Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

teamosil · Sep 4, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

RiverDad said:
You "voting" to shift costs onto innocents so that you can advance your equal outcomes agenda is, frankly, immoral.

LOL. The guy arguing that racial employment discrimination is a good thing is talking about morality? I don't think so.

There are two possibilities. You can error on the side of more investigation which means some innocent companies will be out a few bucks, but more victims of discrimination will be able to get justice or you can error on the side of less investigation which means protecting companies, but hurting the victims of discrimination. You appear to be just arbitrarily saying that you favor the companies over the people. Why?

RiverDad said:
The freedom to discriminate is something that we all enjoy. Ask the woman who discriminates against male OB/GYNs if she like the freedom to choose her own physician. Taking away that freedom, or restricting it further, means that associations are FORCED onto people who don't want them. Why? To satisfy your ideological agenda of creating equal outcomes across society. This sounds like the reasoning behind "We need to destroy the village in order to save the village."

To satisfy my ideological agenda? You don't think that is an awfully cavalier way to talk about anti-discrimination enforcement? We're talking about people held in abject poverty by racist assholes for no reason other than malice. Kids who are pretty much screwed from the get go by these assholes. It isn't "my ideological agenda" that says that's wrong, it's just basic morality.

RiverDad said:
The system is working as it was designed to work. This is precisely what the originators of these laws set out to stop - "No Blacks Need Apply." Now you liberals are on a complete diversity destroying bombing run and intruding deeper and deeper into affairs that government has no business involving itself in. That's the creeping road to totalitarianism - throwing people into jail because they're exercising rights to free association.

LOL. So you don't actually want to prevent discrimination, you just want it not to be out in the open?

What are you talking about with totalitarianism? These are individuals suing corporations... Out of those two, the corporation would be the one that has the greater potential to be totalitarian, no?

MKULTRABOY · Sep 4, 2011

C'mon. we need more arguments defending the status quo of structural racism, relegating minorities to increased hurdles to experience the same social mobility that non-minorities do. Go on. Please.

RiverDad · Sep 4, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

SE102 said:
Yet the problem does not reside with any single company its endemic to society itself

We don't KNOW that. This paper only looked at what happened during a short window of time in the New York City low-skilled labor market. Even there it didn't find systemic discrimination, it found that SOME companies were suspected of discriminating.

When someone is in possession of evidence, then hand it over to the enforcers over at EEOC. Why submit every company in the nation to such oppressive oversight as would be needed to solve a minor problem detected in NYC?

round and round we go... whats next...?

Hey, do you think that I like that stuff that liberals do and shove down my throat? We can't always get what we want. You want some type of perfect system that meets your goals but to get that system you need to impose totalitarian mechanisms on society. Where there is evidence of overt discrimination, then that is actionable. If you suspect that covert discrimination is taking place, well there's nothing that you can do about it. You can't police people's motivations anymore than you can arrest someone for mental rape because they fantasized about having sex with someone else. A woman who doesn't want to see a male physician shouldn't be arrested for discriminating on the basis of gender. That's what free association is all about. It's a human right you know, or maybe you don't.

MKULTRABOY · Sep 4, 2011

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RiverDad said:
You want some type of perfect system that meets your goals but to get that system you need to impose totalitarian mechanisms on society.

Uh Oh, he realized were race traitors and totalitarians imposing that people hire blacks as equally as whites. Get the thorazine, this one KNOWS. Tell us more about your paranoia complex involving a totalitarian leftist state.

teamosil · Sep 4, 2011

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RiverDad said:
Even there it didn't find systemic discrimination, it found that SOME companies were suspected of discriminating.

What are you talking about? It found, objectively, that the white applicants were getting 2.4 times as many interviews with the same resumes. That isn't a suspicion or whatever. That means that almost half of the companies were in fact discriminating on the basis of race. Period.

RiverDad · Sep 4, 2011

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teamosil said:
There are two possibilities. You can error on the side of more investigation which means some innocent companies will be out a few bucks,

It's at moments like this that I wish I was a CEO and I'd decide to relocate the corporation to a more business friendly location, like Burma or North Korea to get away from leaders like you. I'm thankful that voices like yours are extremely marginalized.

You appear to be just arbitrarily saying that you favor the companies over the people. Why?

I'm sorry if my points are coming across as arbitrary, I thought that it was obvious that there was a principle guiding my thinking. Liberty. Your goal of engineering outcomes comes at too high a cost of trampling on human rights. The ends do not justify the means.

We're talking about people held in abject poverty by racist assholes for no reason other than malice.

