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US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

check out heritage guitars ;)

if you want the Gibson quality at a more reasonable price, look at a guitar built in the original Gibson factory by the original Gibson employees in Kalamazoo, MI. they are made how the Gibsons used to be. excellent quality. all of the original heritage folks were all long time luthiers and guitar makers at gibson who left gibson to start their own company to uphold the "heritage" and legacy of what gibson once was.

Heritage Guitar Inc. of Kalamazoo - The History of Heritage Guitar, Inc. of Kalamazoo


i want their H555. she's a beauty.

I guess it just coincidence that Heritage Guitars is a union shop.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Um... I guess I'm glad that I play a Fender...

if they have documented the source of the rosewood board for you, otherwise you may be screwed, too
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

You get your news from the "naturalnews blog," They determine what is legal and what is not in your mind? I'll wait for the rule of law to run its course just the same if you don't mind.

While we are waiting, please cite the cases where someone in this country has been busted for having an old guitar with rosewood and ebony?

I suggest you read up on the Lacey Act on your own if you don't believe the article. I believe you will find that they reported it correctly. Although the Lacey Act is enforced somewhat selectively, it can be used to confiscate any item with exotic wood or anther banned material in it where the owner cannot document that the materials were collected and imported legally. Have you ever watched Antique Road Show and seen the experts on it mention potential problems with the antiques brought in ??
 
Federal agents last week stormed the Gibson Guitar factories in the Tennessee cities of Nashville and Memphis, confiscating pallets of exotic woods, computer equipment and several guitars.The raids were part of an ongoing investigation into Gibson’s procurement of the materials it uses to construct its iconic instruments, which includes the Les Paul, the best-selling guitar of all time.
[h=3][/h]
Henry Juszkiewicz, Gibson chief executive, said the justice department was misguided and that his company was fully compliant with all US and international laws.
“Gibson has complied with foreign laws and believes it is innocent of any wrongdoing,” he said. “We will fight aggressively to prove our innocence.”
The US Department of Justice, which conducted the raids, declined to comment.

US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony - FT.com

Gibsons response to the raids here....

Henry Juszkiewicz, Chairman and CEO of Gibson Guitar Corp., has responded to the August 24 raid of Gibson facilities in Nashville and Memphis by the Federal Government. In a press release, Juszkiewicz said: “Gibson is innocent and will fight to protect its rights. Gibson has complied with foreign laws and believes it is innocent of ANY wrong doing. We will fight aggressively to prove our innocence.”
Gibson-logo_t.jpg
The raids forced Gibson to cease manufacturing operations and send workers home for the day while armed agents executed the search warrants. “Agents seized wood that was Forest Stewardship Council controlled,” Juszkiewicz said. “Gibson has a long history of supporting sustainable and responsible sources of wood and has worked diligently with entities such as the Rainforest Alliance and Greenpeace to secure FSC-certified supplies. The wood seized on August 24 satisfied FSC standards.”
Juszkiewicz believes that the Justice Department is bullying Gibson without filing charges.
“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.”

Gibson Guitar Corp. Responds to Federal Raid

Please pay particular attention to the video at the bottom of the page for the CEO's direct response...

IMHO, this is outrageous....It smells of the Holder Justice Dept. bully tactics...I wonder what Gibson really did to draw the ire of Holder, and Obama....Not contribute? Say something against Obama? jackboots away!

j-mac
 
Chicago thug politics, Gibson is an example of what can happen to you if you don't play ball. Gibson may or may not have stepped on toes but they are definately an example of what this white house can do to you if they want.CEOs all over the country are paying attention!
 
Chicago thug politics, Gibson is an example of what can happen to you if you don't play ball. Gibson may or may not have stepped on toes but they are definately an example of what this white house can do to you if they want.CEOs all over the country are paying attention!

Wow, then I would say we are no longer the America I knew....So you think that DoJ, and Obama are doing this to send a message?

j-mac
 
Is this the third or fourth thread on the exact same topic?
 
