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U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

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Lucky Beaver!
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I found this article in The Globe and Mail and had to share. I admit I smirk when I hear Americans complain about tax rates as I knew they pay less than most developed countries. In fact, tax rates in the US today are comparable to those of 1965! Having said that, there's no graph that shows which country gets more bang for their taxed bucks, but that is another point altogether.

I'm interested in hearing feedback and whether this surprises you or not.


snip...

“Either Americans don’t realize their economy is taxed less than other major economies, or they just have a different standard of what an appropriate tax level is,” said Prof. Betcherman, who spent a decade at the World Bank in Washington.

Most of the rest of the developed world – Canada included – has managed to bear higher tax burdens for decades, without grinding their economies into the ground. Economists say even an economically weakened U.S. could cope with a heavier tax load.

The total tax burden on Americans, as a percentage of gross domestic product, stood at 24 per cent in 2009 – lower than it was in 1965 and still falling. That compares to 31.1 per cent in Canada, 34.3 per cent in Britain, 42 per cent in France, 37 per cent in Germany and 43.5 per cent in Italy. The Japanese, Australians and South Koreans all pay significantly more.

U.S.: In state of denial over taxes? - The Globe and Mail


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What the Euro-trash fail to realize is that the United States was never intended to be a Socialist Utopia like Europe wants to be. We as Americans do not turn to the Government to fix all of our problems; or at least we're not supposed to. Ours was intended to be a LIMITED Government, not an all-encompassing one, like they have chosen to submit to in Europe. Therefore, we are much less interested in paying into a government that we don't feel we're getting anything out of, and don't want anything from.
 
What the Euro-trash fail to realize is that the United States was never intended to be a Socialist Utopia like Europe wants to be. We as Americans do not turn to the Government to fix all of our problems; or at least we're not supposed to. Ours was intended to be a LIMITED Government, not an all-encompassing one, like they have chosen to submit to in Europe. Therefore, we are much less interested in paying into a government that we don't feel we're getting anything out of, and don't want anything from.

By "Americans" you mean people who think like who, and by people who think like you I mean just you because there's no possible way there are two of you, at least I hope to God.
 
Personal income taxes in the US are typically lower by average in America. However, the corporate tax rate is extremely high compared to other countries.
CorporateIncomeTaxRates.gif
 
By "Americans" you mean people who think like who, and by people who think like you I mean just you because there's no possible way there are two of you, at least I hope to God.

There are more of us than you want to think about, Wiseone. There's you're happy thought for the day.
 
Personal income taxes in the US are typically lower by average in America. However, the corporate tax rate is extremely high compared to other countries.
CorporateIncomeTaxRates.gif

Does that include money for employee healthcare?
 
What the Euro-trash fail to realize is that the United States was never intended to be a Socialist Utopia like Europe wants to be.

First off, let's make this discussion adult and cease the name calling.

As for your point, where exactly does it state that the US was never intended to be socialist? That is surprising to me since many of your programs (SS, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, etc.) are, no?
 
By "Americans" you mean people who think like who, and by people who think like you I mean just you because there's no possible way there are two of you, at least I hope to God.

Well...considering that since the country's beginning to current we have not had socialized health care and maintained as low a fed profile as possible, I would suggest that at least until recently, the dependent class that desires greater socialization and higher taxes of those that succeed in this country to support those that dont has been in the minority.
 
First off, let's make this discussion adult and cease the name calling.

As for your point, where exactly does it state that the US was never intended to be socialist? That is surprising to me since many of your programs (SS, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, etc.) are, no?

Theoretically at least, Social Security and Unemployment are paid by citizens. SS was created as a failsafe following the depression. We see what has happened since...rather than being seen as a failsafe it is now viewed by many as their sole source of retirement income. Until recently there hasnt been a serious push for Universal health care. I think the message of the founding fathers was clear...federal involvement only where necessary and social programs for those truly incapable of providing for themselves.
 
What's the point of this thread? To make the case for the US to become something it isn't? Here we are the lone super power within a 300 year existence, and there is no end to outside suggestions that we change our fundamental principles. Do I have to actually state the obvious about how stupid such a notion is? Could some of these other countries be living in peace today if a certain country were not sitting across the ocean with the capability to maintain liberty? And now we should change the premise of liberty, and burden our citizens with the the shackles of higher taxes?

:doh
 
As for your point, where exactly does it state that the US was never intended to be socialist? That is surprising to me since many of your programs (SS, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, etc.) are, no?

All of which are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Unfortunately, since 1860 we have not had a Constitutional government here in the United States. We've had a rogue government in Washington DC since the Lincoln administration.
 
