US agents raid Gibson Guitar over ebony

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Catawba said:

Link to where the countries in question said that what Gibson allegedly did was legal please?



Sorry, but unsubstantiated speculation does not back up your claim that the 4th and 6th amendment was violated by DOJ and the courts that issued the search warrants.

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My claim of the 4th and 6th being violated will have to wait until Gibson day in court, until then. We all must remember now.. especially you people on the left that in this country citizens are innocent until proven guilty, all of our so called evidence is currently heresy until it is admitted into court.
Gibson Guitar Wails on Federal Raid - WSJ.com
Here is a plank of Indian Rosewood. It's been cut the rough dimension in India, which is a requirement of their export rules. It was approved by the export officials in India for export, it was accepted by U.S. Customs for import. We have all the documentation of thesefacts for every lot of wood we use here in Bozeman and everywhere in the company," says O'Brien.
Snip:
Federal Officials Raid Gibson Guitar Factories In Tennessee, Bozeman Plant Could Be Next - News Story - NBCMontana NBC Montana
I took a few extra minutes to look up a site that is left friendly, it is a bit old but non the less there are 100's of sites and as recent as Sept. 9 2011 that make the same claim and thus far no one is refuting it. Non the less like Barbarian mentioned no one here has had their day in court yet, and this is where it will have to be played out. The difference between me and others and perhaps you is that Gibson currently in my eyes is innocent until proven guilty. If in fact there was intentional smuggling and violations of the law and proven so, then I am with you. Now if it goes the other way I hope we all seek some kind of justice for the abuse Gibson and been put through, unlike some here I will not engage in labeling, insults and bating..been there and done that and I've had enough..too old for that sh!t..

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

deltabtry said:

My claim of the 4th and 6th being violated will have to wait until Gibson day in court, until then. We all must remember now.. especially you people on the left that in this country citizens are innocent until proven guilty, all of our so called evidence is currently heresy until it is admitted into court.

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It wasn't the people on the left that started this thread, and no one has said Gibson is guilty. What we were saying is that for so many to claim they are being unfairly targeted is BS based on the available facts in the case.

Gibson Guitar Wails on Federal Raid - WSJ.com
Here is a plank of Indian Rosewood. It's been cut the rough dimension in India, which is a requirement of their export rules. It was approved by the export officials in India for export, it was accepted by U.S. Customs for import. We have all the documentation of thesefacts for every lot of wood we use here in Bozeman and everywhere in the company," says O'Brien.
Snip:
Federal Officials Raid Gibson Guitar Factories In Tennessee, Bozeman Plant Could Be Next - News Story - NBCMontana NBC Montana
I took a few extra minutes to look up a site that is left friendly, it is a bit old but non the less there are 100's of sites and as recent as Sept. 9 2011 that make the same claim and thus far no one is refuting it. Non the less like Barbarian mentioned no one here has had their day in court yet, and this is where it will have to be played out. The difference between me and others and perhaps you is that Gibson currently in my eyes is innocent until proven guilty. If in fact there was intentional smuggling and violations of the law and proven so, then I am with you. Now if it goes the other way I hope we all seek some kind of justice for the abuse Gibson and been put through, unlike some here I will not engage in labeling, insults and bating..been there and done that and I've had enough..too old for that sh!t..

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Again, as was pointed out by earlier by Lord Tammerlain, "The government currently it argueing that Gibson importerd ebony wood claiming it is a veneer, while the wood actually brought into the US is too thick to be a veneer.

If this is the case then Gibson violated the law, the government of course needed to gather the wood and associated documents in order to either proof or disprove their case. As for the length of time, the vast majority of court cases vs corporations take years to work through the system."

Of course they are considered innocent until proven guilty, no one has said otherwise. The argument has been against those that have made the unfounded claim that Gibson is being unfairly targeted, or that the 4th and 6th amendment has been ignored in pursuing this investigation. There are simply no facts to substantiate those claims.

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Mr. Nix went to Madagascar in June 2008 on a trip organized by environmental groups to talk to local officials about selling responsibly harvested wood to makers of musical instruments. Afterward, in emails later seized by the government, he referred to "widespread corruption and theft of valuable woods" and the possibility of buying ebony and rosewood from Madagascar on "the grey market."

