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Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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Yes.

Each state differs with respect to the specific instances in which the Castle Doctrine can be invoked, and what degree of retreat or non-deadly resistance (if any) is required before deadly force can be used.

In general, (one) or a variety of conditions must be met before a person can legally use the Castle Doctrine:

As of the 28th of May, 2010, 31 States have some form of Castle Doctrine and/or Stand Your Ground law. Alabama,[9] Alaska, Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island,[10] South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah,[11] West Virginia and Wyoming have adopted Castle Doctrine statutes, and other states (Montana, Nebraska,[12] New Hampshire, and Washington) are currently considering "Stand Your Ground" laws of their own.[

These state use differing forms of Castle Law:

An intruder must be making (or have made) an attempt to unlawfully and/or forcibly enter an occupied residence, business or vehicle.
The intruder must be acting illegally—e.g. the Castle Doctrine does not give the right to attack officers of the law acting in the course of their legal duties
The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon an occupant of the home
The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to commit some other felony, such as arson or burglary
The occupant(s) of the home must not have provoked or instigated an intrusion, or provoked or instigated an intruder to threaten or use deadly force
The occupant(s) of the home may be required to attempt to exit the house or otherwise retreat (this is called the "Duty to retreat" and most self-defense statutes referred to as examples of "Castle Doctrine" expressly state that the homeowner has no such duty)
per Wikipedia

Read about individual states here
It seems that it's more than just protecting your property, the home owner has to also believe they could be harmed by the intrusion. Also, those are for protecting your home. Not sure how that would apply to one's business during off hours when the business owner remains on property with the hopes of ambushing an intruder.
 
Neither is yours. Unfortunately for you, my opinion is backed up by facts, and supported by the law. Yours isn't. Go ahead. Prove me wrong.

the property owners are not in jail. proof that my opinion, in this case, is more accurate than yours. go matlock
 
the property owners are not in jail. proof that my opinion, in this case, is more accurate than yours. go matlock

And it's only your OPINION that that constitutes proof of anything.
 
Setting aside, for the moment, the fact that you're making some poor assumptions here, you're also not applying Colorado law. Why don't you look that up (or find it in this thread) and try again? I'll be going away for several hours, so you've got plenty of time to do some actual research to form your argument.

Frankly, I am not interested in Colorado law. This is much less a legal debate than it is a philosophical one. Try to remember that.

If Colorado law is in conflict with my opinion on the matter, then in my opinion, Colorado law is in error and needs to be amended.
 
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Frankly, I am not interested in Colorado law. This is much less a legal debate than it is a philosophical one. Try to remember that.

Bull****. A page ago you were attempting to make a legal argument. You failed, and are now claiming after the fact that you're having a philosophical debate rather than talking about murder, which is what I've been doing for the last 100 pages or so. So when you say "try to remember that" I'm pretty much just going to laugh at you.

If Colorado law is in conflict with my opinion on the matter, then in my opinion, Colorado law is in error and needs to be amended.

Good luck with that. They're still murderers according to Colorado law.
 
Good luck with that. They're still murderers according to my opinion.

edited for accuracy. they were charged and there was not enough evidence to convince the grand jury to send the case to trial. under the law they are not guilty of murder. sorry mattlock, you lose.
 
edited for accuracy. they were charged and there was not enough evidence to convince the grand jury to send the case to trial.

How do you know that? Why are you so certain the grand jury did its job properly? Especially given that its conclusions are totally inconsistent with those of the civil jury?

under the law they are not guilty of murder. sorry mattlock, you lose.

According to your opinion. See? We could go back and forth like this all day, and not actually have a debate at all., Or you could grow some balls and actually tell me why, according to the facts that we have and the law as we know it, you think the grand jury reached the decision it reached.

You're rehashing the same dumbass point I've addressed dozens of times in this thread. You should either address my comments directly, or give up. This is getting very, very pathetic.
 
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If the guy was already down from being shot, and on his back presumably unconscious, then why shoot another, what, 5 times into his back?

How about 7 more times?

How about 10 more times?

How about 15 more times?

Do you see that if you justify the man being shot 5 more times whil unconscious, you justify any number of shots being pounded into him?

