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Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Why do you refer to the Jim Crow laws and say it was discrimination against an entire race when the laws were only enacted in the southern states? Do you think every black in the country lived in the south?

Easy!! All that reality at once will cause their heads to explode.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

It might tell you something else...but it may not be something you want to admit. It MIGHT tell you that there is a reason for that discrimination and that reason MAY have something to do with the significant numbers (but still a minority) within that discriminated group that has created a negative hiring environment for other qualified individuals within the same racial group. Where a black employer is more likely to hire a white employee, it MIGHT not mean that employer is an institutionalized racist, but that in fact the employer might have negative experiences with other employees and be disinclined to hire another black applicant based on prior experiences.

That's pretty much the definition of racism. Attributing negative characteristics one perceives one person to have to other members of that race.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Even if a person works in an environment where they are not discriminated against- which of course there are many of- they still live in the world. It would be impossible to be oblivious to it. Frankly even when a white person pretends they seriously are unaware of racial discrimination I find that very, very, hard to believe, but a black person that is unaware of it? No way.



Yes. I've participated in somewhere around 100 hiring committees over the years. Out of those maybe 6 candidates have been black. Every single one of those times, at least one person on the committee said something along the lines of "I just don't think they'd fit into the corporate culture" or had "concerns about professionalism" or similar. I don't think I remember either of those "issues" being raised about a white applicant ever. I doubt the people reacting that way are conscious of how the applicant's race is affecting their perception of the applicant. Probably conscious racial discrimination is very rare in all types of jobs, but the scientific studies of the question have all found that it occurs nonetheless. Hiring is extraordinarily subjective. For example, height turns out to be a huge factor in hiring decisions, although obviously nobody consciously thinks "I want to hire this applicant over the others because he is taller". Same deal with race.

Talking about disbelief. Not a single white candidate was questioned? Not even by you?

Sounds like someone's not being exactly honest.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

That's pretty much the definition of racism. Attributing negative characteristics one perceives one person to have to other members of that race.

That purdy much makes Liberals the most racist mother****ers on the face of the Earth.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Talking about disbelief. Not a single white candidate was questioned? Not even by you?

Sounds like someone's not being exactly honest.

No, I'm not saying that no white applicants were questioned. I'm saying that there are particular types of criticism that people are far more likely to level against black applicants. Vague concerns about "fitting in", cultural concerns, vague worries about professionalism...

That purdy much makes Liberals the most racist mother****ers on the face of the Earth.

That's going to require some explanation.
 
Anytime you vote for someone because of their ethnicity, not because of their qualifications that make the best for the job, or when you consider their ethnicity to trump all other aspects, then it is racist. What would you call it if I said I was voting for Perry because he's white and Obama is black, and their other differences don't matter? Would you call that racist




Racism between Black and Hispanic. However much exists between Black and White, the gulf between Hispanic and Black is far worse. The Hispanics won't vote for Obama in a large block, both because of their dislike and distrust of Blacks, and because they are repelled by Obama's racism as well.

Racism that isn't well publicized

On that note, as I live in Mexico, I have never, and I mean never, talked to anybody here that was an Obama supporter, and I asked. Most told me he was not qualified for the job as he had never ran anything in his life. They saw right through him. Why didn't the citizens of the US?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

No, I'm not saying that no white applicants were questioned. I'm saying that there are particular types of criticism that people are far more likely to level against black applicants. Vague concerns about "fitting in", cultural concerns, vague worries about professionalism...

Probably had more to do with the applicants than the interveiwers.


That's going to require some explanation.

Your own words explain more than I ever could. After all, you don't believe I'm black, because I don't think the way that you think black people should.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

double posted that one
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Sadly, that just is not true. In fact, if a white person and a black person apply for exactly the same job with exactly the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get called back for an interview. As a whole the system is still overwhelmingly biased against black people and in favor of white people.

Discrimination in a Low-Wage Labor Market: A Field Experiment by Devah Pager, Bruce Western, Bart Bonikowski :: SSRN

I've now read this paper. The unaddressed issue that pervades the experiment is why the bias exists. There are a number of flaws in the experimental design but I'm not interested in dissecting them. The bias question is more interesting to me.

The researchers make note of previous studies. Here is one:


Hiring decisions are influenced by a complex range of factors, racial attitudes being only one. The stated preferences of employers, then, leave uncertain the degree to which negative attitudes about blacks translate into active forms of discrimination.

