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US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

LuckyDan

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Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Obama raids Gibson

Federal agents swooped in on Gibson Guitar Wednesday, raiding factories and offices in Memphis and Nashville, seizing several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars.

It isn't the first time that agents of the Fish and Wildlife Service have come knocking at the storied maker of such iconic instruments as the Les Paul electric guitar, the J-160E acoustic-electric John Lennon played, and essential jazz-boxes such as Charlie Christian's ES-150. In 2009 the Feds seized several guitars and pallets of wood from a Gibson factory, and both sides have been wrangling over the goods in a case with the delightful name "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms."

Guitar Frets: Environmental Enforcement Leaves Musicians in Fear | Postmodern Times - WSJ.com

I've always been a little miffed that Gibson prices their stuff out of my range, but damn. Raid them?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Well the problem is this (Feds go after Gibson Guitars — RT)

Gibson plants in both Nashville and Memphis were raided by the federal government last week, though Gibson Guitars believes that they are in the right. Agents attest, however, that materials used by the manufacturer of such iconic instruments as the Les Paul and SG break international laws.

“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington DC has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of US law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India,” says Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz in a statement. The legislation in place suggests that if the wood from one tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal, but by completing the process in their Tennessee plant, Gibson is breaking the law. This interpretation comes from federal agents, however, and Gibson notes that last week’s raid took action “without the support and consent of the government in India.”

Thus, the US went and raided Gibson due to them breaking Indian laws, not American ones. Thus this brings up the questions Will the US start enforcing the laws of other nations in America?
and 2) Just how much power does the Federal government have?
 
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Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Not sure of the purpose of your thread. Are you pro-illegal purchases??

it does highlight a concern that is growing among musicians who are subject to travel outside the USA and then return
i have a modest guitar collection and would be unable to document the source of materials from any of my instruments
and where any were modified, say using bone as the nut material, i would be unable to prove its source
i happen to own a les paul with an ebony board (the one featured in the article). like most of my instruments, i bought it used in the 80's. other than a guitar and case i have nothing to document that its materials were legitimately imported. no way would i take that out of country
other, more recently made guitars from boutique luthiers, tend to use a variety of exotic woods, whose source i could not document
the point is, those of us who purchased these items in good faith now risk their confiscation as well as criminal punishment and fines
a distinction should be made between the innocent buyer and the not-so-innocent builders. the feds should be going after those who intended to break the law, placing others of us at risk. that they have gibson in their sights indicates they are
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

it does highlight a concern that is growing among musicians who are subject to travel outside the USA and then return
i have a modest guitar collection and would be unable to document the source of materials from any of my instruments
and where any were modified, say using bone as the nut material, i would be unable to prove its source
i happen to own a les paul with an ebony board (the one featured in the article). like most of my instruments, i bought it used in the 80's. other than a guitar and case i have nothing to document that its materials were legitimately imported. no way would i take that out of country
other, more recently made guitars from boutique luthiers, tend to use a variety of exotic woods, whose source i could not document
the point is, those of us who purchased these items in good faith now risk their confiscation as well as criminal punishment and fines
a distinction should be made between the innocent buyer and the not-so-innocent builders. the feds should be going after those who intended to break the law, placing others of us at risk. that they have gibson in their sights indicates they are

Guitars with rosewood and ebony and other endangered species are too valuable to risk to damage in out of country travel. It would be wise to travel abroad with guitars made from wood legal today. In this country, existing uses of endangered woods are grandfathered. The purpose of the laws are to prevent the trafficking of endangered species.

"A motion filed last month by the U.S. Department of Justice alleges Gibson Guitar knew it was trafficking in endangered timber when it was busted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in November 2009, reports the Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA)."

"The federal prosecutors say that while Gibson knew of the questionable timber, and even acknowledged it as such, the guitar-maker went ahead with buying ebony from Nagel, a supplier in Germany. "

"Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

Endangered species trafficking: What did Gibson Guitar know?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Obama's days as president are surely numbered.....Would he be so bold, and go after the foriegn markets that do trade with American companies?....NO.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Obama's days as president are surely numbered.....Would he be so bold, and go after the foriegn markets that do trade with American companies?....NO.

You are right he either has 507 or 1968 days left to be president (my math might be off some).