What's the point of this thread? To make the case for the US to become something it isn't? Here we are the lone super power within a 300 year existence, and there is no end to outside suggestions that we change our fundamental principles. Do I have to actually state the obvious about how stupid such a notion is? Could some of these other countries be living in peace today if a certain country were not sitting across the ocean with the capability to maintain liberty? And now we should change the premise of liberty, and burden our citizens with the the shackles of higher taxes?

:doh

The point is that a 3% increase in tax rates doesn't turn us into socialists.
 
And the socialist ignore the fact that Americans get hit by far more sources of taxes than Europe. We have federal income tax and FICA which are two biggies. We have other forms of income tax such as capital gains. But then we have federal taxes on telephone calls, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, and so forth and so on.

Then we hav3e state taxes. They tax most of the same things that the feds tax and then some, such as a sales tax.

Then we have county taxes. That's the property tax, another sales tax, automobile taxes, and whatever else they feel like taxing.
then we have city taxes. Certainly a sales tax, another property tax, seat tax in theaters, hotel tax, and so more.
Then we had special improvement districts. Where I lived, that meant another property tax for some but not others to go to the hospital. And, a special improvement district for street lights assessed to each property owners.

And so it goes. Many of the socialists arguing the U.S. has low taxes are lying and are in the favored groups who pay low taxes. To me, it's shocking that almost half of the country pays zero in Income Tax. Those existing totally on the dole have no taxes because they have no earned income.

And don't overlook the flat-out lying part. In the U.S. the politicians have found lots, maybe over a hundred, euphemisms for lying but it's still lying. My favorite is the current, "I didn't explain this well enough," when what is meant, "I lied and got caught."
 
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Europe isn't socialist in the economic sense. They simply have more entitlement programs. One issue is whether or not Americans trust the government to spend their money. Currently the wealthy and middle class are being taxed somewhere in the 30th percentile on their income. Now what do Americans get for their contribution in taxes? Healthcare? Comes out of my paycheck until I turn 65. Retirement? I'm being told Social Security won't be around when I'm eligible because we have no money. Foreign policy? We have military bases all over the world and are currently engaged in two (maybe three) wars I don't agree with. Foreign aid? We give aid to support military dictators and fund the IMF, who in turn tries to bailout Greece so Greeks don't have to retire at the same age as Americans. We spend much more as a % of GDP than any other country on healthcare and yet cover a smaller % of people. And despite all this, the US currently has trillions of dollars in debt. I want government to show me they can invest my money better than I can. Otherwise, why would I want to give the government more?

PS: I understand taxes will have to be higher to decrease the debt. This was a long-term assessment.
 
Personal income taxes in the US are typically lower by average in America. However, the corporate tax rate is extremely high compared to other countries.
CorporateIncomeTaxRates.gif

On paper yes as in "Here is the corporate tax rate number".. then yes. But in reality the tax burden is one of the lowest in the world due to loopholes, subsidies and so on.
 
And the socialist ignore the fact that Americans get hit by far more sources of taxes than Europe. We have federal income tax and FICA which are two biggies. We have other forms of income tax such as capital gains. But then we have federal taxes on telephone calls, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, and so forth and so on.

Then we hav3e state taxes. They tax most of the same things that the feds tax and then some, such as a sales tax.

Then we have county taxes. That's the property tax, another sales tax, automobile taxes, and whatever else they feel like taxing.
then we have city taxes. Certainly a sales tax, another property tax, seat tax in theaters, hotel tax, and so more.
Then we had special improvement districts. Where I lived, that meant another property tax for some but not others to go to the hospital. And, a special improvement district for street lights assessed to each property owners.

And so it goes. Many of the socialists arguing the U.S. has low taxes are lying and are in the favored groups who pay low taxes. To me, it's shocking that almost half of the country pays zero in Income Tax. Those existing totally on the dole have no taxes because they have no earned income.

And don't overlook the flat-out lying part. In the U.S. the politicians have found lots, maybe over a hundred, euphemisms for lying but it's still lying. My favorite is the current, "I didn't explain this well enough," when what is meant, "I lied and got caught."

I think you need to take another look at the first graph in the OP. It includes ALL taxes

Once again, the rightwing must obsess over income taxes to the exclusion of all other taxes in order to justify the massive redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy.
 
And the socialist ignore the fact that Americans get hit by far more sources of taxes than Europe. We have federal income tax and FICA which are two biggies. We have other forms of income tax such as capital gains. But then we have federal taxes on telephone calls, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, and so forth and so on.

..... and Europeans have gas taxes, council taxes, property taxes, car taxes, road taxes, trash collection fees err taxes, energy taxes, green taxes, VAT, oh.. and capital gains tax as well plus many more.... There aint much difference, other than the rates of the taxes we are talking about and the amount of deductions you can get in the US.

