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U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

Geeesh...I wasnt changing it to families...i was being a smartass. I LIKE pointing out to all the ideologues that bleat on about evil corporations that their liberal Gods are just as guilty of the **** they accuse evil capitalists of doing.

No, not a smart ass. A diversion because you had no argument

And the reason why they can avoid taxes like that is because their wealth came from corps which can more easily evade taxes. That's why liberals support higher corp taxes, which would prevent/reduce such tax avoidance by anyone, regardless of party affiliation.
 
No, not a smart ass. A diversion because you had no argument

And the reason why they can avoid taxes like that is because their wealth came from corps which can more easily evade taxes. That's why liberals support higher corp taxes, which would prevent/reduce such tax avoidance by anyone, regardless of party affiliation.

An argument to WHAT...yet another idiotic rant about evil corporations? Tell it to Obama's buddies at GE.
Liberals support higher taxes so they can keep tossing slop to their crippled and dependent pets. They know what 'the people' want.
 
The spending on TARP under Obama was authorized while bush* was president.
Obama did not expand upon the Iraq War, which was supposed to last "weeks, not months or years". And he surged in Afghanistan because bush* fumbled the ball there. He extended the tax cuts at the insistence of republicans and spending on HSA, TSA, Medicare D, etc are the responsibility of bush* and republicans.

TARP I, not TARP II, and if you want to play the hyper partisan game the spending on TARP was authorized under the Democratic Congress which is who controls spending. Obama didn't expand on Iraq, he drew down in line with Bush's time table. On the flip side he surged in Afghanistan and engaged in Libya. You can keep trying to make this into a partisan bitch fest, but you're doing it one sided. I made no comments in any way shape or form to the legitimacy, success, or necessity of the wars...simply that they occured, and that they were continued and/or expanded. I'm speaking about FACTS, what I just said is a FACT, what you're trying to focus on is opinion and partisan rhetoric. You're doing it in attempts to bait me into playing that game, and I'm not interested, I've dealt with hyper partisan hacks before...you're nothing new.

it's a deficit that our economy can easily deal with and it doesn't require cutting every fed agency to 0.

Irrelevant to the fact it was pointing out your idiotic statements regarding the deficit and the effects cuts to the military would have on it.

And I never said the entire deficit is bush*'s fault. That is fiction

No, you stated singularly that the reason for our deficit is "on budget" expenditures, not off budget, and proceeded to post up pictures focusing on "bush" tax cuts, tarp, and wars accounting for all the deficit. This is, of course, all fictional hyper partisan bull****. Cutting all "on budget" expenditures would still leave us with a deficit. Cutting all relics of the Bush era would still leave us with a deficit.

No, I said a specific amount (ie $48 billion). Nice try

Ah, so generic "billions" which could mean anything from $3 billion to $999 billion is something grant and to be applauded, something specific like $48 billion is "nothing" then.

Please, indicate where the cut off in "billions" is for what's "nothing" and what's something to gloat about? I'm eager to be enlgihtened.

More fictions. I have posted links to back up what I said.

Yes, you've masterfuly posted biased sources that don't actually have the information about the things they're referencing all throughout this thread.

Well, if someone on the internet says so, it must be true!!

Your posts say it, not me.

If you weren't so busy trying to win an internet debate, you would have read the article and realized the # came from a reputable, non-leftwing source.

I did, it came from a random economist at Bloomberg who was speaking about a graph he had on a television show, and reported it with a typically hyper partisan left wing slant that is known for the Daily KOS while providing absolutely 0 information concerning how he came to that number, what that number meant, etc save for calling it a "projection". Meanwhile, I've posted not a projection but the actual, official, REAL numbers by the agency itself.
 
You also seem to be banking on this economic malaise continuing indefinitely, along with the attendant low revenue and high spending on social services.

Socia Security is a small problem relative to military spending, Medicare/aid, and too low tax rates.