What does this have to do with the guitars? Was it Obama who made the decision to raid the Gibson shop?I figured the president was a rather busy job with a lot of things to juggle, I guess I did not realize how many mundane things such as various raids and stuff he has to be involved with personally.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

it does highlight a concern that is growing among musicians who are subject to travel outside the USA and then return
i have a modest guitar collection and would be unable to document the source of materials from any of my instruments
and where any were modified, say using bone as the nut material, i would be unable to prove its source
i happen to own a les paul with an ebony board (the one featured in the article). like most of my instruments, i bought it used in the 80's. other than a guitar and case i have nothing to document that its materials were legitimately imported. no way would i take that out of country
other, more recently made guitars from boutique luthiers, tend to use a variety of exotic woods, whose source i could not document
the point is, those of us who purchased these items in good faith now risk their confiscation as well as criminal punishment and fines
a distinction should be made between the innocent buyer and the not-so-innocent builders. the feds should be going after those who intended to break the law, placing others of us at risk. that they have gibson in their sights indicates they are
And you shouldnt have to account for the materials in the guitar. You bought a guitar not a piece of wood. This all total bull****.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

And you shouldnt have to account for the materials in the guitar. You bought a guitar not a piece of wood. This all total bull****.

You don't have to account for the materials in your guitar in this country, existing uses are grandfathered. However, it is illegal to traffic endangered species which is what Gibson is alleged to to have done. See Post #5 above.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I am not sure how I feel about this story, one the one hand I understand the need to protect the trees in a protected forest, but there is a greater issue that should be addressed that threatens the Nation in areas of education, the budget deficit, jobs, and our security.

That issue is illegal aliens, and the total lack of concern for this situation by Obama's lackeys is no surprise, and neither is the wood raid because it's a conservation issue.

Obama's "stimulus plan" gave Solyndra a "green" Co. $535 million and Obama Talked about how this was the wave of the future and it turns out it was and now they are going under but not before billionaire George Kaiser a supporter of Solyndra managed to raise $50,000 and $100,000 that went in to the DNC, Kaiser personally gave $53,500 to Obama’s 2008 campaign.

So was the $535 million a pay back? And isn't obvious the a Co. that needs $535 million is not worthy of of getting it.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I know people who work for Gibson in Nashville, this raid has put their jobs at risk. It's incredibly stupid and the raid should have never happened.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I know people who work for Gibson in Nashville, this raid has put their jobs at risk. It's incredibly stupid and the raid should have never happened.

If the alleged charges are true, then it was Gibson that put its employee's jobs as risk, which is very stupid of them, it should never have happened.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I am not sure how I feel about this story, one the one hand I understand the need to protect the trees in a protected forest, but there is a greater issue that should be addressed that threatens the Nation in areas of education, the budget deficit, jobs, and our security.

So it is your opinion that until we have fixed all the problems "in areas of education, the budget deficit, jobs, and our security," we should suspend all laws?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

So, let me get this straight. America demands other nations enforce our copyright laws but when we try to enforce Indian law's application to Indian products, it's bad or something.

I know people who work for Gibson in Nashville, this raid has put their jobs at risk. It's incredibly stupid and the raid should have never happened.

And raiding a drug dealer's meth lab puts his employees' jobs at risk. So?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Guitars with rosewood and ebony and other endangered species are too valuable to risk to damage in out of country travel. It would be wise to travel abroad with guitars made from wood legal today. In this country, existing uses of endangered woods are grandfathered. The purpose of the laws are to prevent the trafficking of endangered species.

"A motion filed last month by the U.S. Department of Justice alleges Gibson Guitar knew it was trafficking in endangered timber when it was busted by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in November 2009, reports the Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA)."

"The federal prosecutors say that while Gibson knew of the questionable timber, and even acknowledged it as such, the guitar-maker went ahead with buying ebony from Nagel, a supplier in Germany. "

"Madagascar's rainforests have been hard hit by demand for rosewood and ebony. In the aftermath of a March 2009 coup which disposed the island nation's president, Madagascar's rainforest parks were plundered by armed gangs funded by timber traffickers. Illegal logging was accompanied by the rise of a commercial bushmeat market for endangered lemurs and an increase in forest fires."

Endangered species trafficking: What did Gibson Guitar know?

If Gibson broke the law in 2009, why were no charges ever filed ???
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

You don't have to account for the materials in your guitar in this country, existing uses are grandfathered. However, it is illegal to traffic endangered species which is what Gibson is alleged to to have done. See Post #5 above.

Not according to the Lacey Act:

In the meantime, those who own Gibson guitars, and potentially even guitars of other brands, may want to prepare themselves for potential targeting by the federal government as well. The vague wording of the US Department of Agriculture's (USDA) Lacey Act of 2008, which is the law that was somehow used to warrant the Gibson raids, places all guitar owners and resellers in the cross fire of potential federal scrutiny.