Wow, then I would say we are no longer the America I knew....So you think that DoJ, and Obama are doing this to send a message?

j-mac

A distinct possibilty if you look into it. Gibson has been getting same wood from same source for many years, why this why now?
 
This is not the first time that the Federal government has pursued someone for violating another nation's trade laws, far from it. It is also not the first time that they have done so without so much as a request from the nation in question. If it turned out that the Indian regulation mentioned in the OP had either expired or been superseded, it wouldn't be the first time that such a non-regulation had been enforced by Federal authorities, either.

I do not believe this has anything to do with some kind of feud or disagreement between Gibson and the White House. I believe it has a lot more to do with the fact that prosecutors are not rated on how judiciously they use their discretion. They are rated on number of convictions, conviction rate, total years sentenced -- metrics that have nothing to do with actual justice. As such, ambitious prosecutors aren't going to miss opportunities to make a case, even if on its face it seems absurd.

It also has a lot to do with the fact that Congress has ceded way too much power to the executive branch (in a trend that began well before Obama was even born), and with the fact that what decisions Congress actually makes for itself on matters of justice are so politically loaded that the result is great for a sound-bite and terrible for a courtroom.

The specific brand of malarkey Gibson is being forced to endure has been going on for the past 20 or 30 years. You can't blame it on Obama.
 
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This is not the first time that the Federal government has pursued someone for violating another nation's trade laws, far from it. It is also not the first time that they have done so without so much as a request from the nation in question. If it turned out that the Indian regulation mentioned in the OP had either expired or been superseded, it wouldn't be the first time that such a non-regulation had been enforced by Federal authorities, either.


Not saying you are wrong, but can you provide some specific examples, so that a comparison can be made?

I do not believe this has anything to do with some kind of feud or disagreement between Gibson and the White House. I believe it has a lot more to do with the fact that prosecutors are not rated on how judiciously they use their discretion. They are rated on number of convictions, conviction rate, total years sentenced -- metrics that have nothing to do with actual justice. As such, ambitious prosecutors aren't going to miss opportunities to make a case, even if on its face it seems absurd.

This might hold some water if there was actual charges being levied....No charges so far have been made. Just Holder's thugs raiding a legit business at gunpoint, and taking what they want.

It also has a lot to do with the fact that Congress has ceded way too much power to the executive branch (in a trend that began well before Obama was even born), and with the fact that what decisions Congress actually makes for itself on matters of justice are so politically loaded that the result is great for a sound-bite and terrible for a courtroom.

No doubt about that. But it takes an executive willing to use that power. Why now? And why only one maker of guitars? Surely, makers like Fender use the same ebony.

The specific brand of malarkey Gibson is being forced to endure has been going on for the past 20 or 30 years. You can't blame it on Obama.

Why not? In this case Gibson guitars is the company enduring this crap, whether or not the tactic, or policy has been in place, it is the Obama administration that is using it now.

j-mac
 
Is this the third or fourth thread on the exact same topic?

didn't see any others, if you don't want to participate then don't post...There solved.

j-mac
 
Perhaps you should have checked before you started another thread on the same topic. http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/107711-your-guitar-doj-approved.html

See this is why, I rarely go into other forums other than BN mostly because I just don't have the time to sit here all day anymore and jump around...The other forums don't get the traffic, and therefore essentially the story is buried. Maybe that is what libs want....

But like I said, you are free to not participate if you wish....If you have nothing to offer, then I will move on.

j-mac
 
Chicago thug politics, Gibson is an example of what can happen to you if you don't play ball. Gibson may or may not have stepped on toes but they are definately an example of what this white house can do to you if they want.CEOs all over the country are paying attention!

That essentially seems to be what happened.
 
Not saying you are wrong, but can you provide some specific examples, so that a comparison can be made?

Sure. This one is a few years old, but I've been reading a lot of books on overcriminalization and this is one that burned itself into my brain:

Case Studies

This might hold some water if there was actual charges being levied....No charges so far have been made. Just Holder's thugs raiding a legit business at gunpoint, and taking what they want.