In a June 4 court filing, Jerry Martin, U.S. Attorney for central Tennessee, quoted the emails, and said "Nix knew that the grey market meant purchasing contraband."

Gibson has denied the allegation and said Mr. Nix's emails were quoted out of context


The government has focused on a March 2009 shipment of ebony from Madagascar intended for guitar fingerboards. Madagascar law bars the export of certain unfinished wood products, according to both Gibson and the government. Gibson says the ebony had been cut into pieces and that local officials approved the export as a legal sale of finished goods.

U.S. officials described the wood as "sawn timber" and said Madagascar officials were "defrauded" by a local exporter about the nature of the product.

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From the WSJ article. Reading the bolded areas to me sort of indicates at the very least Gibson knew of the possibility of being able to import unfinished wood through the use of corrupt exporters. If Gibson did intentionally work with corrupt exporters is something that is yet to be proven of course. But it certainly gives the government case some merit does it not

As for last week's raid, the government said it had evidence that Indian ebony was "fraudulently" labeled in an attempt to evade an Indian ban on exports of unfinished wood.

"It is very possible that a broker made the mistake in filling out a form," Mr. Juszkiewicz said. Gibson says the ebony was partially finished for use as fingerboards and that Indian officials have endorsed such exports as legal. A spokesman for India's commerce ministry had no immediate comment.

After the 2009 raid, Mr. Juszkiewicz resigned from the board of the Rainforest Alliance, which seeks to preserve tropical forests. He said he didn't want to tar the nonprofit with bad publicity. A Rainforest Alliance spokeswoman said he wasn't pressured to step down, and the group continues to praise Gibson's efforts to promote responsible harvesting of wood

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In the case involving India, the governments position is that the wood was labelled as a veneer, while the thickness of the wood would not allow it to be classified as a veneer. Again the probablity of a corrupt person in India intentionally labelling the wood as a veneer is very possible.

Now I am not saying Gibson is guilty, but the governemnt does seem to have a case

deltabtry said:

My claim of the 4th and 6th being violated will have to wait until Gibson day in court, until then. We all must remember now.. especially you people on the left that in this country citizens are innocent until proven guilty, all of our so called evidence is currently heresy until it is admitted into court.
Gibson Guitar Wails on Federal Raid - WSJ.com
Here is a plank of Indian Rosewood. It's been cut the rough dimension in India, which is a requirement of their export rules. It was approved by the export officials in India for export, it was accepted by U.S. Customs for import. We have all the documentation of thesefacts for every lot of wood we use here in Bozeman and everywhere in the company," says O'Brien.
Snip:
Federal Officials Raid Gibson Guitar Factories In Tennessee, Bozeman Plant Could Be Next - News Story - NBCMontana NBC Montana
I took a few extra minutes to look up a site that is left friendly, it is a bit old but non the less there are 100's of sites and as recent as Sept. 9 2011 that make the same claim and thus far no one is refuting it. Non the less like Barbarian mentioned no one here has had their day in court yet, and this is where it will have to be played out. The difference between me and others and perhaps you is that Gibson currently in my eyes is innocent until proven guilty. If in fact there was intentional smuggling and violations of the law and proven so, then I am with you. Now if it goes the other way I hope we all seek some kind of justice for the abuse Gibson and been put through, unlike some here I will not engage in labeling, insults and bating..been there and done that and I've had enough..too old for that sh!t..

Click to expand...

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Lord Tammerlain said:

From the WSJ article. Reading the bolded areas to me sort of indicates at the very least Gibson knew of the possibility of being able to import unfinished wood through the use of corrupt exporters. If Gibson did intentionally work with corrupt exporters is something that is yet to be proven of course. But it certainly gives the government case some merit does it not


In the case involving India, the governments position is that the wood was labelled as a veneer, while the thickness of the wood would not allow it to be classified as a veneer. Again the probablity of a corrupt person in India intentionally labelling the wood as a veneer is very possible.

Now I am not saying Gibson is guilty, but the governemnt does seem to have a case

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And nobody cares that Gibson's CRIME is that they were the VICTIMS OF FRAUD, but are criminals because they sold products that they purchased under fraudulant pretenses... that's making the giant assumption that these charges aren't as trumped up as they seem to be given that no charges have been filed as of yet (to my knowledge).

