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US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Gibson has to much to lose in destroying the evidence, the fine would be far cheaper and face saving rather than being dragged through the judicial system. Non the less there is constitutional issue here, just because Gibson is a manufacturer it is still protected by our constitutions. The EPA in it's self is a unconstitutional organization and has not been ratified by congress, therefor it has no power legitimately to enforce any law.
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Hold on, where does one get the idea that Gibson would destroy evidence? They didn't destroy evidence in 2009 when they were raided, they didn't destroy evidence this time or any time in between. That's a strawman... and they're still out 1 million in wood product from the two confiscations according to Gibson's CEO, and 3 million in total costs including legal costs with NO charges, and the DOJ won't discuss the confiscations. Either charge Gibson with a crime and fine them or give the product back / and or compensate them.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
makes me wonder, but I betcha if i was to walk though Gibson Guitar plant I probably wouldn't find many M4A-1 toting plant workers.
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If you listened to the radio interview I posted earlier, there's some hinting of politics... Gibson's CEO says the major guitar manufacturers all get their woods from the same countries, yes we don't see raids occurring with Fender as Fender made some very nice contributions to Democrats and the Obama presidency run. I don't know if that's true or not but that's what was said.

And I agree... the bullet proof jackets and swat team assault tactics are a bit over the line.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Gibson has to much to lose in destroying the evidence, the fine would be far cheaper and face saving rather than being dragged through the judicial system. Non the less there is constitutional issue here, just because Gibson is a manufacturer it is still protected by our constitutions. The EPA in it's self is a unconstitutional organization and has not been ratified by congress, therefor it has no power legitimately to enforce any law.
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Because we know that people who break the law are always deterred by fines :roll:

Maybe cops should raid drug dens unarmed. After all, the penalties for shooting a cop are far more severe than just giving up and going to jail :cuckoo:

And there's nothing "unconstitutional" about raiding a place of business with a warrant. You're heading into wingnut world with the "EPA is unconstitutional" rant
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Ockham said:
Hold on, where does one get the idea that Gibson would destroy evidence? They didn't destroy evidence in 2009 when they were raided, they didn't destroy evidence this time or any time in between. That's a strawman... and they're still out 1 million in wood product from the two confiscations according to Gibson's CEO, and 3 million in total costs including legal costs with NO charges, and the DOJ won't discuss the confiscations. Either charge Gibson with a crime and fine them or give the product back / and or compensate them.
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No I was replying to Sangha, if in fact this was the case, which I think it wasn't.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Ockham said:
If you listened to the radio interview I posted earlier, there's some hinting of politics... Gibson's CEO says the major guitar manufacturers all get their woods from the same countries, yes we don't see raids occurring with Fender as Fender made some very nice contributions to Democrats and the Obama presidency run. I don't know if that's true or not but that's what was said.

And I agree... the bullet proof jackets and swat team assault tactics are a bit over the line.
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If politics are the motivating factor in these raids, then some ones or asses have to kicked. To piss all over our constitutional rights in the name of the almighty buck is B/S.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
Because we know that people who break the law are always deterred by fines :roll:

Maybe cops should raid drug dens unarmed. After all, the penalties for shooting a cop are far more severe than just giving up and going to jail :cuckoo:

And there's nothing "unconstitutional" about raiding a place of business with a warrant. You're heading into wingnut world with the "EPA is unconstitutional" rant
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Sangha come on be real this is Gibson a manufacture has been around longer than we have been on this earth. You think for one second that if Gibson saw the EPA and DOJ arrive on their plant, that order would be given to defend at all cost..do or die.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Sangha come on be real this is Gibson a manufacture has been around longer than we have been on this earth. You think for one second that if Gibson saw the EPA and DOJ arrive on their plant, that order would be given to defend at all cost..do or die.
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SWAT teams are used on corporate raids so often, I think it may be SOP.