No one is owed a living. If you want better job conditions then agitate for the deportation of 20 million illegal aliens and stop all immigration until such time as labor shortages develop. Look back at history and see how much the lives of African Americans improved during the immigration moratorium which coincided with The Great Migration and the 2nd Great Migration. Labor scarcity has a marvelous effect on wage levels and relaxed hiring standards. You want a real solution - there it is. Take it and run with it. There is the compromise that you seek. You don't have to harm any Americans. You benefit Americans. You don't have to impose totalitarian oversight policies on innocent Americans. What's not to like?

MKULTRABOY · Sep 4, 2011

We understand your mode of thinking. You see if the minorities want jobs, then they should agitate to oust the illegal minorities, then they will be 'good enough'

I thought that it was obvious that there was a principle guiding my thinking. Liberty. Your goal of engineering outcomes comes at too high a cost of trampling on human rights. The ends do not justify the means.

The ends being some non minority doesnt get a place where a minority person would if the system were fair. Boo.. frickin.. hoo.

You don't have to impose totalitarian oversight policies on innocent Americans. What's not to like?

Totalitarian by balls. It's not like you have to visit the gulag for a decade... I'm sorry correcting structural racism is such a burden for you to bear by the hand of the totalitarian state.

RiverDad · Sep 4, 2011

SE102 said:
Totalitarian by balls. It's not like you have to visit the gulag for a decade... I'm sorry correcting structural racism is such a burden for you to bear by the hand of the totalitarian state.

Did you miss the part where teamosil noted that he advocates that people who discriminate should be thrown into jail?

teamosil · Sep 4, 2011

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RiverDad said:
It's at moments like this that I wish I was a CEO and I'd decide to relocate the corporation to a more business friendly location, like Burma or North Korea to get away from leaders like you. I'm thankful that voices like yours are extremely marginalized.

Business friendly? Why is bigotry-friendly the same thing as business-friendly in your mind? Bigotry is bad for business. It's inefficient.

RiverDad said:
I'm sorry if my points are coming across as arbitrary, I thought that it was obvious that there was a principle guiding my thinking. Liberty. Your goal of engineering outcomes comes at too high a cost of trampling on human rights. The ends do not justify the means.

Human rights? Liberty? You just mean for the bigots right? The rights and liberty of the minorities you don't even consider, right?

RiverDad said:
No one is owed a living. If you want better job conditions

This isn't about better job conditions, it is about ending discrimination. And, yeah, everybody is owed a shot at the pie regardless of the color of their skin.

RiverDad said:
then agitate for the deportation of 20 million illegal aliens and stop all immigration until such time as labor shortages develop.

That's a whole other debate, but you're just as wrong on that one as you are on this one... I'm sure we've debated that to death elsewhere, but if not yet, I'm sure we will.

teamosil · Sep 4, 2011

RiverDad said:
Did you miss the part where teamosil noted that he advocates that people who discriminate should be thrown into jail?

Sure. They're attacking others without provocation and doing far more damage to their victims than a mugger or something. They're destroying people's entire economic futures just out of malice. We shouldn't hold them accountable for what they did? Should we continue to hold other types of criminals accountable? Why the special exception for the bigots?

MKULTRABOY · Sep 4, 2011

RiverDad said:
Did you miss the part where teamosil noted that he advocates that people who discriminate should be thrown into jail?

In certain conditions it could be warranted. Still doesnt compare to a gulag.

RiverDad · Sep 4, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
Bigotry is bad for business. It's inefficient.

We're back to Becker. If it's inefficient then let the companies hang themselves and let their competitors eat their lunch. No need for your jackbooted tactics. Let the process of competition do the punishing.

The rights and liberty of the minorities you don't even consider, right?

They don't need the likes of you as a protector. This country elected a black man to the presidency and people were orgasming about that. The system is fair. No one is being oppressed. Go fight some other imaginary battle.

That's a whole other debate, but you're just as wrong on that one as you are on this one... I'm sure we've debated that to death elsewhere, but if not yet, I'm sure we will.

Yeah, you want your cake and you want to eat it too. You'd rather punish American business owners than illegal aliens. You say that your concern is that there are too many blacks who are unemployed. I'm telling you that there are 20 million illegals working and displacing these unemployed blacks from the labor market. Make your choice. Well, I see you have - totalitarianist intrusion into the minutia of American business, the jailing of people who you think might have discriminatory feelings in their heart, and the eradication of freedom of association. Those are far more preferred than deporting 20 million uninvited invaders who are actively harming the interests of unemployed American citizens.

teamosil · Sep 4, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

RiverDad said:
We're back to Becker. If it's inefficient then let the companies hang themselves and let their competitors eat their lunch. No need for your jackbooted tactics. Let the process of competition do the punishing.