Of course he is. The projections used by the SSA and CBO are REQUIRED BY LAW to use an unrealistically low projection for economic growth. Zyphlin refuses to even read the info because it was posted on a "leftwing blog"
 
An argument to WHAT...yet another idiotic rant about evil corporations? Tell it to Obama's buddies at GE.
Liberals support higher taxes so they can keep tossing slop to their crippled and dependent pets. They know what 'the people' want.

The argument that corps don't pay the top marginal rate for corporate taxes. Don't you even remember what we were discussing?
 
He doesn't ignore them. He dismisses them. And no one has suggested raising taxes to 70%. That's a straw man

For someone saying "try reading" you should really look up the addage about glass houses.

I didn't say anyone suggested we raise taxes 70%. I said we'd need to increase tax revenue by nearly 70% to cover our current spending deficit to a point where we'd come out neutral.


Yes, many things should maybe be on the table. But all of them are secondary to reforming entitlements and cutting military spending.

And the SS portion of entitlements, which make up the largest share, are fully funded by any reasonable projection.

No, they're not. They ran a deficit this year and are set up in such a way that a deficit is likely to be ran for years to come. And, regardless of which, all other entitlements still make up the largest percentage of federal spending and still would require reform even if you ignored social security.

There is no need to balance the budget. We can run deficits far into the future. The problem is the size of the deficits. Your argument is based on a fallacy.

A concept that works perhaps when you have a relatively small and managable debt so running an occasional deficit isn't a big deal. We've got a MASSIVE debt that is ever increasing with no hope in sight anytime soon of running a true and honest surplus. Small occasional deficits aren't a bad thing when you're not TRILLIONS in debt.
 
It is a strawman argument. No one is suggesting that we maintain the current level of spending. What the Democrats are suggesting is that we need to address the deficits through both spending cuts and tax increases.

Republicans, OTOH, want to address the situation strictly through spending cuts.
 
You also seem to be banking on this economic malaise continuing indefinitely, along with the attendant low revenue and high spending on social services.

Socia Security is a small problem relative to military spending, Medicare/aid, and too low tax rates.

Actually, it is Sangha whose focusing primarily on Social Security. If you'll actually go back and check my original post you'll notice my comment was about Entitlements as a whole, not just social security. Even when you take out Social Security, entitlements account for more spending than defense by more than 10% and still make up 1/3rd of our spending.

Now, I think its ridiculous to ignore 10 to 30 year trends of lower birth rates, lower death rates, increased life expectency combined with nearly doubling the number of people drawing from Social Security and expect that its not going to run into funding issues pretty quickly as was evident even THIS year when we ran a deficit which is why I think SS needs to be looked at...along with all other entitlements...to be reformed.

And I agree, the military is a major issue as well.

But I disagree with you regarding tax rates. As I stated, and you can look at the federal budget and do the numbers yourself or I can check another one of my posts and show you it if need be, we'd need to raise revenues by 67% over what we currently pull in to account for our current spending levels. Even nixing all of the military we'd need to raise revenues by 35% and I think you can agree that bringing Defense Spending from over 20% to 0% is unrealistic. Tax Rates, while perhaps a problem, are no where near the size of an issue as Entitlements and Defense spending.

If you want to make an argument with them being #3, sure...I could possibly expect that. But its #3 by a good ways.
 
It is a strawman argument. No one is suggesting that we maintain the current level of spending. What the Democrats are suggesting is that we need to address the deficits through both spending cuts and tax increases.

Republicans, OTOH, want to address the situation strictly through spending cuts.

The cuts the Democrats are suggesting, like the cuts the Republicans are suggesting, are largely focused either on 1) a small percentage of the pie that will have little to no effect 2) only ONE of the two big elephants in the room.

Furthermore, a large amount of the Democratic parties suggested spending cuts with the military is suggesting we "stop" things that we were already planning to stop and were in line to stop anyways regardless of their "cuts" or not. Unless one is unrealistic enough to believe the surge in Afghanistan was going to occur indefinitely over the next 3 or 4 decades.

