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Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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Ikari said:
How do you know? How do you know that the guy in the closet doesn't have a weapon and that he just needed time to get it out and had to run while he could free it? How do you KNOW that he is no longer a threat? You've used HINDSIGHT to show that they were not a threat at the time; but hindsight is never known in advance (hence the name HINDSIGHT). If he runs into the closet, what guarantee do you have that he doesn't have the gun, that he isn't going to pop out shooting? He's already made the decision to break into your home, to steal your stuff; what else is he capable of? You DON'T KNOW. This is some drugged up stranger breaking into your place and stealing your stuff, you have NO guarantee that he can't or won't escalate the confrontation.
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Maybe he does. Maybe he's in there loading his gun, which for some reason he brought unloaded and stowed in such a way that he couldn't get to it without secreting himself in a closet. So what? If you see the door start to open you can still blow him away before he has a chance to fire, let alone aim and fire.
 
Getting killed while stealing someone else's property = the price of doin' business.
 
Ikari said:
But apparently "justified" to you means to wait until he starts shooting at you first.
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No, justified simply means what the law say it means: that you have a REASONABLE belief that you are at IMMINENT risk of death or great bodily harm, AND you have no opportunity to withdraw.
 
AdamT said:
Maybe he does. Maybe he's in there loading his gun, which for some reason he brought unloaded and stowed in such a way that he couldn't get to it without secreting himself in a closet. So what? If you see the door start to open you can still blow him away before he has a chance to fire, let alone aim and fire.
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You want me to stand in front of the door and see if he comes out shooting? Maybe he fires through the walls or doors, possibly hitting myself and my family. According to you, I had no reasonable access to action to stop that. He's already demonstrated the willingness to commit crimes, so I should just wait to get shot at to see if I should respond? I should take that risk to myself and my family? No. Don't ****ing break into my place and we aren't going to have a problem. But don't ask me to play the victim when I've done nothing wrong other than secure my home. It's a nice "ideal" you have. Shut up and die, you have no right to secure yourself, your property, or the welfare of your family till you're dead. At which point you can respond.
 
AdamT said:
Maybe he does. Maybe he's in there loading his gun, which for some reason he brought unloaded and stowed in such a way that he couldn't get to it without secreting himself in a closet. So what? If you see the door start to open you can still blow him away before he has a chance to fire, let alone aim and fire.
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and what happens if he loads his gun and then starts firing at you through the door?

point is, he never should have been there, the guys had no way of knowing what kind of weapon he had.
 
OscarB63 said:
and what happens if he loads his gun and then starts firing at you through the door?
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Well then you're just ****ed. But the death of you and your family is offset by the criminal's daughter still having a father around.
 
Ikari said:
You want me to stand in front of the door and see if he comes out shooting? Maybe he fires through the walls or doors, possibly hitting myself and my family. According to you, I had no reasonable access to action to stop that. He's already demonstrated the willingness to commit crimes, so I should just wait to get shot at to see if I should respond? I should take that risk to myself and my family? No. Don't ****ing break into my place and we aren't going to have a problem. But don't ask me to play the victim when I've done nothing wrong other than secure my home. It's a nice "ideal" you have. Shut up and die, you have no right to secure yourself, your property, or the welfare of your family till you're dead. At which point you can respond.
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Hopefully you're smart enough not to stand directly in front of the door. Hopefully you're smart enough to have already packed the wife and kids into the car. Hopefully you're not going to fire wildly through the hollow core door and shoot your own wife and kids, or your neighors or their kids. Hopefully it IS a burlglar and not a college friend who's playing a prank and ends up getting shot in the face. Again, it's a reasonableness standard.
 
OscarB63 said:
and what happens if he loads his gun and then starts firing at you through the door?
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Then you shoot him. Or if you're smart, you're long gone by then.
 
AdamT said:
Hopefully you're smart enough not to stand directly in front of the door. Hopefully you're smart enough to have already packed the wife and kids into the car. Hopefully you're not going to fire wildly through the hollow core door and shoot your own wife and kids, or your neighors or their kids. Hopefully it IS a burlglar and not a college friend who's playing a prank and ends up getting shot in the face. Again, it's a reasonableness standard.
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So guy breaks into my house, I find him, he runs into the closet by which point I should have already packed my family "away" and should run away from my own property leaving him to steal everything he wants wherein I'll have to fight insurance to try to recover any of the lost valuables (if replaceable) and hope that the cops will eventually track the guy down and pray that he doesn't actually have a weapon and isn't going to try to escalate the attack.

