obama killed jobs?". :lamo
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Well I just watched this on the news, this one day raid by the armed EPA pirates just cost Gibson about million dollars and one week being off line and no charges have even be filed by the fed..WTF. Gibson will have it's day in court to proclaim it's innocents, I thought in this country one is innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof is placed on the government. So Gibson until their day in courtwill have to play along and probably take a heavy hit.

Innocent until proven guilt has nothing to do with this. When someone is accused of a crime, there must be probable cause. Once probable cause has been established, the state has the power to confiscate evidence and even incarcerate the accused. You don't really think that we should let accused killers roam free until their trial do you? Should Loghner (the man who shot Rep Giffords and others) be released until he's sane enough to stand trial? Should the police not be allowed to confiscate a gun in murder cases, or should we let the accused murderer roam free and give him back his gun?

If there is no probable cause, Gibson can go to court immediately, petition to have the case dismissed on the grounds that there is no probable, and if successful, all their possessions will be returned to them. That's how it works. In fact, that's how it has always worked.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

We'll have to remember this the next time a Libbo asks, "whatta ya mean Obama killed jobs?". :lamo

Never mind the fact that the Feds have been doing this exact thing -- bullying, forcing their targets to incur unreasonable expenses, and threatening further expense or consequence -- to employers for decades, as a proven mechanism for making hay.

Never mind the fact that Obama most likely didn't know about this raid before it went down, seeing as how the DoJ doesn't go running to the President for approval of, well, anything.

Never mind the fact that if Obama stopped the DoJ now, he'd be accused of politicizing the matter and denying the DoJ the appearance of independence it needs in order to do its job effectively.

Never mind the fact that if Obama stopped the DoJ now, people like you would be asking how Gibson bought off the White House -- did they promise to unionize? Dun-dun-dun!

Never mind anything that would directly contradict your half-assed point, even if (hell, especially if) it's the truth.

Right?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Never mind the fact that the Feds have been doing this exact thing -- bullying, forcing their targets to incur unreasonable expenses, and threatening further expense or consequence -- to employers for decades, as a proven mechanism for making hay.

Never mind the fact that Obama most likely didn't know about this raid before it went down, seeing as how the DoJ doesn't go running to the President for approval of, well, anything.

Never mind the fact that if Obama stopped the DoJ now, he'd be accused of politicizing the matter and denying the DoJ the appearance of independence it needs in order to do its job effectively.

Never mind the fact that if Obama stopped the DoJ now, people like you would be asking how Gibson bought off the White House -- did they promise to unionize? Dun-dun-dun!

Never mind anything that would directly contradict your half-assed point, even if (hell, especially if) it's the truth.

Right?
This shouldn't even be at the level of the executive branch and probably isn't. That said, the EPA is out of control and has been for years long before Obama and this problem has to be resolved through congress and the states. TN should deny the EPA any over reaching and unconstitutional powers, until it is resolved through the courts.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

This shouldn't even be at the level of the executive branch and probably isn't. That said, the EPA is out of control and has been for years long before Obama and this problem has to be resolved through congress and the states. TN should deny the EPA any over reaching and unconstitutional powers, until it is resolved through the courts.

Huh? It's the executive branch that enforces the law. The police are a part of the executive brance (usually at the local or state level) It's always been that way.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

We'll have to remember this the next time a Libbo asks, "whatta ya mean Obama killed jobs?". :lamo
I am still out on this, although to some extent perhaps the EPA has grown more balls because it has a friendlier ally in the White House with that said, this agency was started by a republican Nixon. Non the less this affects us all and yes it is a jog killing agency and should be defunded and striped of it's powers.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Innocent until proven guilt has nothing to do with this. When someone is accused of a crime, there must be probable cause. Once probable cause has been established, the state has the power to confiscate evidence and even incarcerate the accused. You don't really think that we should let accused killers roam free until their trial do you? Should Loghner (the man who shot Rep Giffords and others) be released until he's sane enough to stand trial? Should the police not be allowed to confiscate a gun in murder cases, or should we let the accused murderer roam free and give him back his gun?

If there is no probable cause, Gibson can go to court immediately, petition to have the case dismissed on the grounds that there is no probable, and if successful, all their possessions will be returned to them. That's how it works. In fact, that's how it has always worked.
Once probable cause has been established then charges need to be levied if no charges have be levied the accused walk. Murders is something else and for another subject, remember Robert Blake.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Huh? It's the executive branch that enforces the law. The police are a part of the executive brance (usually at the local or state level) It's always been that way.
Yes but not at the federal level.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Once probable cause has been established then charges need to be levied if no charges have be levied the accused walk. Murders is something else and for another subject, remember Robert Blake.

In criminal cases, yes. I think this is probable a civil case.

And I don't you're doing yourself any facors by just dismissing murder cases after posting that "innocent until proven guilty" spiel. Either you apply that consistently, or you don't. BTW, the same thing applies to robbery, etc. Should we just let the their go and give them back the gun they used to commit the robbery? We put people who haven't been convicted of anything in jail all the time, and rightfully so. Gibson isn't immune from this simply because they make rockin' guitars
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I support an overhaul of their function -but the basics come from necessity.

Exactly! I'm not ssaying there is no need for reform or that everything the govt does is right. However, the arguement that federal agencies have no authority to enforce the law holds no water. The argument that the Fed govt has over-reached in certain specific instances, is another matter
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I have around 20 bass guitars. One is a Gibson... a mint 1968 Thunderbird IV

hope the Feds don't read this
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Never mind the fact that the Feds have been doing this exact thing -- bullying, forcing their targets to incur unreasonable expenses, and threatening further expense or consequence -- to employers for decades, as a proven mechanism for making hay.

You're right. The Libbos have been doing that for nearly a century, now.

Never mind the fact that Obama most likely didn't know about this raid before it went down, seeing as how the DoJ doesn't go running to the President for approval of, well, anything.

Never mind the fact that if Obama stopped the DoJ now, he'd be accused of politicizing the matter and denying the DoJ the appearance of independence it needs in order to do its job effectively.

Never mind the fact that if Obama stopped the DoJ now, people like you would be asking how Gibson bought off the White House -- did they promise to unionize? Dun-dun-dun!

Never mind anything that would directly contradict your half-assed point, even if (hell, especially if) it's the truth.

Right?

It happened on Obama's watch, so he gets to hold the bag.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

You're right. The Libbos have been doing that for nearly a century, now.

As have the conservos. This is a practice which crosses party and philosophical lines, mainly because it's about power and not about politics. The individuals who perpetuate these practices are not elected officials, they're attorneys who are largely outside the political sphere -- until, of course, they decide to use their record as a champion for truth and justice as a platform for a run for office.

It happened on Obama's watch, so he gets to hold the bag.

That's a load of crap. It's a problem inherent to the inner workings of the system that Obama alone can't fix.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I have around 20 bass guitars. One is a Gibson... a mint 1968 Thunderbird IV

hope the Feds don't read this
I wish I could play one but that being said I more than content to listen to the pro's produce their magic.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I have around 20 bass guitars. One is a Gibson... a mint 1968 Thunderbird IV

hope the Feds don't read this


You wouldn't happen to have a Rickenbacker 4003 5-string by any chance would you?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

You wouldn't happen to have a Rickenbacker 4003 5-string by any chance would you?
Nup, sorry Ockham. But I do have a Rickenbacker 4-string stereo bass (white w/ black pick-guard).
 
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