Even if we reduced spending by 3 Trillion over the next 10 years, which would roughly average to 300 Billion a year (ignoring that Obama tried to Daniel Snyder it and backload it all)...we'd still need to increase revenues by roughly 53%
 
Actually, it is Sangha whose focusing primarily on Social Security. If you'll actually go back and check my original post you'll notice my comment was about Entitlements as a whole, not just social security. Even when you take out Social Security, entitlements account for more spending than defense by more than 10% and still make up 1/3rd of our spending.

Now, I think its ridiculous to ignore 10 to 30 year trends of lower birth rates, lower death rates, increased life expectency combined with nearly doubling the number of people drawing from Social Security and expect that its not going to run into funding issues pretty quickly as was evident even THIS year when we ran a deficit which is why I think SS needs to be looked at...along with all other entitlements...to be reformed.

And I agree, the military is a major issue as well.

But I disagree with you regarding tax rates. As I stated, and you can look at the federal budget and do the numbers yourself or I can check another one of my posts and show you it if need be, we'd need to raise revenues by 67% over what we currently pull in to account for our current spending levels. Even nixing all of the military we'd need to raise revenues by 35% and I think you can agree that bringing Defense Spending from over 20% to 0% is unrealistic. Tax Rates, while perhaps a problem, are no where near the size of an issue as Entitlements and Defense spending.

If you want to make an argument with them being #3, sure...I could possibly expect that. But its #3 by a good ways.

Hmm, I don't know how many ways I can say this or if it will ever sink in, but no one is suggesting that we address the situation solely through increased tax revenue. The situation can only be handled in a credible manner by cutting spending AND raising taxes.

If you pull out extraordinary spending like TARP and the stimulus package, it's clear that long-term expenditures like war spending and the Bush tax cuts are what's driving long-term deficits.
 
And I agree, the military is a major issue as well..

Military Offense budget is over 700 billion dollars. Let's cut it by two thirds. If "Corporatism" needs to hire someone to steal more OIL, pipelines, exploration, government and other rights, etc. They can call Blackwater (Z) and pay the going rate.
 
So? He is still not right on everything... he totally ignores the Bush tax cuts and the two unfunded wars Bush started. Both of these have had a massive impact on the deficit and the debt load we have today. All he is blaming is the usual suspects of the US right while ignoring the "favourites" of the US right.

Your buddy shows a graph starting in 2009 with Bush Era tax cuts out to 2019, see anything wrong with that? He also tries to refute something Z says about the history of supluses with this:

Z: Where did I say it didn't?


Z: It however destroys the notion that its a TWELVE Trillion dollar surplus, not to mention destroys the implications you attempt to make that suggest that somehow that surplus is something to be counted on in the future rather than a trend that is set to become extinct.

^^ This is where he falls over his own feet and fails. No where in that statement does Z say there wasn't a history of surpluses (since he said this history/trend will end).
 
The cuts the Democrats are suggesting, like the cuts the Republicans are suggesting, are largely focused either on 1) a small percentage of the pie that will have little to no effect 2) only ONE of the two big elephants in the room.

Furthermore, a large amount of the Democratic parties suggested spending cuts with the military is suggesting we "stop" things that we were already planning to stop and were in line to stop anyways regardless of their "cuts" or not. Unless one is unrealistic enough to believe the surge in Afghanistan was going to occur indefinitely over the next 3 or 4 decades.

Even if we reduced spending by 3 Trillion over the next 10 years, which would roughly average to 300 Billion a year (ignoring that Obama tried to Daniel Snyder it and backload it all)...we'd still need to increase revenues by roughly 53%

I agree -- the cuts in the debt ceiling bill are wholly inadequate to address the problem. Medicare is the 500 lbs gorilla in the room, and there's a another 500 lbs. gorilla that no one is even talking about -- federal and state pensions.
 