In short, your answer is to play the victim and pray to a god. Well ****...I don't believe in gods, so I guess I have to rely on myself to defend myself, my property and my family.
 
AdamT said:
The point is that there's no risk from not shooting the guy through the closet. You call the cops and they'll be there in five minutes. In the meantime you say, "if I see that door move your dead", or whatever.
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unless of course he shoots you through the door or manages to charge you before you get a shot off and then murders your family?

You have no clue whether theres a risk or not thats why you dont live in reality
 
Ikari said:
So guy breaks into my house, I find him, he runs into the closet by which point I should have already packed my family "away" and should run away from my own property leaving him to steal everything he wants wherein I'll have to fight insurance to try to recover any of the lost valuables (if replaceable) and hope that the cops will eventually track the guy down and pray that he doesn't actually have a weapon and isn't going to try to escalate the attack.

In short, your answer is to play the victim and pray to a god. Well ****...I don't believe in gods, so I guess I have to rely on myself to defend myself, my property and my family.
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Mmm, no, reasonableness ... reasonableness. If the guy runs into the closet you cover it with your gun and tell him you'll blow him up if he moves the door. Meanwhile you tell your wife to get the kids in the car and head over to [wherever] until the cops arrive and haul the f***er away.

Does your version sound more reasonable? The guy doesn't appear to be going anywhere but you unload your gun into the closet, with the bullets going god-knows-where, and where are the kids anyway? Geez, hope I don't find one of them with a bullet hold in her forhead! Hey, maybe we should call the cops? Hey daddy, what's that red stuff coming out of the closet? Shut up, junior! Grab the guy's other wrist and help me drag him into the dining room!!
 
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AdamT said:
Then you shoot him. Or if you're smart, you're long gone by then.
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jeez, i guess it is people like you who write the rules of engagement for our military.


"hey sarge, they're shooting at us. when can we shoot back?"

"according to the ROE, we have to have taken at least 3 casualties before we can return fire"


stupid, just plain stupid.
 
AdamT said:
The fact that the guy was a drug addict and burglar was not why he was shot. This is like saying that, if you're going down the highway and exceeding the speed limit by 10mph, and you get T-boned by a drunk driver, it's not the drunk driver's fault. It's yours for exceeding the speed limit.
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actually it IS you have to start with domino ONE like I said normal people that live in reality and use logic understand this.

and your example above is NOTHING like what happen they arent even the same ball park.
Not to mention that without more info it very well could be the speeders fault LOL
 
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When you set out armed, to steal another person's property, you are exhibiting a criminal lack of regard for the lives of innocent persons who might object to your theft of their property... and likely deserve whatever you get.


Meth-heads packing multiple concealed knives are a real danger. A knife is every bit as deadly as a gun, within arm's reach perhaps deadlier. If they'd tried to apprehend him, he may well have killed one or more innocent persons. The fact that he went to commit theft armed indicates he valued his "right" to steal from another person's livlihood more than he valued the innocent lives that might get in the way of his criminal intention.

Make no mistake about it, this was a bad person and the world is better off without him. I'm sorry his parents lost a son, and his daughter lost a father.... no, wait, screw that crap I'm not going to lie. They are probably better off without him. Maybe the little daughter will have a chance to grow up to be something worthwhile, without a meth-head thief of a father around. His parents... well I know they hurt, you love your kids even if they're scum... but maybe they should have raised him better or intervened when he started stealing for drug money.

No. I have no sympathy for the deceased. I'll grant you that the business owners might have handled this better, but I understand the frustration that can come when you've tried to get the police and the courts to deal with something 5, 10, 20, 50 times and nothing changes... and 1 less scumbag meth-addict thief is not a bad thing IMHO.
 
Centrist77 said:
actually it IS you have to start with domino ONE like I said normal people that live in reality and use logic understand this.

and your example above is NOTHING like what happen they arent even the same ball park.
Not to mention that without more info it very well could be the speeders fault LOL
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exactamundo.

if this guy wasn't a drug addict and a burglar he never would've been on the property, hence he never would've been shot. therefore, one of the main reasons he was shot is because he was a drug addict burglar.

sometimes it really is that simple.
 