But based on your previous posts, I think it's you who needs to get real.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
SWAT teams are used on corporate raids so often, I think it may be SOP.

But based on your previous posts, I think it's you who needs to get real.
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SWAT teams are used on corporate raids so often, I think it may be SOP.
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So this is to be accepted..never. This is why I dislike both parties and why I don't trust government, history is filled with governments who eventually resort to these tactics, and it never ends nicely.

But based on your previous posts, I think it's you who needs to get real.
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what do mean?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
So this is to be accepted..never. This is why I dislike both parties and why I don't trust government, history is filled with governments who eventually resort to these tactics, and it never ends nicely.
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No, it doesn't mean it should be accepted. it means the hypocrisy of only complaining about it when there's a dem in the white house should end. SWAT teams are used more 50,000 times a year and you never noticed, as far as I can tell. But one corp that you like is blaming Obama, and now you're gobbling it up.

what do mean?[/QUOTE]

The nonsense about the EPA not having any authority
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
No, it doesn't mean it should be accepted. it means the hypocrisy of only complaining about it when there's a dem in the white house should end. SWAT teams are used more 50,000 times a year and you never noticed, as far as I can tell. But one corp that you like is blaming Obama, and now you're gobbling it up.

what do mean?
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The nonsense about the EPA not having any authority[/QUOTE]


No, it doesn't mean it should be accepted. it means the hypocrisy of only complaining about it when there's a dem in the white house should end. SWAT teams are used more 50,000 times a year and you never noticed, as far as I can tell. But one corp that you like is blaming Obama, and now you're gobbling it up.
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Well I don't control the media either left or right leaning, I pick up on story ans we run with it. This has nothing to do with Obama for the most part but probably more to do with congress. That said, if it was any president left or right this still would chap my ass.

The nonsense about the EPA not having any authority
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The EPA was formed by Nixon(R) through executive order in 1972, for any federal entity to have power to make law must be ratified by congress and the EPA was not.
 
Sounds like someone in D.C. is pissed that NAFTA didn't completely obliterate American manufacturing jobs, and is determined to wipe out the rest of them.

20,000,000 illegal aliens in the US, and this is what they spend taxpayer dollars for.

This is idiocy. Jackasses.
 
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Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
Well I don't control the media either left or right leaning, I pick up on story ans we run with it. This has nothing to do with Obama for the most part but probably more to do with congress. That said, if it was any president left or right this still would chap my ass.

The EPA was formed by Nixon(R) through executive order in 1972, for any federal entity to have power to make law must be ratified by congress and the EPA was not.
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The stories about the abuses of SWAT raids have been in the news for years.

And the EPA doesnt make laws. No agencies make laws. That is just more wingnuttery
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
The stories about the abuses of SWAT raids have been in the news for years.

And the EPA doesnt make laws. No agencies make laws. That is just more wingnuttery
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You're right - agencies don't make laws. They decide their own scope of function, pass regulations which they enforce within their own governed federal court system which is headed by their own appointed magistrates and judiciary officials.

Yes - they don't make laws.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Obamas Big Brother - Police State Law. Comeing soon to a neighborhood near you.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Aunt Spiker said:
You're right - agencies don't make laws. They decide their own scope of function, pass regulations which they enforce within their own governed federal court system which is headed by their own appointed magistrates and judiciary officials.

Yes - they don't make laws.
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All of which is done with approval from Congress. Thank you :bows:
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
All of which is done with approval from Congress. Thank you :bows:
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No - that was done with a ruling by the Supreme Court.

Congress created agencies.
The Supreme Court ruled that the agencies have the power to interpret and apply their own rules and regulations as per their own interpretation of their enabling act.

Congress dropped the ball, so to say, by being so ****ing lazy, and the Scotus kicked it down the field for a pro-agency field goal.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Aunt Spiker said:
No - that was done with a ruling by the Supreme Court.
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No, the law that the EPA used to raid Gibson was passed by Congress and signed by a republican president.

