Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

1Perry · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
AA doesn't give any special protection for discrimination. All it does is allow companies to hire a member of an under represented group over members of the over represented group if they are equally qualified. But, if a company goes beyond that and discriminates on the basis of race under the banner of AA they can be sued just like anybody else. In fact they are. Constantly. By tea baggers.

Not true. You do NOT have to pass regulation what would allow a company to hire an equally qualified minority. Do you have any idea how far out on the limb you are here? Really, we have to pass laws to allow companies to hire equally qualified minorities? What, was it illegal before?

False. AA says that you can opt to hire a member of an under represented group over a member of an over represented group, but only if they are equally qualified.

And if you decide not to?

Certainly a pattern of discrimination can be brought up, but you can't just show stats that they don't hire enough black people or whatever. That example is about the CEO flat out saying that they discriminate in their hiring. That certainly is admissible.

I can see that we are at the end of the discussion. When you can no longer discuss things honestly, it's time to end. The article states that they used past hiring practices.

Are you serious about this one? You are mad that there aren't white people in the congressional black caucus? Seriously? That has got to be one of the dumbest things to have a hissy fit about I've heard in a while...

It's wrong because they wil NOT allow whites in. It makes no difference if none join, they are NOT allowed to join. They have tried. They have been told "no" you are not black. You know that though but you have no where left to go but with a dishonest arguement.

I assume your issue is the tired old "what would people say if there was a congressional white caucus", right? Well, that argument is obviously silly. 87% of Congress is white. If there are issues of concern to white people, those are being dealt with all the time by the overwhelming majority of Congresspeople. But if there are issues that are only of concern to black people, those aren't necessarily on the radar for the Congress as a whole, so they need a special group to consider them. They aren't parallel at all.

Ah yes, a Congressional White COngress would be wrong. You are the reason "RACIST" has become a punchline. You make is so obvious that it's not about racism but about politics. That's really, I don't know, there really isn't a word strong enough for that position.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Henrin said:
Actually you are the one wrong. They are less likely to get the job because they are less likely to have the skills needed.

Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

1Perry said:
Not true. You do NOT have to pass regulation what would allow a company to hire an equally qualified minority. Do you have any idea how far out on the limb you are here? Really, we have to pass laws to allow companies to hire equally qualified minorities? What, was it illegal before?

Yeah, to hire on the basis of race, even an equally qualified person, could potentially be seen as discrimination, so that at least clarifies that it isn't. The main thing AA does is to require federal contractors and government departments to report their stats and give explanations it they're way out of whack.

1Perry said:
And if you decide not to?

Nothing happens. All AA forbids is discriminating against an under represented group.

1Perry said:
I can see that we are at the end of the discussion. When you can no longer discuss things honestly, it's time to end. The article states that they used past hiring practices.

Read the article. It quotes the CEO talking about their hiring practices. Nothing about statistical evidence being used in court in there unless I missed it.

1Perry said:
It's wrong because they wil NOT allow whites in. It makes no difference if none join, they are NOT allowed to join. They have tried. They have been told "no" you are not black. You know that though but you have no where left to go but with a dishonest arguement.

Ah yes, a Congressional White COngress would be wrong. You are the reason "RACIST" has become a punchline. You make is so obvious that it's not about racism but about politics. That's really, I don't know, there really isn't a word strong enough for that position.

I think I clearly explained why it is different and you don't seem to have a response. If you come up with one, I'm happy to debate it.

1Perry · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
Yeah, to hire on the basis of race, even an equally qualified person, could potentially be seen as discrimination, so that at least clarifies that it isn't. The main thing AA does is to require federal contractors and government departments to report their stats and give explanations it they're way out of whack.

Bull ****

Nothing happens. All AA forbids is discriminating against an under represented group.

Bull ****. What has happened is when a someone has an absolutely valid reason to exclude certain people they are forced to lower their standards to accept those they rightfully excluded before.

Read the article. It quotes the CEO talking about their hiring practices. Nothing about statistical evidence being used in court in there unless I missed it.

They had been accused of "engaging in recruiting and hiring practices that exclude minorities and adopting a virtually all-white marketing campaign."

Not that you actually care.

I think I clearly explained why it is different and you don't seem to have a response. If you come up with one, I'm happy to debate it.

There is nothing to debate. You support institutionalized racism. Racist are pretty low on the tree of humanity.

Henrin · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?

Got me, I missed that.

Where is your data coming from anyway? What are the chances they have the exact same resume? I would guess damn near zero.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Henrin said:
Got me, I missed that.

Where is your data coming from anyway? What are the chances they have the exact same resume? I would guess damn near zero.

Click the link to see the whole study. It's an experiment that Northwestern University did. Then Princeton and Brown universities repeated the whole thing from scratch with different test subjects in a different city and they got the same results. They send nearly identical teams of white and black people in to apply for jobs with resumes that are essentially identical (like one says they worked at Pizza Hut for 2 years and the other says Dominos) and they swap the resumes back and forth to eliminate any possible skew.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

1Perry said:
Bull ****

Bull ****. What has happened is when a someone has an absolutely valid reason to exclude certain people they are forced to lower their standards to accept those they rightfully excluded before.