It is good to defend oneself. It is not good to murder someone in a barbarian fashion. This is not a graphic movie. This is not Grand Theft Auto. You don't unload multiple shots into a presumably wounded and unconscious person on his belly.
 
How do you know that? Why are you so certain the grand jury did its job properly? Especially given that its conclusions are totally inconsistent with those of the civil jury?



According to your opinion. See? We could go back and forth like this all day, and not actually have a debate at all., Or you could grow some balls and actually tell me why, according to the facts that we have and the law as we know it, you think the grand jury reached the decision it reached.

doesn't matter why the grand jury reached the decision it reached...only what that decision was... and SURPRISE SURPRISE it was not that these guys were guilty of murder. sorry that you can't seem to accept that, perry mason, but it is the truth.


thanks for playing
 
Bull****. A page ago you were attempting to make a legal argument.

NOT bull****. I made a general legal argument because you asked for one. Did you really think I was going to pore over Colorado law as if it were the only legal or philosophical argument that was relevant? We are NOT arguing Colorado law here. Understand that. We are arguing whether or not the defendants were justified in using lethal force to defend their business from bandits. It is my argument that they were.

If it makes you feel any better, we can toss Castle Doctrine to the wind and base the whole debate on natural law.
 
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If the guy was already down from being shot, and on his back presumably unconscious, then why shoot another, what, 5 times into his back?

How about 7 more times?

How about 10 more times?

How about 15 more times?

Do you see that if you justify the man being shot 5 more times whil unconscious, you justify any number of shots being pounded into him?

It is good to defend oneself. It is not good to murder someone in a barbarian fashion. This is not a graphic movie. This is not Grand Theft Auto. You don't unload multiple shots into a presumably wounded and unconscious person on his belly.

Wake up, Wake. We are not discussing the Oklahoma pharmacy incident here :doh
 
doesn't matter why the grand jury reached the decision it reached...only what that decision was... and SURPRISE SURPRISE it was not that these guys were guilty of murder. sorry that you can't seem to accept that, perry mason, but it is the truth.

It doesn't matter why the grand jury reached the decision it reached? That's interesting, because in your last post you said the fact that it reached that decision meant that there wasn't enough evidence to take the case to trial. Clearly, if the grand jury reached its decision for reasons other than a lack of evidence, your contention is baseless, which means that why the grand jury reached its decision is central to a contention that you've made. So I'll ask again, why do you believe the grand jury reached its decision based on lack of evidence? On what are you basing this conclusion? Other than wishful thinking that is.

Also, let's explore your reasoning a little bit more. You seem to be conflating a lack of conviction with a lack of illegal action. This is a remarkably stupid thing to do. Just because someone hasn't been convicted of a crime does not mean that they didn't commit a crime. I know you understand this, because you've referred to the victim as a thief, even though, due to his demise, he was never prosecuted for or convicted of any theft crime. So, I've got to ask, why the hypocrisy?
 
If the guy was already down from being shot, and on his back presumably unconscious, then why shoot another, what, 5 times into his back?

How about 7 more times?

How about 10 more times?

How about 15 more times?

Do you see that if you justify the man being shot 5 more times whil unconscious, you justify any number of shots being pounded into him?

It is good to defend oneself. It is not good to murder someone in a barbarian fashion. This is not a graphic movie. This is not Grand Theft Auto. You don't unload multiple shots into a presumably wounded and unconscious person on his belly.

its good to prevent someone from recovering and coming back to kill you for wounding him. that's why you should shoot to kill the first time
 
It doesn't matter why the grand jury reached the decision it reached? That's interesting, because in your last post you said the fact that it reached that decision meant that there wasn't enough evidence to take the case to trial. Clearly, if the grand jury reached its decision for reasons other than a lack of evidence, your contention is baseless, which means that why the grand jury reached its decision is central to a contention that you've made. So I'll ask again, why do you believe the grand jury reached its decision based on lack of evidence? On what are you basing this conclusion? Other than wishful thinking that is.