Congress created agencies.
The Supreme Court ruled that the agencies have the power to interpret and apply their own rules and regulations as per their own interpretation of their enabling act.

Congress dropped the ball, so to say, by being so ****ing lazy, and the Scotus kicked it down the field for a pro-agency field goal.
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Not in this case. Congress passed a law making the importation of these materials illegal and gave the EPA the power to enforce this law.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
The stories about the abuses of SWAT raids have been in the news for years.
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And the EPA doesnt make laws. No agencies make laws. That is just more wingnuttery
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The stories about the abuses of SWAT raids have been in the news for years.
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Your right and for the most part probably on people who deserve it. Now it has come to raiding manufacturers with dozens or hundreds of employee's, like I said when does it reach is own limitations.
And the EPA doesnt make laws. No agencies make laws. That is just more wingnuttery
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You are correct in regards to law, I used the term to push a point and regulations are the new law, this the EPA can do.
 
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Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
You are correct in regards to law, I used the term to push a point and regulations are the new law, this the EPA can do.
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I understood that, but I still think it's wingnuttery. I know that the minarchists don't like the idea of regulatory powers delegated by Congress, but it's not just a fact of life; it's 100% constitutional.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
I understood that, but I still think it's wingnuttery. I know that the minarchists don't like the idea of regulatory powers delegated by Congress, but it's not just a fact of life; it's 100% constitutional.
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This is true but regulations are now being pushed through EPA via the executive branch..and the left and right wings can be held accountable on this. This twisting and perverting our way of life and constitution, the bottom line is that the EPA must be reigned in and neutered it has gone to far.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:
This is true but regulations are now being pushed through EPA via the executive branch..and the left and right wings can be held accountable on this. This twisting and perverting our way of life and constitution, the bottom line is that the EPA must be reigned in and neutered it has gone to far.
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This is not an example of the EPA "pushing" anything. It is the direct result of a law passed by Congress and signed by a republican president.

If you want to complain about the escalating militarization of the police, and the high incarceration rate in the US, then focusing on this one case is an awfully poor way of going about it. It appears to be the same kind of uber-partisanship that you claim to abhor and it's not even a case of the EPA "making law". In this instance, it's a case of the EPA using powers delegated to it by Congress to enforce a law passed by Congress.

But id you want to start a thread about the escalating militarization of the police, and the high incarceration rate in the US, just send me a link and I'll be happy to join in and support your opposition
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
This is not an example of the EPA "pushing" anything. It is the direct result of a law passed by Congress and signed by a republican president.

If you want to complain about the escalating militarization of the police, and the high incarceration rate in the US, then focusing on this one case is an awfully poor way of going about it. It appears to be the same kind of uber-partisanship that you claim to abhor and it's not even a case of the EPA "making law". In this instance, it's a case of the EPA using powers delegated to it by Congress to enforce a law passed by Congress.

But id you want to start a thread about the escalating militarization of the police, and the high incarceration rate in the US, just send me a link and I'll be happy to join in and support your opposition
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In sense your right, my real complaint is with congress and the ineptness they perform everyday. My complaint is what you state and the EPA is just a tool I wish to take away, it is just a avenue for congress to subvert our constitution and rights. I have many problems with our government and the over reaching powers that it has, I pick no sides except the side of what the constitution states, hence the term, "very conservative" or lets say contitutionalist. This isn't a party or presidential incident or complaint, it's more or less a complaint of the militarization of our law enforcement and it's over reaching powers and violations of our constitutional rights, along with their it's mentality that it's above the law.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:
No, the law that the EPA used to raid Gibson was passed by Congress and signed by a republican president.



Not in this case. Congress passed a law making the importation of these materials illegal and gave the EPA the power to enforce this law.
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Oh duh - Ithought you were referring to agencies in general for some reason.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Aunt Spiker said:
Oh duh - Ithought you were referring to agencies in general for some reason.
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Well at our current pace this will be the case.
 
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