Just blurting out your assumptions is not debating. The scientific studies all show that it is actually whites, not blacks, who are being hired despite being less qualified. If you have any evidence countering that, by all means, lets see it. Otherwise you lose.

1Perry said:
They had been accused of "engaging in recruiting and hiring practices that exclude minorities and adopting a virtually all-white marketing campaign."

Not that you actually care.

Again, read your own article. It talks about where that accusation comes from- the CEO's statements. I don't see anything in there about hiring statistics being used in court. If I'm just missing it, by all means, quote the relevant section here. Otherwise, just be more careful about accurately describing what your sources say in the future.

haymarket · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

apdst said:
That school of thought isn't going to achieve anything, other than convincing most black people that they have no chance, the deck is stacked against and there's no point in trying, because they're screwed from the git-go.

You're doing more damage to the black community--and the country--than racism ever could.

So your solution is believe in the myth even if the myth has proven to be crap.

haymarket · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Henrin said:
Got me, I missed that.

Where is your data coming from anyway? What are the chances they have the exact same resume? I would guess damn near zero.

Its amazing how you can always find a fall back position based on your own personal belief system to deny reality.

How can you include the link to the study in your own reply and then pretend you have no idea where the data came from? I could understand this from a newbie who just came here after falling off the turnip truck but you have been around the block a few times.

RiverDad · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Henrin said:
Got me, I missed that.

Where is your data coming from anyway? What are the chances they have the exact same resume? I would guess damn near zero.

Be sure to note the debunking of that study (comment #259) here and additional information (comment #349 here.

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

haymarket said:
So your solution is believe in the myth even if the myth has proven to be crap.

What myth would you be referring to?

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. So I guess you have that backwards, eh?

Honestly, this is just a wild eyed white supremacist rant... Obviously none of those things are remotely true.

You're trying to blame that totally on racism and that's where you're going wrong. The black community and the do-gooders share some responsibility, as well.

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

SE102 said:
Were going for that they dont get hired at the same rate as whites for the same qualifications. Not that they cant get ahead.

Well, the first step in getting ahead, is getting hired. If there aren't enough black getting hired, it's totally idiotic to blame it on white employers being racist.

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
Explain. How do you think that happens? Is this just the thing where right wingers claim that by trying to solve a problem you draw attention to it and hence make it more real? That's just a silly right wing blanket excuse for not doing anything about anything, not a real argument. Obviously black people, like everybody else, are fully aware of racial discrimination. How could they not be? They encounter it personally...

That's exactly what you're doing.

How about lets hold off on that discussion until a black person has the same odds of getting an interview as a white person with the exact same qualifications. Until then it is objectively broken, right?

That sentence proves my point.

haymarket · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

RiverDad said:
Be sure to note the debunking of that study (comment #259) here and additional information (comment #349 here.

the debunking of the study comes from your post!?!?!?!?!? I read it and I fail to see how your comments negate that study.

sure... whatever.

haymarket · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

apdst said:
What myth would you be referring to?

the myth of equal opportunity

Henrin · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

RiverDad said:
Be sure to note the debunking of that study (comment #259) here and additional information (comment #349 here.

Noted. I noticed he didn't do much with your comments on it either. Oh well..

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

apdst said:
You're trying to blame that totally on racism and that's where you're going wrong. The black community and the do-gooders share some responsibility, as well.

It can't be anything other than racism. That is all that differs between the applicants- their race. Read the study. It's insane how far they went to ensure that nothing else differed. They all have IQs, education levels and incomes in real life that are in the same bracket. They all scored in the same range in terms of grammar usage and they eliminated any that had a notable accent. They are all roughly the same height. They had panels of people rate them for attractiveness and paired up ones that matched. They had them dress the same and had them say the same exact things when they dropped off the resumes. They even tested for things like how many times a minute the person makes eye contact and whatnot to make sure that matches. There really is nothing, except the color of their skin, that differs. So, discrimination on the basis of skin color is racism by definition. There isn't any blaming required.

apdst said:
That's exactly what you're doing.

That sentence proves my point.

So how do you propose we tackle the issue of racism as a society?

RiverDad · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
They all scored in the same range in terms of grammar usage and they eliminated any that had a notable accent. They are all roughly the same height. They had panels of people rate them for attractiveness and paired up ones that matched. They had them dress the same and had them say the same exact things when they dropped off the resumes. They even tested for things like how many times a minute the person makes eye contact and whatnot to make sure that matches. There really is nothing, except the color of their skin, that differs. So, discrimination on the basis of skin color is racism by definition. There isn't any blaming required.