Indeed, other research focusing on wages rather than employment reports even less evidence of contemporary discrimination. Derek Neal and William Johnson (1996), for example, estimate wage differences between white, black, and Latino young men. They find that two-thirds of the black-white gap in wages in 1990-1991 can be explained by race differences in cognitive test scores measured 11 years earlier; test scores fully explain wage differences between whites and Latinos.


This factor was not controlled for in this experiment. We don't know how employers were perceiving the white, black and latino job applicants in terms of intelligence and ability to problem solve on the job. The research show that there is no wage discrimination between whites and latinos when IQ is controlled for and though this study shows that there is some variance in wages between blacks and whites of the same IQ, two other, large sample size multi-year studies showed that the wage variance disappeared between whites and blacks when IQ is controlled.

This sets up an interesting question. Is the employer market divided between those who discriminate at the point of hiring or does the discrimination continue even after hiring. This wage data clearly suggests that there is no wage discrimination when IQ is controlled for - that seems like a pretty non-discriminatory environment to me. Now how likely is it that every black and latino who took part in these large wage-IQ studies just managed to be working for employers who do not discriminate at the point of hiring? I think that such an outcome would be an astounding roll of the dice.

So we're still left with a world where employers don't discriminate against existing employees but there could exist some employers who do discriminate against applicants in the interview stage. Maybe, maybe not.


Second, low-wage labor markets today are characterized by increasing heterogeneity of the urban minority work force, with low-skill African American workers now more likely to compete with other minority groups—low-skill Latino workers, in particular. Interviews with employers in Los Angeles and Chicago suggest consistent preferences for Latinos over African Americans, with Latino workers viewed as more pliant, reliable, and hard-working (Waldinger & Lichter, 2003; Kirschenman & Neckerman, 1991). Given these racial preferences among employers, growing competition within the low-wage labor market may leave black men vulnerable to discrimination relative not only to whites, but increasingly from Latinos as well.​


And this is a huge gaping hole in the whole discrimination debate. Are employers acting rationally when they employ discrimination if they are acting on stereotypes which are accurate representations of group-level behavior. This paper doesn't have anything to say about whether employer perceptions on Latinos being more "pliant, reliable and hard-working" are accurate. All three attributes are desired by employers. There are costs that fall on an employer when he has to deal with an employee who is not performing to par. The surest way to avoid incurring such costs is to not hire employees who perform at sub-par levels. How can an employer determine what an employee will do in the future? He can't. He can guess though. It's quite likely that guesses are based on past experience and the observations of what is happening in other workplaces.

The problem this situation creates is that it imposes costs on the individual for factors that are not under the individual's control. It's quite likely that a Latino job applicant is going to be more reliable and more pliable and more hard working than an African American job applicant but this is not assured. On the other side of the coin are the interests of the employer - he cannot have perfect information. The more thorough the information he collects the more costly it becomes for him. How much duty does he owe to individual applicants to be fair and judge them on their own merits when the costs of wrong bets fall almost entirely on him?

If the stereotype is accurate, then can we, or should we, fault the employer for acting in his self-interest by observing the stereotype. If the stereotype is accurate and it imposes costs on black applicants, then how should we apportion blame between the employers and black culture and the behavior of the individual blacks who give basis to the stereotype?

What academic studies seek to do is create conditions where all factors are controlled so that a relationship between the factors that are the focus of the study can be examined. This study doesn't quite meet that threshold because it leaves hanging in the air the issue of how employers view white, Latino and black workers in terms of what they will do for the employer in terms of working hard, being reliable and not causing trouble at work.

So where does this leave us? Well, it doesn't deliver the Holy Grail that liberals think it does. It's kind of like looking at present wage disparity between whites and blacks and assuming that it is caused by discrimination when in fact it reflects differing levels of intelligence between the two groups. This study tells us that discrimination occurs, but not why. Is it rational discrimination which works to the employer's interests or is there non-rational discrimination taking place.

In terms of remedy, if there is rational discrimination taking place then I find it difficult to tell employers that they have to act in an irrational manner and discount signals which guide them in minimizing costs and disruptions in their workplace. The solution to this problem is to be found in the black community repairing its reputation by developing better work habits so that employers come to see blacks as being the equal of Latinos and whites when it comes to reliability, agreeableness and willingness to work hard.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

I doubt that as many white applicants apply for black or hispanic owned businesses. Trying to guesstimate this kind of thing based on individual experiences is like trying to figure out the distance to the moon by eyeballing it.

That said, I'm mostly just speculating based on studies in other areas that have found equal discrimination. For example, black cops discriminate against black suspects just as much as white cops do. I don't know of an employment discrimination study that addresses that question.