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

BmanMcfly said:

And nobody cares that Gibson's CRIME is that they were the VICTIMS OF FRAUD, but are criminals because they sold products that they purchased under fraudulant pretenses... that's making the giant assumption that these charges aren't as trumped up as they seem to be given that no charges have been filed as of yet (to my knowledge).

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Oh I agree fully Gibsons was the victims of fraud. To lllustrate my believe in that I wil provide a personal story

One day somebody offered to sell me car speakers from the back of a van for about 50% of retail value, brand new in the box. Why I jumped at the chance with such a good deal. Imagine my suprise when I get busted by the police for the possesion of stolen goods ( the speakers). I mean how could I have realized that someone selling speakers from the back of a van would be selling stolen goods. I mean no one would ever ever think that they were stolen, despite my knowledge that car speakers are often stolen and sometimes sold by people for deep discounts from the back of peoples vehicles. What is more suprising is that those speakers were not legal for sale in my area.

Why I was definately the victim of fraud in that case, and the police should have realized that I was a law abiding citizen and would never knowingly buy stolen goods that were essential for my business operation. I am sure Gibson had the same feelings. I mean the fact that they knew that the wood could be obtained through the black market doesnt mean they actually sought such dealers. I am sure they believed fullly that the wood they couldnt buy before was somehow all of a sudden legal for sale through a particular exporter

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

I think there will be no charges filed for obvious reasons, I'll end my posts on this thread with that. I really can't go any further until or if and when Gibson has it day in court, although not likely. We will just have to wait and see.

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Lord Tammerlain said:

Oh I agree fully Gibsons was the victims of fraud. To lllustrate my believe in that I wil provide a personal story

One day somebody offered to sell me car speakers from the back of a van for about 50% of retail value, brand new in the box. Why I jumped at the chance with such a good deal. Imagine my suprise when I get busted by the police for the possesion of stolen goods ( the speakers). I mean how could I have realized that someone selling speakers from the back of a van would be selling stolen goods. I mean no one would ever ever think that they were stolen, despite my knowledge that car speakers are often stolen and sometimes sold by people for deep discounts from the back of peoples vehicles. What is more suprising is that those speakers were not legal for sale in my area.

Why I was definately the victim of fraud in that case, and the police should have realized that I was a law abiding citizen and would never knowingly buy stolen goods that were essential for my business operation. I am sure Gibson had the same feelings. I mean the fact that they knew that the wood could be obtained through the black market doesnt mean they actually sought such dealers. I am sure they believed fullly that the wood they couldnt buy before was somehow all of a sudden legal for sale through a particular exporter

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Now, a couple minor corrections to make your personal story more relevant :

- Instead of a "back of the truck special", you bought the speakers from the store.
- Just the regular price
- supplied you with the documentation (receipts)
- and the speakers can be resold only when they are valid with documentation (receipts), which you possessed

AND STILL you get charged for selling the contraband. That's a safe bet why they have yet to be formally charged.

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

BmanMcfly said:

Now, a couple minor corrections to make your personal story more relevant :

- Instead of a "back of the truck special", you bought the speakers from the store.
- Just the regular price
- supplied you with the documentation (receipts)
- and the speakers can be resold only when they are valid with documentation (receipts), which you possessed

AND STILL you get charged for selling the contraband. That's a safe bet why they have yet to be formally charged.

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And the difference between your story and my story is what the government will be required to proof. Either way illegally goods are generally confiscated from the current owners despite their purchase in good faith or in bad faith

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Lord Tammerlain said:

And the difference between your story and my story is what the government will be required to proof. Either way illegally goods are generally confiscated from the current owners despite their purchase in good faith or in bad faith

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Now, having the goods in question confiscated, sure, that's one thing. If he's got the documentation then he should not be charged because he bought, in good faith, materials labeled as legitimate. Now, if they ARE going to charge him with something, what are they waiting for?? This is something that's gone on against Gibson for years.

Also, as a secondary point, this could have been handled without an SWAT style raid... it's not like they were hiding their business, it's not like they are crack dealers with a track record for violence. The situation could have been handled with 2 officers walking in and talking to the manager, nevermind with guns drawn.

Also, this is just another notch in the trend of governments anti-entrepreneurship agenda. Stopping lemonade stands without business licenses (a 250$ license on a business that might produce 100$ in a week), raiding the amish, raiding organic food and raw dairy producers, arresting gold sellers as "counterfeiting", and more.