This really speaks to the experiment design. Controlling for a lot of variables doesn't make the experiment that much more accurate when the variables that are controlled only play a minor part in the process under study. Making eye contract and such other minute behaviors are not the crucial factors that determine how an employer evaluates LOW SKILLED LABOR. Employers want HARD WORKING, RELIABLE and PLIABLE workers who do their jobs, do them well, and take direction easily. Eye contact when speaking to someone is very low on the list of what is needed from a MANUAL LABORER.

So how do you propose we tackle the issue of racism as a society?

1.) Quit calling everyone a racist. People don't like being blamed for something that they're not doing.
2.) Make sure the playing field is level and then leave it all alone.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

RiverDad said:
This really speaks to the experiment design. Controlling for a lot of variables doesn't make the experiment that much more accurate when the variables that are controlled only play a minor part in the process under study. Making eye contract and such other minute behaviors are not the crucial factors that determine how an employer evaluates LOW SKILLED LABOR. Employers want HARD WORKING, RELIABLE and PLIABLE workers who do their jobs, do them well, and take direction easily. Eye contact when speaking to someone is very low on the list of what is needed from a MANUAL LABORER.

I don't think you understand. That is the point. The only thing that differs is race, so, apparently, employers are making extreme assumptions about how hard working, reliable or pliable workers are based solely on their race. That's what racism is.

RiverDad said:
1.) Quit calling everyone a racist. People don't like being blamed for something that they're not doing.

LOL. Yeah, right. Pretend it doesn't exist and it will just disappear like magic?

RiverDad said:
2.) Make sure the playing field is level and then leave it all alone.

Ah ha! Here we go! So, tell me, how do you think we should level the playing field? So far you seem to have vehemently opposed any and all attempts to reduce the massive inequality of opportunity. Are you changing your tune? What measures do you support to accomplish this?

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

haymarket said:
the myth of equal opportunity

There's equal oppurtunity for anyone--regardless of race, or sex--with the gonads to go out and get it.

I did it and the Libbos on this forum constantly claim that I'm stupid, so I reckon it can't be that difficult.

apdst · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
It can't be anything other than racism. That is all that differs between the applicants- their race. Read the study. It's insane how far they went to ensure that nothing else differed. They all have IQs, education levels and incomes in real life that are in the same bracket. They all scored in the same range in terms of grammar usage and they eliminated any that had a notable accent. They are all roughly the same height. They had panels of people rate them for attractiveness and paired up ones that matched. They had them dress the same and had them say the same exact things when they dropped off the resumes. They even tested for things like how many times a minute the person makes eye contact and whatnot to make sure that matches. There really is nothing, except the color of their skin, that differs. So, discrimination on the basis of skin color is racism by definition. There isn't any blaming required.

You're in overdrive, proving my point.

So how do you propose we tackle the issue of racism as a society?

Over-come it. That's how. I didn't let it stop me from becoming successful in life.

Had I listened to the likes of you, I would have deemed it hopeless and wouldn't have even tried. Instead, I would have given up and waited for the Liberal do-gooders to come along with a handout for me.

ThePlayDrive · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

apdst said:
Sure it does, and not just against blacks. However, it's the responsibility of each individual to get ahead in spite of that discrimination. So far, the Leftists haven't done anything, other than to convince a large portion of the black community that they can't succeed, because they can't get passed the racism.

Most liberals point out that discrimination exists as a barrier to success. Then people like you interpret that as "convincing a large portion of the black community that they can't succeed". What you don't seem to understand is that the main liberal argument regarding discrimination is that exists as a barrier to success. The argument is NOT that it exists as an unconquerable barrier to success - which is what you seem to think with your constant assertions that "Leftists" are telling blacks that they can't succeed.

Now the reason many liberals consider it important to point out racial discrimination is not to "convince people they can't succeed" or anything like that. The reason is that we see it as a tangible problem that can be eliminated in part by the government through things like equal access to quality education.

teamosil · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

apdst said:
Over-come it. That's how. I didn't let it stop me from becoming successful in life.

First off, the idea that it is the victim's responsibility and that the people committing these crimes should just be allowed to continue as is is morally abhorrent. Do you apply the same philosophy to other types of crime? Should we not worry about trying to stop rape and just tell women to be more careful?

Second, success isn't binary. It isn't like you are either successful or not. It's a matter of degree. It could well be that you would have been more successful were there less racial discrimination.

Third, even if your success was completely unaffected by discrimination, obviously that isn't the case for everybody. Just because you overcame it, we shouldn't worry about those who were hit harder by it?

1Perry · Sep 3, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
Just blurting out your assumptions is not debating. The scientific studies all show that it is actually whites, not blacks, who are being hired despite being less qualified. If you have any evidence countering that, by all means, lets see it. Otherwise you lose.

I'm supposed to counter something you just made up?

Again, read your own article. It talks about where that accusation comes from- the CEO's statements. I don't see anything in there about hiring statistics being used in court. If I'm just missing it, by all means, quote the relevant section here. Otherwise, just be more careful about accurately describing what your sources say in the future.

It isn't a court transcript. I post an actual example. You? Nothing.