And so it goes. Many of the socialists arguing the U.S. has low taxes are lying and are in the favored groups who pay low taxes. To me, it's shocking that almost half of the country pays zero in Income Tax. Those existing totally on the dole have no taxes because they have no earned income.

What is more shocking is that people like you actually believe that drivel and use it as a political ploy to LOWER taxes. Hey I understand your swiss cheese holed tax system needs a major overhaul so the burden gets to be more fair on all fronts, but dont blame the lowest income American's for the excess spending of the middle class and up over the last 20+ years.
 
..... and Europeans have gas taxes, council taxes, property taxes, car taxes, road taxes, trash collection fees err taxes, energy taxes, green taxes, VAT, oh.. and capital gains tax as well plus many more.... There aint much difference, other than the rates of the taxes we are talking about and the amount of deductions you can get in the US.



What is more shocking is that people like you actually believe that drivel and use it as a political ploy to LOWER taxes. Hey I understand your swiss cheese holed tax system needs a major overhaul so the burden gets to be more fair on all fronts, but dont blame the lowest income American's for the excess spending of the middle class and up over the last 20+ years.

Two points

1) The chart in the OP compares ALL taxes. How those taxes are apportioned to various forms of economic activity is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not the US is a high tax nation

2) The rightwingers love to whine about income taxes, to the exclusion of all other taxes, because it draws attention away from the big picture.
 
On paper yes as in "Here is the corporate tax rate number".. then yes. But in reality the tax burden is one of the lowest in the world due to loopholes, subsidies and so on.

Of course. The statutory tax rate is meaningless. The important number is the EFFECTIVE tax rate: what corporations actually pay after all the exclusions and deductions:

final-chart.png
 
I'm not Chilean, French, Swedish, Germanic, English - I'm none of these. I've never been to their countries, lived there - even engaged in conversation from someone who is from any of these places.

So why should their approach to keeping a country affect my views on how our country should function?

These types of discussions reveal very interesting facts - but they don't equate to my life, my expenses, our society and how we live.
 
I'm not Chilean, French, Swedish, Germanic, English - I'm none of these. I've never been to their countries, lived there - even engaged in conversation from someone who is from any of these places.

So why should their approach to keeping a country affect my views on how our country should function?

These types of discussions reveal very interesting facts - but they don't equate to my life, my expenses, our society and how we live.

Examining the economic policies of other nations, and seeing the results of those policies, is what reasonable people do.
 
Examining the economic policies of other nations, and seeing the results of those policies, is what reasonable people do.

You mean we shouldn't reinvent the wheel every day?
 
Examining the economic policies of other nations, and seeing the results of those policies, is what reasonable people do.

So these other countries have it figured out?

None of these countries have it 'figured out' - in one way or another, to some degree. They've suffered political or social unrest due to social or other policies. They've all had to help others - such as was the united bailout (again and again) of Greece or, like Greece, they've folded and have been bailed out numerous times and still barely are stayed from falling over the edge.

So - unless some other country in the history of the world has managed to sidestep misery, excess, poorly managed funds and conquered all the issues therein - I fail to see how looking to others will aid us in figuring it all out.

Not saying it's not interesting - but there are no 'answers' to these issues - everyone, it seems, is trying to figure it out - still.

If a single country HAD figured out the ideal solution to any one particular problem then all others will enact the same measures and gain the same results. But that's not the case - is it?
 
So these other countries have it figured out?

None of these countries have it 'figured out' - in one way or another, to some degree. They've suffered political or social unrest due to social or other policies. They've all had to help others - such as was the united bailout (again and again) of Greece or, like Greece, they've folded and have been bailed out numerous times and still barely are stayed from falling over the edge.

So - unless some other country in the history of the world has managed to sidestep misery, excess, poorly managed funds and conquered all the issues therein - I fail to see how looking to others will aid us in figuring it all out.

Not saying it's not interesting - but there are no 'answers' to these issues - everyone, it seems, is trying to figure it out - still.

If a single country HAD figured out the ideal solution to any one particular problem then all others will enact the same measures and gain the same results. But that's not the case - is it?

So you think we should make the perfect the enemy of the good?

Based on our current situation, it is clear that we haven't figured it out either

Saying that no one has figured it out is no a reason for not even looking at what others have tried and the results their efforts have brought.
 
So you think we should make the perfect the enemy of the good?

Based on our current situation, it is clear that we haven't figured it out either

Saying that no one has figured it out is no a reason for not even looking at what others have tried and the results their efforts have brought.

Well: look ot them for what? The believe that if we just *raise* our taxes then we'd be better off?

It's not how muc hwe tax - it's what we do with it, what we value as a society, what our goals are - and so many other things that matter.
 
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