Goshin said:
When you set out armed, to steal another person's property, you are exhibiting a criminal lack of regard for the lives of innocent persons who might object to your theft of their property... and likely deserve whatever you get.
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How is that? If you steal my hubcaps you aren't threatening my life.
 
AdamT said:
How is that? If you steal my hubcaps you aren't threatening my life.
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you are big on "what ifs"..

what if I catch you stealing my hubcaps and your drug addled brain tells you "kill him so you won't go to jail for stealing" are you threatening my life then?
 
AdamT said:
Mmm, no, reasonableness ... reasonableness. If the guy runs into the closet you cover it with your gun and tell him you'll blow him up if he moves the door. Meanwhile you tell your wife to get the kids in the car and head over to [wherever] until the cops arrive and haul the f***er away.
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So I must take a vantage point of the door were I can get a clear shot because I can't shoot through anything; thus putting me in his line of fire as well. I should pray that he doesn't have a weapon he's willing to use and will at least have the common courtesy of opening the door first before he chooses to open fire upon me. That's your definition of reasonable. Here's mine. If you don't want me to shoot you, do not commit crimes against me. How's that for reasonable? I'm not the one in the wrong, I'm not the one who made the choice to act against the rights of others. But I sure as hell DO have the right to defend my own rights and liberties against outside force.

AdamT said:
Does your version sound more reasonable? The guy doesn't appear to be going anywhere but you unload your gun into the closet, with the bullets going god-knows-where, and where are the kids anyway? Geez, hope I don't find one of them with a bullet hold in her forhead! Hey, maybe we should call the cops? Hey daddy, what's that red stuff coming out of the closet? Shut up, junior! Grab the guy's other wrist and help me drag him into the dining room!!
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If we exclude your obvious hyperbole, yes mine is more rational for mine puts power in the hands of the law abiding citizen protecting their own rights and liberties. If I have the right to violently overthrow the government should it become too large a threat against my rights and liberties (and I do), I have the right to use force against others equally trying to infringe upon my rights and liberties.
 
OscarB63 said:
you are big on "what ifs"..

what if I catch you stealing my hubcaps and your drug addled brain tells you "kill him so you won't go to jail for stealing" are you threatening my life then?
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Umm, if it's just a thought running through my head, no. If I run across the street and hide behind a car, no. OTOH, if I run towards you aggressively then it would be reasonable for you to defend yourself.
 
OscarB63 said:
you are big on "what ifs"..
what if I catch you stealing my hubcaps and your drug addled brain tells you "kill him so you won't go to jail for stealing" are you threatening my life then?
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Actually, you're the one introducing what-ifs. The facts in this case, and the jury, resulted in them being found liable for wrongful death.

If your defense is that the guy stealing your hubcaps was in your opinon, a threat to your life, I also doubt that would hold up in court. That's a hypothetical though.
 
AdamT said:
Umm, if it's just a thought running through my head, no. If I run across the street and hide behind a car, no. OTOH, if I run towards you aggressively then it would be reasonable for you to defend yourself.
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If you say that to a cop, you'll be arrested for making threats against the police. Or shot. Or beaten to death. Which ever one they feel is best at the time. If you make what I interpret as a credible threat against my life, including saying you're going to kill me during the commission of a crime, I have every reason to believe that you will carry out that threat and thus defend myself.
 
AdamT said:
Umm, if it's just a thought running through my head, no. If I run across the street and hide behind a car, no. OTOH, if I run towards you aggressively then it would be reasonable for you to defend yourself.
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what if you run into my garage and hide?
 
Adam T assumes that since the guy ran into the shed that he was fleeing and afraid

the rest of us reasonable people don't make the assupmtion that an armed criminal has good or peaceful intentions


:shrug:
 
OscarB63 said:
what if you run into my garage and hide?
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Stand in front of the garage and clearly shout "Well my good sir, the chase has come to an end, as it be. I shall now inform the cops and they will be here in about 5-10 minutes if they feel like it. In the meantime, my good man, I would find it quite sporting of you if you would not attempt any further attempt on my life or property. We are both reasonable men, yes? Well then it's safe to assume that you are not arming yourself further with intent to escape and/or harm myself or my family. In that case, would you be so kind as to hold up there while the police arrive. Thank you very much my good sir, tea will be served shortly".
 
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