TARP I, not TARP II, and if you want to play the hyper partisan game the spending on TARP was authorized under the Democratic Congress which is who controls spending. Obama didn't expand on Iraq, he drew down in line with Bush's time table. On the flip side he surged in Afghanistan and engaged in Libya. You can keep trying to make this into a partisan bitch fest, but you're doing it one sided. I made no comments in any way shape or form to the legitimacy, success, or necessity of the wars...simply that they occured, and that they were continued and/or expanded. I'm speaking about FACTS, what I just said is a FACT, what you're trying to focus on is opinion and partisan rhetoric. You're doing it in attempts to bait me into playing that game, and I'm not interested, I've dealt with hyper partisan hacks before...you're nothing new.

1) TARP I & II were signed by bush* and required due to the economic policies of bush* and the republicans.

2) You repeated what I said about Iraq and Afghanistan, but you left out the part about how Obama had to surge in Af because bush* dropped the ball, in order to go after Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11 and has cost more than $1T

3) I oppose the Libya intervention but it's cost is minimal in comparison to our problems, and I never said every bit of spending is bush*'s

4) Keep whining about partisanship, but the facts show that bush* and the republican in congress turned a surplus into a deficit and nearly doubled the national debt


Irrelevant to the fact it was pointing out your idiotic statements regarding the deficit and the effects cuts to the military would have on it.

No, it's not irrelevant. And you're raising a straw man because I have never suggested that the only thing we can do is cut the military

No, you stated singularly that the reason for our deficit is "on budget" expenditures, not off budget, and proceeded to post up pictures focusing on "bush" tax cuts, tarp, and wars accounting for all the deficit. This is, of course, all fictional hyper partisan bull****. Cutting all "on budget" expenditures would still leave us with a deficit. Cutting all relics of the Bush era would still leave us with a deficit.

No, I didn't. I pointed out that your chart only included on budget expenditures. You're distorting what I said. Again

And it's not my fault that the facts have a partisan bias. The FACT is that bush* turned a surplus into a deficit with tax cuts and runaway spending.

Ah, so generic "billions" which could mean anything from $3 billion to $999 billion is something grant and to be applauded, something specific like $48 billion is "nothing" then.

No, but keep on pretending I said that.

Please, indicate where the cut off in "billions" is for what's "nothing" and what's something to gloat about? I'm eager to be enlgihtened.

When you mention specific #'s I'll comment. You mentioned a deficit of $48 billion. That would not be a problem. We could easily service that debt with economic growth

Yes, you've masterfuly posted biased sources that don't actually have the information about the things they're referencing all throughout this thread.

Yes, you have masterfully ignored the facts included and the sources of those facts. You dismissed a projection of a $22T surplus for SS because it came from a leftwing source. What you don't seem to realize, because you don't seem to have read the piece, is that the # came from an ecomonist deom BusinessWeek using govt published #'s.

When you dismiss facts without even reading them, it is you who is revealing a political bias.


Your posts say it, not me.

Nope, you said it.


I did, it came from a random economist at Bloomberg who was speaking about a graph he had on a television show, and reported it with a typically hyper partisan left wing slant that is known for the Daily KOS while providing absolutely 0 information concerning how he came to that number, what that number meant, etc save for calling it a "projection". Meanwhile, I've posted not a projection but the actual, official, REAL numbers by the agency itself.

No, he was making the same exact argument that you are - we have to cut entitlements in order to get the deficit under control.

And I have explained why that one projection you cherry picked is flawed. You have yet to show how my refutation is flawed. In fact, you haven't even tried
 
The argument that corps don't pay the top marginal rate for corporate taxes. Don't you even remember what we were discussing?

The OP was about the overall tax rate. It devolved into the typical evil corporations bull****. And again...anytime y'all want to have any credibility you go after Obama for his support of and from GE. Throw his ass on the grill baby. Damned evil corporatist.

The OP is flawed from the get go. We dont pay for the same things. We dont have the same social programs. Our priorities are radically different. Our philosophy is radically different. The primary separation is that many of us think spending and taxation is too high and y'all think we should spend MORE and others should pay more in taxes. Heavy emphasis on that 'others' part.
 