Also, let's explore your reasoning a little bit more. You seem to be conflating a lack of conviction with a lack of illegal action. This is a remarkably stupid thing to do. Just because someone hasn't been convicted of a crime does not mean that they didn't commit a crime. I know you understand this, because you've referred to the victim as a thief, even though, due to his demise, he was never prosecuted for or convicted of any theft crime. So, I've got to ask, why the hypocrisy?

well counselor, as both of us know someone is presumed innocent until that presumption is defeated by proof beyond a Reasonable doubt that guilt exists. if that proof is absent than the presumption of innocence is never swept away and thus the person was never "guilty of a crime" though we can say that he did commit the crime as a matter of opinion. For example, I assert OJ did murder his wife but I cannot say he is "guilty" of murder because that was never established beyond a reasonable doubt by the one decider that matter-the petit jury who tried his case.
 
NOT bull****. I made a general legal argument because you asked for one.

Again - bull****. I said this:

Under Colorado law, you do not have the right to defend your property using deadly force, and self-defense was not at issue here. Again, if you disagree, look at the law and tell me why, specifically, you believe these guys did not violate it. Appeals to authority (i.e. the grand jury) will be ignored.

You responded by invoking the castle doctrine, which is a legal concept. Clearly you were attempting to answer my question, which is pretty obviously a legal, not a philosophical question, and which actually mentioned Colorado law specifically. It's the same question, in fact, that I've been asking for the last 100 pages.

Did you really think I was going to pore over Colorado law as if it were the only legal or philosophical argument that was relevant? We are NOT arguing Colorado law here. Understand that.

I am, and have been arguing Colorado law for the last 100 pages. Understand that. If you'd like to bow out because you're too lazy to look up the statutes (which, again, I've posted in this thread), go right ahead, but please stop deluding yourself into thinking that I've been saying anything other than that these guys violated the law. If you don't want to argue Colorado law, I'd suggest you stop responding to my posts.
 
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well counselor, as both of us know someone is presumed innocent until that presumption is defeated by proof beyond a Reasonable doubt that guilt exists. if that proof is absent than the presumption of innocence is never swept away and thus the person was never "guilty of a crime" though we can say that he did commit the crime as a matter of opinion. For example, I assert OJ did murder his wife but I cannot say he is "guilty" of murder because that was never established beyond a reasonable doubt by the one decider that matter-the petit jury who tried his case.

I'm saying they committed the crime. That's what I've been saying for the last 100 pages or so. Obviously it's an opinion, but so is the contention that they didn't commit the crime. The difference being, in this case, that my opinion is consistent with both the facts as we know them and the law. So they're murderers in exactly the same way that their victim was a thief: they performed the acts and had the requisite mental state to constitute the elements of that crime. Incidentally, while I would agree that it would be mistaken to say that they've been found guilty of a crime, I don't think it's inaccurate to say that they are guilty of a crime. Obviously they weren't found guilty, but that doesn't mean they didn't violate the law.
 
If you don't want to argue Colorado law, I'd suggest you stop responding to my posts.

I have been arguing the way Colorado law should be, not the way that it is. If I am restricted from arguing the way it should be, then it seems we have nothing left to argue.


I suppose you will next want to debate whether or not today is Thursday.
 
Did burglars trespass and were attempting to steal from the property owner? Yes? then I would say the property owner was justified in using lethal force.

Property rights are not a lawful defense for using deadly force in Colorado, and the state’s so-called Make My Day law, which sets lower standard for using force, applies to households, not businesses.​


Read more: Jury sides with burglar's family in 2009 shooting death at auto lot | jury, burglar, lot - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO

Perhaps the law needs to be changed to include businesses.

I think the proper fine would have been one dollar.
 
I have been arguing the way Colorado law should be, not the way that it is. If I am restricted from arguing the way it should be, then it seems we have nothing left to argue.


I suppose you will next want to debate whether or not today is Thursday.

You've made a grand total of four posts on this thread:

1) In the first one, you claimed that I was "taking up with the side of criminals."

2) When I pointed out that that's stupid, and asked you, very specifically, to explain to me why what the three business owners did was not also a crime under the relevant law, you made a half-assed attempt to do so by a) fatuously alleging that the prosecutor must not have had a good case if he couldn't get the the grand jury to agree with him and b) inaccurately attempting to invoke the Castle Doctrine. This was pretty obviously an attempt to claim that what these guys did was not illegal. You were attempting to make a legal argument.