Yeah, if life were magic. In reality companies take about 1/3 of their revenue as profit. They make bad decisions all the time and nobody swallows them up. After all, the Jim Crow laws thrived in the South for many decades and those businesses didn't go out of business. Economics are a lot more hap hazard than you seem to assume.

RiverDad said:
They don't need the likes of you as a protector. This country elected a black man to the presidency and people were orgasming about that. The system is fair. No one is being oppressed. Go fight some other imaginary battle.

LOL. So you think that somehow the minute Obama took the white house all the discrimination in the country just magically disappeared? How exactly did you think that occurred? Did he go house to house or did he use a mind control ray? Uh, nah, I don't think so.

RiverDad said:
Yeah, you want your cake and you want to eat it too. You'd rather punish American business owners than illegal aliens. You say that your concern is that there are too many blacks who are unemployed. I'm telling you that there are 20 million illegals working and displacing these unemployed blacks from the labor market. Make your choice. Well, I see you have - totalitarianist intrusion into the minutia of American business, the jailing of people who you think might have discriminatory feelings in their heart, and the eradication of freedom of association. Those are far more preferred than deporting 20 million uninvited invaders who are actively harming the interests of unemployed American citizens.

Getting rid of undocumented immigrants would collapse the economy and radically increase unemployment, so no, that is not a solution to racism... You're just trying to change topics because you're so obviously losing this one and you know immigration is a hot button topic so you think it will be a tempting target. Lets just stick to the topic at hand.

RiverDad · Sep 4, 2011

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teamosil said:
Yeah, if life were magic. In reality companies take about 1/3 of their revenue as profit.

Where do you get this stuff, Karl Marx Correspondence School? You're daft if you think that companies are pocketing 1/3 of revenue as profit.

LOL. So you think that somehow the minute Obama took the white house all the discrimination in the country just magically disappeared?

His election speaks to the nation's attitudes towards race. If the system was permeated with dirty stinking racists who hate black people and want to have nothing to do with them, then it would have been impossible for Obama to have gotten elected. That's the problem with the liberal view of the world that you operate on - you see disparity in outcome and you believe that it is the result of white people hating on black people. A lot of whites voted for Obama precisely to send the message that this is not what is going on.

Getting rid of undocumented immigrants would collapse the economy and radically increase unemployment, so no

Where do you get this stuff, Karl Marx Correspondence School? Right now we have one of the lowest workforce participation ratios in our nation's history. There are millions of people unemployed and looking for work.

MKULTRABOY · Sep 4, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

If the system was permeated with dirty stinking racists who hate black people and want to have nothing to do with them, then it would have been impossible for Obama to have gotten elected.

Actually itd only take a fraction of homogenized white voters to give him the election.

cpwill · Sep 4, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

teamosil said:
Yeah, if life were magic. In reality companies take about 1/3 of their revenue as profit. They make bad decisions all the time and nobody swallows them up. After all, the Jim Crow laws thrived in the South for many decades and those businesses didn't go out of business

because government forced them all into the same flawed standard. in today's market, unless the business were very niche (say, mass producing klu klux klan hoodies), any business that attempted to put in a racist policy would be quickly destroyed.

LOL. So you think that somehow the minute Obama took the white house all the discrimination in the country just magically disappeared?

nope - but one of the side benefits of his election was to disprove the theory that racism is somehow still some kind of dominant social meme.

Getting rid of undocumented immigrants would collapse the economy and radically increase unemployment

really? Oklahoma did an excellent job of decreasing it's illegal population a couple of years back by going after the employers. How is Oklahoma doing in this recession. major unemployment?

huh. isn't that odd. 5.5%

ThePlayDrive · Sep 4, 2011

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cpwill said:
no, he's pointing out that the employers are wisely allocating their limited time and resources to focusing on the candidates they feel are most likely to become the best workers. that is what smart employers (who do not wish to be destroyed by their competition) do - allocate resources effectively.

oh so they are responsible for their discrimination. You just call discrimination "wisely allocating their limited time and resources".

I have to give it to the conservatives in this thread - you have all become VERY good at disguising your support of discrimination without actually saying the word discrimination.

Why can you just say "it's efficient to discriminate against blacks because I think they're less likely to perform well since I hold racial stereotypes" rather than "employers wisely allocate their time and resources to focus on candidate that they feel are most like to become the best workers (aka not black people)"? Just be honest about it.

j-mac · Sep 4, 2011

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teamosil said:
In the US today if a white person and a black person both apply for the same job with the exact same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview.