There is no end to this debate, but my bottom line is that this law sets bad precedences all over if this gets ruled on in court, that this seems to be a case of official oppression against Gibson, musicians will no longer be willing to travel with their instruments because not having the paper work on the source of the wood might mean you are holding contraband that must be confiscated. Now, this company already has a pending case against them and you seriously think they are even going to think of risking buying illegal products???

BUT, EVEN IF they are found guilty in this case, this crime is of being a victim. That's also not a good standard to adopt, at least IMO.

So, with that I'm going to also officially bow out of this one.

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

BmanMcfly said:

Now, having the goods in question confiscated, sure, that's one thing. If he's got the documentation then he should not be charged because he bought, in good faith, materials labeled as legitimate. Now, if they ARE going to charge him with something, what are they waiting for?? This is something that's gone on against Gibson for years.

Also, as a secondary point, this could have been handled without an SWAT style raid... it's not like they were hiding their business, it's not like they are crack dealers with a track record for violence. The situation could have been handled with 2 officers walking in and talking to the manager, nevermind with guns drawn.

Also, this is just another notch in the trend of governments anti-entrepreneurship agenda. Stopping lemonade stands without business licenses (a 250$ license on a business that might produce 100$ in a week), raiding the amish, raiding organic food and raw dairy producers, arresting gold sellers as "counterfeiting", and more.

There is no end to this debate, but my bottom line is that this law sets bad precedences all over if this gets ruled on in court, that this seems to be a case of official oppression against Gibson, musicians will no longer be willing to travel with their instruments because not having the paper work on the source of the wood might mean you are holding contraband that must be confiscated. Now, this company already has a pending case against them and you seriously think they are even going to think of risking buying illegal products???

BUT, EVEN IF they are found guilty in this case, this crime is of being a victim. That's also not a good standard to adopt, at least IMO.

So, with that I'm going to also officially bow out of this one.

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Have you read the Affidavit in support of the search warrants Bman? I posted a link to it here:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaking-news-mainstream-media/107792-us-agents-raid-gibson-guitar-over-ebony-34.html#post1059806641


Please read the Affidavit and let me know why you think the Law Enforcement Division of Fish & Wildlife did not have probable cause to conduct the search.

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

another recent article describing the gibson company's possible non compliance with the lacey act:
Guitar Antihero 4: Gibson’s crusade is off-key with U.S. workers | Grist

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

justabubba said:

another recent article describing the gibson company's possible non compliance with the lacey act:
Guitar Antihero 4: Gibson’s crusade is off-key with U.S. workers | Grist

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Thanks for the update on the issue JB. Very interesting, I had no idea the Lacey Act had so much support in industry.

As the CEO of Taylor guitars put it:

"It's very simple. We now investigate the sources of our wood, and we ensure to the best of our ability that the wood was taken legally. We fill out the paper work required and we present our business as an open book. The cost isn't so much for us. It's not an unbearable added burden, and we're happy to do the extra administrative work.

Taylor continued:

If I could take any user of wood, whether it be a guitar player or a purchaser of a dining room table, with me on a trip to the forest of 2011 in many, many parts of the world, and let them see with their own eyes the state of the forests and the people living in them, I'd stake my last dollar on the fact that they'd come home and preach with a loud voice how deforestation has got to be stopped. You have to see it to believe it, and if you haven't seen it with your own eyes, you can't argue against it. Period. I'm sorry, but that's the truth."

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Yes, Humans are but a virus to the Earth, and must be eradicated.

j-mac

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Catawba said:

Thanks for the update on the issue JB. Very interesting, I had no idea the Lacey Act had so much support in industry.

As the CEO of Taylor guitars put it:

"It's very simple. We now investigate the sources of our wood, and we ensure to the best of our ability that the wood was taken legally. We fill out the paper work required and we present our business as an open book. The cost isn't so much for us. It's not an unbearable added burden, and we're happy to do the extra administrative work.

Taylor continued:

If I could take any user of wood, whether it be a guitar player or a purchaser of a dining room table, with me on a trip to the forest of 2011 in many, many parts of the world, and let them see with their own eyes the state of the forests and the people living in them, I'd stake my last dollar on the fact that they'd come home and preach with a loud voice how deforestation has got to be stopped. You have to see it to believe it, and if you haven't seen it with your own eyes, you can't argue against it. Period. I'm sorry, but that's the truth."