"According to [The Lacey Act], if you bought a guitar from us and you resell it, you are criminally liable," stated Juszkiewicz. "Everyone who touches the product, the store owner who sells that guitar, is criminally liable. It doesn't matter whether you knew or not that there was some issue here. It's a pretty dangerous precedent in my opinion."

Coverage in the Calgary Herald adds that guitar owners who do not have proper documentation for their instrument could potentially face its confiscation if the Feds feel as though something about the guitar is in violation of the Lacey Act.

It does not matter if the guitar was produced in full accordance with the law -- if the government decides that some aspect of the guitar is in violation of the Lacey Act, it could theoretically seize it or any other wood-containing instrument at airports, country borders, and other areas, and even arrest the instrument owners in the process.
Learn more: Federal gestapo illegally raid Gibson Guitar factories, arbitrarily confiscate millions of dollars worth of wood used to make instruments

Reportedly, Juskiewicz, CEO of Gibson is a big Republican donor, while his primary competitor at C.F. Martin is a Democratic donor. Evidently Martin uses the exact same wood in their guitars but have not been raided. Coincidence ???
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

If Gibson broke the law in 2009, why were no charges ever filed ???

From what I've read, it says alleged charges. I don't know the outcome of the case. Perhaps they needed more evidence and that was the reason for this raid.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Not according to the Lacey Act:


Learn more: Federal gestapo illegally raid Gibson Guitar factories, arbitrarily confiscate millions of dollars worth of wood used to make instruments

Reportedly, Juskiewicz, CEO of Gibson is a big Republican donor, while his primary competitor at C.F. Martin is a Democratic donor. Evidently Martin uses the exact same wood in their guitars but have not been raided. Coincidence ???

You get your news from the "naturalnews blog," They determine what is legal and what is not in your mind? I'll wait for the rule of law to run its course just the same if you don't mind.

While we are waiting, please cite the cases where someone in this country has been busted for having an old guitar with rosewood and ebony?
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

While we are waiting, please cite the cases where someone in this country has been busted for having an old guitar with rosewood and ebony?


1.) Obama jokes about using the tax code to punish his enemies.
2.) Obama sends agents to raid Gibsons but not his competitors who use the very same wood. Gibson CEO donates to the Republicans, competitor CEO to the Democrats.

To your question, is this close enough:


Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork—which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.

There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.​
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Um... I guess I'm glad that I play a Fender...
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

1.) To your question

Still waiting for the answer. There was nothing in your opinionated rant or referenced article that cited anyone in this country being busted for owning an old instrument made with ebony and/or rosewood, the use of which is grandfathered.

All those that have had any problems were people trying to cross the border with them without the proper paperwork.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I've always been a little miffed that Gibson prices their stuff out of my range

check out heritage guitars ;)

if you want the Gibson quality at a more reasonable price, look at a guitar built in the original Gibson factory by the original Gibson employees in Kalamazoo, MI. they are made how the Gibsons used to be. excellent quality. all of the original heritage folks were all long time luthiers and guitar makers at gibson who left gibson to start their own company to uphold the "heritage" and legacy of what gibson once was.

Heritage Guitar Inc. of Kalamazoo - The History of Heritage Guitar, Inc. of Kalamazoo


i want their H555. she's a beauty.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Only if your geetar was made by a non-union geetar manufacturer.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

The federal government seized wood, guitars and electronic records
from Gibson’s Nashville warehouses in 2009 and again last week. According to [Gibson Guitar CEO Henry] Juszkiewicz, that’s when the
Feds made an unusual request from the American manufacturer.
On KMJ airwaves, Juszkiewicz revealed that representatives of the US government told Gibson that their legal issues would “disappear” if
they used Madagascar labor instead of American labor. Gibson Guitar wouldn’t be the first company to learn that thanks to our grotesquely bloated rogue government, using American labor is not
always feasible.
 
Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

check out heritage guitars ;)
if you want the Gibson quality at a more reasonable price, look at a guitar built in the original Gibson factory by the original Gibson employees in Kalamazoo, MI. they are made how the Gibsons used to be. excellent quality. all of the original heritage folks were all long time luthiers and guitar makers at gibson who left gibson to start their own company to uphold the "heritage" and legacy of what gibson once was.

Heritage Guitar Inc. of Kalamazoo - The History of Heritage Guitar, Inc. of Kalamazoo

i want their H555. she's a beauty.
This guy is a bit Fancy- but makes one great guitar.
http://www.beneteauguitars.com/
http://www.beneteauguitars.com/gallery/gallery.html
http://www.beneteauguitars.com/models/models_left.html

Backlogged 20 months to pay 7K+.
 
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