A good hard look at where you get your numbers to start would be refreshing. However, lets examine this on its face. Do you think that the percentage in population has any causality at all?

In today's make up of race as a percentage of population blacks make up around 13% of the total population by race. So I'd say that your 2.4% number there is proof that affirmative action is working.

You show me where in todays market place people don't have equal opportunity, and I'll stand with you, however, if what you want to do is equal the playing field through some sense of guilt for being born white, then I have no time for arguing handouts.

Think back through your life. Take out 3 of every 5 jobs you've gotten. Where would you be? On welfare? A criminal? Would your family still be intact? What medical or dental problems have you or your family had that you wouldn't have been able to afford to treat? Would you have an elderly parent living with you because you/they couldn't afford a retirement home? Where would you live? Where you do today or a ghetto? What kind of school would your kids have access to there? How much harder would it be to get your next job with those huge gaps in your resume? Etc. Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as beset.

I can't truly, or honestly put myself in any of those positions, and say with any certainty. People are different, some rise to the challenge, some don't. I will tell you this though, no one gave me anything in my life, what I have accomplished, I had to earn.

No, I don't see it as all or nothing. Somebody could oppose racism, but just a little bit, or they could oppose it vigorously. Somebody could support it in one situation and oppose it in others, etc. The point I am trying to make is that ignoring it is not opposing it.

And continually screaming racism where none exists is more damaging to those you say you want to help then if you just let people live, and focused on the real cases.

When a politician gets elected they can't just take on responsibility for one tiny area of policy making, they make policy, or fail to make policy, about everything, so you can't just ignore their positions on all issues but one.

See this is where I believe that libs have it fundamentally wrong. When you elect a representative, they are supposed to go to DC and reflect the peoples voice that elected them. Not say to themselves "whew! I am in now baby! Time to do what I want.."

I think the fundamental gap is that the right seems to see racism as something that should be left to die on its own and the left sees it as something that needs to be extinguished. I don't see any evidence of it dying off on its own, so I don't see how that is a viable approach.

And I think that the left doesn't want to see racism die off because that is how they continue to get elected, especially in minority, or poor districts. IOW, the left keeps blacks in their respective positions in life for a vote.

j-mac

j-mac · Sep 4, 2011

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theplaydrive said:
oh so they are responsible for their discrimination. You just call discrimination "wisely allocating their limited time and resources".

I have to give it to the conservatives in this thread - you have all become VERY good at disguising your support of discrimination without actually saying the word discrimination.

Why can you just say "it's efficient to discriminate against blacks because I think they're less likely to perform well since I hold racial stereotypes" rather than "employers wisely allocate their time and resources to focus on candidate that they feel are most like to become the best workers (aka not black people)"? Just be honest about it.

Do you have proof of a specific business that purposely discriminates against blacks?

j-mac

teamosil · Sep 4, 2011

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RiverDad said:
Where do you get this stuff, Karl Marx Correspondence School? You're daft if you think that companies are pocketing 1/3 of revenue as profit.

Uh, you conceded that your own source said that on the other thread...

RiverDad said:
His election speaks to the nation's attitudes towards race. If the system was permeated with dirty stinking racists who hate black people and want to have nothing to do with them, then it would have been impossible for Obama to have gotten elected.

Uh, you realize he only got 52% of the vote, right? So for all that tells us it could be that anywhere up to 48% of the county would never vote for a black person no matter what. I'm sure that isn't true, but the argument that there is no racism because 52% voted for Obama obviously makes no sense. On top of that somebody could well vote for a black person for president, but still make negative assumptions about a person in a job interview based on their race. They knew a hell of a lot more about Obama by the time they voted than just what they would find on his resume.

teamosil · Sep 4, 2011

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cpwill said:
because government forced them all into the same flawed standard.

That's just the standard blanket explanation for everything the right uses for everything- "if something is wrong, it must be the government's fault", that is not a real argument.

cpwill said:
in today's market, unless the business were very niche (say, mass producing klu klux klan hoodies), any business that attempted to put in a racist policy would be quickly destroyed.

Again, if a white person and a black person apply for the same job with the same resume, the white person is 2.4 times more likely to get an interview. That means nearly half of businesses are discriminating on the basis of race, yet they haven't been destroyed. So, I guess your analysis must be missing something, right?