That would tell me that racism gets internalized. But everybody already knew that.

This is the problem with people that think of race first before anything else.

If I am looking for a job, why do I care who owns it? Are you saying white people won't work for a minority business owner from some deep seated racism in them?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

It might tell you something else...but it may not be something you want to admit. It MIGHT tell you that there is a reason for that discrimination and that reason MAY have something to do with the significant numbers (but still a minority) within that discriminated group that has created a negative hiring environment for other qualified individuals within the same racial group. Where a black employer is more likely to hire a white employee, it MIGHT not mean that employer is an institutionalized racist, but that in fact the employer might have negative experiences with other employees and be disinclined to hire another black applicant based on prior experiences.

I still think you are wrong though. I think you will find that a majority of minority owned businesses hire far more within their race. And thats not a BAD thing.

Heres another observation...I was in Chicago recently...damn near every store in downtown Chicago was manned by immigrant employees. Why do you suppose that is? (not laying a trap...I'll tell you my thoughts...it is because employer experience has shown that immigrants are willing to bust their ass, do a good job, because they value the job more than a typical American apllicant).

One more point about hiring whites as opposed to a minority.

Whites are not protected by any kind of legislation.

The business owner, especially in the low wage area, like the survey was, he would have to think about who can sue him and for what.

A minority can sue, even without a real case, if they get fired and say it was because of their race and it is up to the business owner to prove it wasn't.

That costs a lot of money.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Did you forget to study the history of the Republican Party?

Lincoln's Republican Party is NOT by any stretch of the imagination the Republican Party of today. Moreover, the Democratic Party and Republican Party of the 1960s are NOT at all the Dem and Rep Parties of today - as I've said several times, the constituencies of the parties switched during the civil rights movements with the racist southern Dems moving to the Republican Party. Every time you repeat this myth, you reveal your ignorance. Study your history!
Let's not forget that many on the right believe they should be able to discriminate at private businesses.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

So we're still left with a world where employers don't discriminate against existing employees but there could exist some employers who do discriminate against applicants in the interview stage. Maybe, maybe not.

Presumably racial prejudice holds more sway when you don't know the actual person.

What academic studies seek to do is create conditions where all factors are controlled so that a relationship between the factors that are the focus of the study can be examined. This study doesn't quite meet that threshold because it leaves hanging in the air the issue of how employers view white, Latino and black workers in terms of what they will do for the employer in terms of working hard, being reliable and not causing trouble at work.

You're totally missing the boat. What the study shows is exactly that- that employers seem to assume white applicants will be better employees than black or hispanic applicants. That is what racism is.

All this talk about "rational discrimination" and whatnot is just plain ridiculous. You're literally 70 years behind in the discussion and you've got some serious catching up to do. Deciding whether or not to hire somebody on the basis of the color of their skin is equivalent to noticing that disproportionately many fast cars are red and then concluding that you ought to paint your car red to make it faster. You're getting distracted by external variables. The color of somebody's skin, obviously, doesn't affect their abilities. It does tend to correlate to wealth and access to education and whatnot, and those things to tend to correlate to job performance, but fixating on the person's race rather than those far, far, more accurate predictors is ridiculous. Especially in a hiring situation where you have ready access to the actual data about their education and accomplishments... Obviously it is dead wrong, obviously it is self perpetuating, etc, but it's also just dumb and lazy. Anyways, like I said, you're many decades behind on this. You ought to try to catch up. Do some reading on it.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

One more point about hiring whites as opposed to a minority.

Whites are not protected by any kind of legislation.

The business owner, especially in the low wage area, like the survey was, he would have to think about who can sue him and for what.

A minority can sue, even without a real case, if they get fired and say it was because of their race and it is up to the business owner to prove it wasn't.

That costs a lot of money.

All the same exact laws that protect minorities from racial employment discrimination protect whites exactly the same... They can sue just the same. And the notion that it is up to the employer to prove that they didn't discrimination is completely false... You're just making things up.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Horse****. Robert Byrd was your missing link. Democrat racist Klan leader...democrat senator. This pretend story about...but really...it just all of a sudden switched over...is just that...a bull**** pretend story and it only works for people stupid enough to buy it and people invested in believing in it.
Byrd was a member of the KKK when he was young, people change. Prove he was a racist when he died.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Byrd was a member of the KKK when he was young, people change. Prove he was a racist when he died.

I guess that is why he keep saying racist things until he died.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

That's ****ing bull****!