I think you're splitting hairs -- a search-and-seizure like this is an obvious prelude to either a prosecution or a settlement. The Feds wouldn't be going after Gibson so publicly unless they meant to do bad things to them, given the opportunity.

No doubt about that. But it takes an executive willing to use that power. Why now?

You seem to be operating under the assumption that the President runs the Department of Justice. He certainly has authority over the DoJ, but he doesn't spend any portion of his day looking over the shoulders of the US Attorneys employed there -- that's the Attorney General's job. Either this was started by an ambitious US Attorney, or the Attorney General felt like it, but I rate the potential that Obama directed this at "low."

And why only one maker of guitars? Surely, makers like Fender use the same ebony.

Because they want to see how far they can get on this one before they start chasing after other people or companies for related offenses. This is a test case.

Why not? In this case Gibson guitars is the company enduring this crap, whether or not the tactic, or policy has been in place, it is the Obama administration that is using it now.

Because this is a problem that goes way beyond any President. It has to do with how the American public perceives justice and, again, how prosecutors are in turn perceived.

Generally speaking, the American people equate prison sentences and fines with justice -- the higher the sentence or the larger the fine, the greater the measure of justice achieved. Obviously, not everybody looks at it that way, and even those who do can from time to time look at a hefty sentence or fine and go, "Whoah, that's too much." Regardless, that general observation holds true in most cases.

The proof of that is to be found in how our politicians from coast to coast talk about crime and punishment -- "tough on crime" is a desirable stamp to claim for oneself, and always translates to an expansion of the number of criminal offenses, longer sentences, mandatory minimums, and ultimately higher arrest and prosecution rates. To resist any of these in any way, or to fail to promote their expansion in some way, is to run the risk of being branded "soft on crime."

The public as a whole wants more ways for the government to criminalize and arrest people, and wants convicts to suffer stiffer penalties -- and so our politicians duel with each other in an endless tennis match of more-is-better.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Only if your geetar was made by a non-union geetar manufacturer.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

I know years ago the steel workers union showed up at Gibson for a shakedown. The man in charge of Gibson - I forget his name - asked what they wanted with his shop. They said, "You make steel guitars." He said, "Yeah, but we don't make them out of steel." They laughed and said it didn't matter. In the end, they didn't unionize Gibson.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Not sure of the purpose of your thread. Are you pro-illegal purchases??

The illegality you speak of has yet to be proven, or even charged. The feds just busted in - again - took some valuable material, and has yet to return it. The loss of material alone is worth a million dollars to Gibson, not counting the loss in sales of products that could be made from the confiscated material.

Screw that. The gov needs to file charges or return the stuff.
 
Sure. This one is a few years old, but I've been reading a lot of books on overcriminalization and this is one that burned itself into my brain:

Case Studies



I think you're splitting hairs -- a search-and-seizure like this is an obvious prelude to either a prosecution or a settlement. The Feds wouldn't be going after Gibson so publicly unless they meant to do bad things to them, given the opportunity.



You seem to be operating under the assumption that the President runs the Department of Justice. He certainly has authority over the DoJ, but he doesn't spend any portion of his day looking over the shoulders of the US Attorneys employed there -- that's the Attorney General's job. Either this was started by an ambitious US Attorney, or the Attorney General felt like it, but I rate the potential that Obama directed this at "low."



Because they want to see how far they can get on this one before they start chasing after other people or companies for related offenses. This is a test case.



Because this is a problem that goes way beyond any President. It has to do with how the American public perceives justice and, again, how prosecutors are in turn perceived.

Generally speaking, the American people equate prison sentences and fines with justice -- the higher the sentence or the larger the fine, the greater the measure of justice achieved. Obviously, not everybody looks at it that way, and even those who do can from time to time look at a hefty sentence or fine and go, "Whoah, that's too much." Regardless, that general observation holds true in most cases.