ThePlayDrive · Sep 4, 2011

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j-mac said:
Do you have proof of a specific business that purposely discriminates against blacks?

j-mac

Businesses lose lawsuits all the time for racial discrimination. I posted a link earlier of Abercrombie and Fitch who had to $50 million for racial discrimination. This is the second time I've been asked to prove that the sky is blue. That said, you're question has no bearing on what I said which is that the conservatives in this thread like use phrases like "wisely allocate resources" as euphemisms for "discriminate against blacks since we think they don't work as hard as whites".

teamosil · Sep 4, 2011

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

j-mac said:
A good hard look at where you get your numbers to start would be refreshing. However, lets examine this on its face. Do you think that the percentage in population has any causality at all?

In today's make up of race as a percentage of population blacks make up around 13% of the total population by race. So I'd say that your 2.4% number there is proof that affirmative action is working.

You show me where in todays market place people don't have equal opportunity, and I'll stand with you, however, if what you want to do is equal the playing field through some sense of guilt for being born white, then I have no time for arguing handouts.

The numbers come from a massive experiment conducted by Northwestern University and then repeated by Princeton and Brown Universities with oversight from Harvard and the National Science Foundation. So, yeah, it holds up to a good hard look extremely well. It's a very clever design and very well executed. Twice, with the same results both times. Here is the study.

No, the percentages of the population are not related. It isn't that overall whites get 2.4 times more interviews. They send in white people and black people with the same resume and each individual white person gets 2.4 times more interviews than each individual black person over a sample of about 300 employers. Like at the end of the day, after applying for 300 entry level jobs the white applicants have an average of 102 interviews and the black applicants have an average of 42 interviews.

j-mac said:
I can't truly, or honestly put myself in any of those positions, and say with any certainty. People are different, some rise to the challenge, some don't. I will tell you this though, no one gave me anything in my life, what I have accomplished, I had to earn.

They gave you one thing- a fair shake. When you were the best candidate for a job, you got it. That's all black people are asking for.

j-mac said:
See this is where I believe that libs have it fundamentally wrong. When you elect a representative, they are supposed to go to DC and reflect the peoples voice that elected them. Not say to themselves "whew! I am in now baby! Time to do what I want.."

I am not saying "hey, when politicians get elected they should do lots of stuff they didn't campaign on", I am saying that they can't help it. No matter what they campaign on votes are going to come up in the Congress on all issues and they will have to vote one way or the other. We can't just ignore how they will vote on every issue except taxes because 99% of the stuff they'll vote on won't be taxes.

j-mac said:
And I think that the left doesn't want to see racism die off because that is how they continue to get elected, especially in minority, or poor districts. IOW, the left keeps blacks in their respective positions in life for a vote.

Honestly, man to man, on my honor, I swear to you that I absolutely want to see racism die off. In fact, if I had to choose between one scenario where racism was completely erased, but Republicans won every election in the nation for 40 years and another scenario where racism continued as is, but Democrats won every election in the nation for 40 years, truthfully I would opt for the first scenario over the later. In my view it is hands down the most serious cause of very real human suffering in this country.

And, I also honestly believe that the issue hurts Democrats much more than it helps them. The majority of voters in the US are white. They don't want to hear about racism. I think we'd do better politically if we just followed the Republican model of telling everybody it doesn't exist anymore. But then if we can't work to fight what I view as the biggest problem in the country then what would be the point in winning elections?

I hear this claim all the time that the left is using racism for political ends, and I honestly can tell you for a certainty that it isn't true. I know tons of Democrats, I've spent loads of times on political forums, I've worked for federal level elected representatives and I've worked on a campaign. I swear to you that in none of those situations have I ever gotten even a whiff of a Democrat being happy when a racism issue comes up. From our perspective it is more like we try to ignore it because we're as sick of it as anybody else, but when we feel that our values compel us to say something about it, we do even though it costs us. Seriously, that's how it seems from a perspective inside the left.

1Perry · Sep 4, 2011

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cpwill said:
because government forced them all into the same flawed standard. in today's market, unless the business were very niche (say, mass producing klu klux klan hoodies), any business that attempted to put in a racist policy would be quickly destroyed.

The stupid uproar over the hair products ad or whatever it was with the guy getting rid of his afro shows that. It wasn't even in any way racist but yet, people yelled it and it was pulled.

1Perry · Sep 4, 2011

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theplaydrive said:
Businesses lose lawsuits all the time for racial discrimination. I posted a link earlier of Abercrombie and Fitch who had to $50 million for racial discrimination. This is the second time I've been asked to prove that the sky is blue. That said, you're question has no bearing on what I said which is that the conservatives in this thread like use phrases like "wisely allocate resources" as euphemisms for "discriminate against blacks since we think they don't work as hard as whites".

Yep, they were shown to have had a long standing policy of not hiring minorities and were fined $40 million.