The only thing that changed about the Democrat party is the tactics. The Democrats figured out that it's easier and cheaper to keep blacks on welfare than it is to keep them on the plantation and they get a bunch of votes out of it, to boot.

As far as the Republicans are concerned; we're still trying to abolish slavery.
So you think blacks are so stupid as to be led by Democrats. Thanks for that information.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

I guess that is why he keep saying racist things until he died.

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Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

So you think blacks are so stupid as to be led by Democrats. Thanks for that information.
It's funny to me how many conservatives/Republicans think blacks are too stupid to make their own decisions. They're being "led" - incapable of rational thought.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Why do you refer to the Jim Crow laws and say it was discrimination against an entire race when the laws were only enacted in the southern states? Do you think every black in the country lived in the south?
Actually, during much of the Jim Crow era, most blacks DID live in the south - about 90% at one point. But then BECAUSE of Jim Crow, blacks migrated to the North in two great movements: The Great Migration and The Second Great Migration.

So yes, Jim Crow affected the ancestors of most blacks in the country - it was only after they experienced such systematic discrimination did they spread throughout the country bringing the effects of such discrimination with them to their new cities.

Here's some starter information:
African American - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Great Migration (African American) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Second Great Migration (African American) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Did you forget to study the history of the Republican Party?

Lincoln's Republican Party is NOT by any stretch of the imagination the Republican Party of today.

The Republican Party was founded on the slogan "Free Men, Free Soil" - a devotion to individual liberties, a free market economy, and an emphasis on the small businessman. The biggest change I can think of offhand is the removal of the protective tariff, and the importation and then rejection of a Progressive element, starting in the early 20th Century and ending only within the last decade or two.

Moreover, the Democratic Party and Republican Party of the 1960s are NOT at all the Dem and Rep Parties of today

exactly. look at the people who were in the Democrat Party in the 60's. You're talking about people like the Kennedy's, the Clintons, so on and so forth. They were all quickly flushed out, and haven't held any power recently at all. LBJ is reviled by today's party; that's why they look such askance at his Great Society Program.

as I've said several times, the constituencies of the parties switched during the civil rights movements with the racist southern Dems moving to the Republican Party.

For example, the Robert Byrds'. And who was that Republican leader who got in trouble a couple of years back for calling Obama a "clean" black guy who "didn't speak negro unless he wanted to"?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Answer mine first. I double-dog-dare-ya!
So I guess I can assume that you don't actually respect "real world experience" like you say you do. You only respect your own experiences and willfully ignore the experiences of other people that don't fit into your worldview. Thanks for clarifying.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

The Republican Party was founded on the slogan "Free Men, Free Soil" - a devotion to individual liberties, a free market economy, and an emphasis on the small businessman. The biggest change I can think of offhand is the removal of the protective tariff, and the importation and then rejection of a Progressive element, starting in the early 20th Century and ending only within the last decade or two.
History of the United States Republican Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

exactly. look at the people who were in the Democrat Party in the 60's. You're talking about people like the Kennedy's, the Clintons, so on and so forth. They were all quickly flushed out, and haven't held any power recently at all. LBJ is reviled by today's party; that's why they look such askance at his Great Society Program.
I think you're confused. The Democratic and Republican Parties were transitioning in the 60s...that was my point. 1965 and 68 were when the great voter shifts happened.

For example, the Robert Byrds'.
Listing names does nothing to erase the history of both parties.
 
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Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Byrd was a member of the KKK when he was young, people change. Prove he was a racist when he died.

:lol:

"all the voters in the south were only racists when they were in the democrat party, people change. Prove that they didn't."


OR, how about this: Prove (as per our OP) that the Tea Party wants to bring back lynchings of black people.




OR, if you can't do that, then I would like to see you reference how you believe comments to that effect fit within the "new civility" framework that the President laid out in his (excellent) speech after the Representative Giffords shooting?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

from playdrive


Moreover, the Democratic Party and Republican Party of the 1960s are NOT at all the Dem and Rep Parties of today

the response from cpwill


exactly. look at the people who were in the Democrat Party in the 60's. You're talking about people like the Kennedy's, the Clintons, so on and so forth. They were all quickly flushed out, and haven't held any power recently at all. LBJ is reviled by today's party; that's why they look such askance at his Great Society Program.

Death will do that to you. But I work most days of the week with Democrats in positions of power and I have never ever heard anyone express anything approaching revulsion about LBJ or JFK or Clinton. That just plain incorrect and has no basis in fact. I think statements such as the one I printed here are made by far rightists who have a cartoon version of the Democratic Party in their heads and simply do not know of what they speak.
 
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