3) When I pointed out that you completely and totally misapplied the law, you backtracked, and suddenly started to claim that you're not interested in the law, but are, in fact, interested in a philosophical debate; and furthermore, that you are "not interested in Colorado law." This is funny, given that you chose to engage in a philosophical debate by responding to a post of mine that was not remotely about philosophy, and specifically and explicitly addressed the ramifications of Colorado law as it stands.

4) Now you're claiming that you've "been arguing the way Colorado law should be..."

This is, frankly, the most laughably and blatantly intellectually dishonest statement I've seen in recent memory.

A word of advice: Put the shovel down. You've dug yourself into a deep enough hole already.

But that's neither here nor there. In your last post, can I infer from your reference to arguing about what day of the week it is that you agree with me that it's fairly self-evident that these guys violated the law? If so, would you like to take a crack at explaining that to Oscar? Because he's been denying that fairly straightforward fact for about a hundred pages now.
 
You've made a grand total of four posts on this thread:

1) In the first one, you claimed that I was "taking up with the side of criminals."

2) When I pointed out that that's stupid, and asked you, very specifically, to explain to me why what the three business owners did was not also a crime under the relevant law, you made a half-assed attempt to do so by a) fatuously alleging that the prosecutor must not have had a good case if he couldn't get the the grand jury to agree with him and b) inaccurately attempting to invoke the Castle Doctrine. This was pretty obviously an attempt to claim that what these guys did was not illegal. You were attempting to make a legal argument.

3) When I pointed out that you completely and totally misapplied the law, you backtracked, and suddenly started to claim that you're not interested in the law, but are, in fact, interested in a philosophical debate; and furthermore, that you are "not interested in Colorado law." This is funny, given that you chose to engage in a philosophical debate by responding to a post of mine that was not remotely about philosophy, and specifically and explicitly addressed the ramifications of Colorado law as it stands.

4) Now you're claiming that you've "been arguing the way Colorado law should be..."

This is, frankly, the most laughably and blatantly intellectually dishonest statement I've seen in recent memory.

A word of advice: Put the shovel down. You've dug yourself into a deep enough hole already.

But that's neither here nor there. In your last post, can I infer from your reference to arguing about what day of the week it is that you agree with me that it's fairly self-evident that these guys violated the law? If so, would you like to take a crack at explaining that to Oscar? Because he's been denying that fairly straightforward fact for about a hundred pages now.

squeal all you want mattlock, innocent until PROVEN guilty is a cornerstone of the american justice system. your OPINION doesn't prove these guys are guilty of anything.
 
squeal all you want mattlock, innocent until PROVEN guilty is a cornerstone of the american justice system. your OPINION doesn't prove these guys are guilty of anything.

And your opinion doesn't prove that they aren't. Why don't we compare our analysis of the situation and see which opinion has more merit? I've asked you to do so many, many times, and you've failed entirely every single time. Keep pushing the opinion angle if you like. All that tells me is that you lack the courage to actually stand up for what you claim to believe by making a real argument.
 
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squeal all you want mattlock, innocent until PROVEN guilty is a cornerstone of the american justice system. your OPINION doesn't prove these guys are guilty of anything.

They were found not guilty of murder. However in a civil suit they were found guilty. So they were guilty by the law. Just not of murder.
 
And your opinion doesn't prove that they aren't. .

sure, but the FACT (the only fact in this arguement) that they were not convicted of anything does.

they were not convicted, they are in the eyes of the law not guilty. that's the only "real arguement" that matters. you can piss yourself and cry about it all you want. it's not going to change that one basic relevant fact.

Why don't we compare our analysis of the situation and see which opinion has more merit?

why bother? the grand jury already decided that my opinion in this case has more merit. get over it
 
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They were found not guilty of murder.

that's what I've been saying all along. Mattlock is the one who's been squealing that they are murderers.

However in a civil suit they were found guilty.

wrongo boyo, they were found to be liable. there is a difference
 
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