For someone saying "try reading" you should really look up the addage about glass houses.

I didn't say anyone suggested we raise taxes 70%. I said we'd need to increase tax revenue by nearly 70% to cover our current spending deficit to a point where we'd come out neutral.

And that is a straw man because no one is saying that we should do that. You've refuted no one and nothing.

Most here, including myself, are saying we need a combo of spending cuts and tax increases. However, just because we have to cut spending, that doesn't mean it has to come from SS.



Yes, many things should maybe be on the table. But all of them are secondary to reforming entitlements and cutting military spending.

Reforming entitlements /= cutting SS. For one thing, we can reform health care into a UHC single payer system and save hundreds of billions over a decade and make medicare and medicaid solvent. We can "reform" SS by lifting the FICA tax, which would eliminate any chance of SS developing a long-term deficit. We can have a jobs program which will raise tax revenues and SS revenues.

You are ignoring these alterrnatives so you can insist that we must cut SS benefits.


No, they're not. They ran a deficit this year and are set up in such a way that a deficit is likely to be ran for years to come. And, regardless of which, all other entitlements still make up the largest percentage of federal spending and still would require reform even if you ignored social security.

They ran a deficit this year because so many people are unemployed. The solution is a jobs program, not cutting benefits.

And medicare and medicaid, the two next largest programs can be reformed with a UHC single payer system and save hundreds of billions over a decade and make both programs solvent

A concept that works perhaps when you have a relatively small and managable debt so running an occasional deficit isn't a big deal. We've got a MASSIVE debt that is ever increasing with no hope in sight anytime soon of running a true and honest surplus. Small occasional deficits aren't a bad thing when you're not TRILLIONS in debt.

If we grow the economy, the debt shrinks in relation and becomes manageable.
 
I think entitlements need to be reformed, badly. I think we need to significantly reduce military spending as well. I think those two things, above all else, need to be first addressed and planned for. Trying to deal with the other 25% while ignoring the larger 75% is ridiculous.

After an honest effort is being made for those, I'd be open for most other things. Possibly increasing taxes? Sure. I would get behind that if it at least raises it a bit on everyone, even if its raised more on the rich than others, but I would not support that burden being placed only on a single group of people. Ultimately, if I had my druthers, I would want to see a 1 or 2% sales tax placed on everything that isn't food or medication, in which that money would go DIRECTLY to an additional debt payment. This would allow us to actually begin to pay down the principle of our debt rather than continuing to just pay the interest, which would intern lower the interest payments in the long term and reduce spending.

Along with that I'd want us looking into a number of other things. Removal of waste and redundancy in the government. Reform of the tax code to simplify it, thus reducing the cost of the entire tax structure. The removal or reduction of many subsidies, be it to oil, corn, art, or science. Foreign aid expenditures, etc. And I could go on.

But I would not support either of those things...the reduction of discretionary type spending or raising taxes...until and honest effort has begun under both of those two larger sections of spending. Increasing taxes while letting the rest stay bloated is nothing but a recipe for continuing to be bloated and I don't think it would be healthy or very viable to raise the near 70% additional revenue we'd need to sustain this bloated government we have. If we raise taxes first all we're doing is giving the crack addicts on both sides the cash they need to get more of what they crave. Then somehow, stupidly, are expecting them to give up their crack. That doens't work. Additionally, I'm not in favor of pointless rinky dinky cuts like foreign aide that are nothing but a drop in a bucket and are simply a murmers show to hide the bigger issues.

I'm for a whole host of ways to deal with our financial crisis. But I'm not for kicking the can down the road by looking at minor things while ignoring the big glaring issues that are there.