The proof of that is to be found in how our politicians from coast to coast talk about crime and punishment -- "tough on crime" is a desirable stamp to claim for oneself, and always translates to an expansion of the number of criminal offenses, longer sentences, mandatory minimums, and ultimately higher arrest and prosecution rates. To resist any of these in any way, or to fail to promote their expansion in some way, is to run the risk of being branded "soft on crime."

The public as a whole wants more ways for the government to criminalize and arrest people, and wants convicts to suffer stiffer penalties -- and so our politicians duel with each other in an endless tennis match of more-is-better.

Thanks for the case Dan. I guess what I am saying is in this 'over reach', using the office, in this case US Attorney, or USAG, or heck maybe even President, (I still don't think it is impossible that Obama couldn't pick up a phone and tell Holder to lean on them) And no one willing, or courageous enough to investigate into the why's, then we are on a slippery slope to losing this country.

j-mac
 
With all the problems this country currently has you'd think this administration would have better things to do but then they are the cause of many of the problems so I'm not that surprised. What really stands out here is that the goverment actually suggested to Gibson that if they took there fingerboard work overseas that the problem would go away. Huh? and you wonder why we have the unemployment where it is. These clowns are actually sending more jobs overseas than they are helping create here. Another point here is that Gibson is a non-union shop with a CEO that has contributed to Republican campaigns while the competion (Fendor, a union shop) has not been bothered. So this is clearly politically motivated. If Obama gets another 4 years I would be concerned for business's that are non-union & have CEO's that lean Republican, we could be looking at a mass exodus of jobs if Obamas gestapo teams are sent out to take these companies down (amoung many other of his policies that export jobs).
 
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Because this is a problem that goes way beyond any President. It has to do with how the American public perceives justice and, again, how prosecutors are in turn perceived.

Generally speaking, the American people equate prison sentences and fines with justice -- the higher the sentence or the larger the fine, the greater the measure of justice achieved. Obviously, not everybody looks at it that way, and even those who do can from time to time look at a hefty sentence or fine and go, "Whoah, that's too much." Regardless, that general observation holds true in most cases.

The proof of that is to be found in how our politicians from coast to coast talk about crime and punishment -- "tough on crime" is a desirable stamp to claim for oneself, and always translates to an expansion of the number of criminal offenses, longer sentences, mandatory minimums, and ultimately higher arrest and prosecution rates. To resist any of these in any way, or to fail to promote their expansion in some way, is to run the risk of being branded "soft on crime."

The public as a whole wants more ways for the government to criminalize and arrest people, and wants convicts to suffer stiffer penalties -- and so our politicians duel with each other in an endless tennis match of more-is-better.

Additional proof of what you say can be found by looking at our incarceration rate, which is the highest in the world.

Thanks for the case Dan. I guess what I am saying is in this 'over reach', using the office, in this case US Attorney, or USAG, or heck maybe even President, (I still don't think it is impossible that Obama couldn't pick up a phone and tell Holder to lean on them) And no one willing, or courageous enough to investigate into the why's, then we are on a slippery slope to losing this country.

j-mac

If you have ANY evidence of "over-reach", please feel free to post it.
 
Additional proof of what you say can be found by looking at our incarceration rate, which is the highest in the world.



If you have ANY evidence of "over-reach", please feel free to post it.

They showed up at Gibson's plant with a heavily armed SWAT team.
 
So what? I asked about "over-reach" not "over-reaction".

Gibson had all the necessary documentation to prove they were in legal possession of the material. The government confiscated the material, anyway and have yet to return it.
 
Gibson had all the necessary documentation to prove they were in legal possession of the material. The government confiscated the material, anyway and have yet to return it.

It's the law. When the police arrest someone, they don't let them go just because they claim they have the right paperwork.

However, I will say that confiscation laws (and there are plenty of them) are often unfair, but we wouldn't have them if it weren't for the rightwingers who pushed for them.
 
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