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And Taylor makes some great guitars

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

sangha said:

And Taylor makes some great guitars

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built like a tank
prefer the older ones before the current expression system and new neck joint
projection is sometimes weak when compared to its competition (but is a non factor when amplified)
customer service is superb and playabilty is excellent for an acoustic
Taylor 314 might be the best value acoustic guitar available today

sangha said:

WHile the rest of us rely on the facts while laughing at those who whine about the presumption of innoncence before accusing Obama of being the mastermind of everything the govt does

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What facts would those be?

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

justabubba said:

built like a tank
prefer the older ones before the current expression system and new neck joint
projection is sometimes weak when compared to its competition (but is a non factor when amplified)
customer service is superb and playabilty is excellent for an acoustic
Taylor 314 might be the best value acoustic guitar available today

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I agree, particularly about the newer ones. Not as solid, my Taylor Jumbo has no problem projecting, though it's not the easiest to play due to it's size

American said:

What facts would those be?

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Don't know the facts?

Quelle surprise!!

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

apdst said:

We'll have to remember this the next time a Libbo asks, "whatta ya mean Obama killed jobs?". :lamo

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What does Obama have to do with this raid at all. On the subject of "killing" jobs what exactly about the conservatives plan makes you think they would have fared better. Their only argument seems to be that regulation is crippling to business.... Not any specific regulation but every regulation. I've always been kinda baffled by that. Technically speaking the Sherman and Clayton acts are government regulation. Should we do away with those? It surely would be good for business, from what i understand although trusts are bad for competition they're great for profits. Or is Obama killing jobs because he wants to raise the tax rates on the wealthiest two percent( I'm sorry the "job creators") to a level lower than that under Reagan, your golden boy. Except we tried lower tax rates for the last 11 years and they've done nothing. We also tried it under daddy bush, they called it voodoo economics back then now it's referred to as trickle-down as if I should be so lucky to get the scraps left over by the rich. It appears to me that if it's had no effect other than to widen the wealth gap perhaps we should try something new. Are you familiar with John Nash or John Maynard Keynes or shall we continue to pretend the only economic mind to ever present a convincing argument was Adam Smith( He wrote another book too, it's called the "Theory of Moral Sentiments", it's the book he considered his masterpiece, it's the one engraved on his tombstone, and it's one the conservatives probably wouldn't like very much or Ayn Rand for that matter)

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

7 months since the last post in this thread... 3+ years since the first raid, 1+ year since the follow up raid.

No charges filed.

Gibson



The over playing of the heavy handedness continues - and not just with Gibson. This WH talks about justice in a lot of different contexts.... where's Gibsons' justice?

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Nice reachback. Interesting that Gibson was not charged (so far).

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Use of raw materials like wood is grandfathered? wow, talk about old money.

alexxouellette said:

What does Obama have to do with this raid at all. On the subject of "killing" jobs what exactly about the conservatives plan makes you think they would have fared better. Their only argument seems to be that regulation is crippling to business....

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I think I'd prefer everyone be regulated, and have nobody grandfathered in.

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Matt Foley said:

Use of raw materials like wood is grandfathered? wow, talk about old money.




I think I'd prefer everyone be regulated, and have nobody grandfathered in.

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I believe, not 100% here, that if they did that, they would be confiscating guitars they made in the 70s. Right now, those people get a pass. I believe that is how it would work if everyone was regulated.

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Blue_State said:

I believe, not 100% here, that if they did that, they would be confiscating guitars they made in the 70s. Right now, those people get a pass. I believe that is how it would work if everyone was regulated.

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My impression was that Gibson gets special treatment on the use of certain raw materials that other companies do not have. Like if some law was passed to ban the use of coal in power plants, and company X is given a waiver (grandfathered in) to use coal.

Re: Is your guitar DOJ approved?

Matt Foley said:

My impression was that Gibson gets special treatment on the use of certain raw materials that other companies do not have. Like if some law was passed to ban the use of coal in power plants, and company X is given a waiver (grandfathered in) to use coal.

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All guitar companies work under the same grandfathered treatment, yet only Gibson has been raided.... twice.