If I am not mistaken

Social Security is not the issue. It is funded through a specific tax that currently is either in surplus or just slightly in the red. Which given the surplus from previous years means it is not the issue regarding todays deficits
 
Actually, it is Sangha whose focusing primarily on Social Security. If you'll actually go back and check my original post you'll notice my comment was about Entitlements as a whole, not just social security. Even when you take out Social Security, entitlements account for more spending than defense by more than 10% and still make up 1/3rd of our spending.

Now, I think its ridiculous to ignore 10 to 30 year trends of lower birth rates, lower death rates, increased life expectency combined with nearly doubling the number of people drawing from Social Security and expect that its not going to run into funding issues pretty quickly as was evident even THIS year when we ran a deficit which is why I think SS needs to be looked at...along with all other entitlements...to be reformed.

And I agree, the military is a major issue as well.

But I disagree with you regarding tax rates. As I stated, and you can look at the federal budget and do the numbers yourself or I can check another one of my posts and show you it if need be, we'd need to raise revenues by 67% over what we currently pull in to account for our current spending levels. Even nixing all of the military we'd need to raise revenues by 35% and I think you can agree that bringing Defense Spending from over 20% to 0% is unrealistic. Tax Rates, while perhaps a problem, are no where near the size of an issue as Entitlements and Defense spending.

If you want to make an argument with them being #3, sure...I could possibly expect that. But its #3 by a good ways.

No, it is you who is focuing on entitlements. It is you who is saying we MUST cut entitlements.

There is no need. We can

1) Grow the economy
2) Remove the FICA cap
3) Create a single payer UUHC health care system, and save 33% on our HC expenditures
4) Raise taxes and eliminate corporate welfare

That combo would go a long way towards solving our fiscal problem
 
The OP was about the overall tax rate. It devolved into the typical evil corporations bull****. And again...anytime y'all want to have any credibility you go after Obama for his support of and from GE. Throw his ass on the grill baby. Damned evil corporatist.

The OP is flawed from the get go. We dont pay for the same things. We dont have the same social programs. Our priorities are radically different. Our philosophy is radically different. The primary separation is that many of us think spending and taxation is too high and y'all think we should spend MORE and others should pay more in taxes. Heavy emphasis on that 'others' part.

The only people saying that this has anything to do with "evil" corps, are the rightwingers who over-react to any suggestion that we increase corporate taxes. Anf it's you who has been constantly referring to Obama in an pitiful attempt to prove the hypocrisy of the leftists who don't even support Obama
 
Hmm, I don't know how many ways I can say this or if it will ever sink in, but no one is suggesting that we address the situation solely through increased tax revenue. The situation can only be handled in a credible manner by cutting spending AND raising taxes.

If you pull out extraordinary spending like TARP and the stimulus package, it's clear that long-term expenditures like war spending and the Bush tax cuts are what's driving long-term deficits.

And neither do I. I have told him at least three times that no one is suggesting tax increases alone, but he keeps repeating that 67% number, as if someone was actually suggesting that as a solution.

He also doesn't seem to realize that there is an alternative to cutting the benefits of SS, Medicare and Medicaid. We can

1) A jobs program would put people to work, which increases tax revenues
2) Grow the economy to make the debt shrink relative to GDP
3) Create a single payer UHC health care system and cut our expenditures by as much as 33%
4) Remove the FICA cap
5) Raise corporate taxes
6) Eliminate corporate welfare
7) Make the income tax more progressive by creating new brackets above $1m/yr and tax it at a higher rate
8) Cut the military budget
 
They aren't "income tax comparison". They're a comparison of ALL taxes

And what makes you think the regional govts of europe provide no services, or less than US states. In general, they provide more

Show me that they do. Show me a reasonable comparison of all taxes we pay against all taxes that France pays for example.
 
FY2009, the US government took in >$2.1T in tax revenue.
That's PLENTY of money, for any reasonable person.
The issue, then, is spending.
 
FY2009, the US government took in >$2.1T in tax revenue.
That's PLENTY of money, for any reasonable person.
The issue, then, is spending.

Obviously it isn't enough to pay for the government that most Americans want. The issue is both spending and taxes.
 
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