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GE moving X-ray business to China

The whole free trade movement was masked as a helping hand to countries struggling economically.... it can be argued that yes, it has helped them, but not without feeding our own corporations' greed first. Free trade was America's way of exploiting laborers in other countries for next to nothing while simultaneously forcing our products on them and nearly eliminating their meager profits from exports they once had.

IMO, that's a far too harsh perspective. Indeed, former Singapore Prime Minister gives multinational corporations (MNC's) enormous credit for facilitating Singapore's rapid economic development. In his memoirs, he recounted:

General Electric (GE) set up in 1970 six different facilities for electrical and electronic products, circuit breakers and electric motors. By the late 1970s, GE was to become the largest single employer of labour in Singapore. American MNCs laid the foundations for Singapore's large high-tech electronics industry. Although we did not know it then, the electronics industry was to mop up our unemployment and turn Singapore into a major electronics exporter in the 1980s.

Source: Lee Kuan Yew, From Third World to First: The Singapore Story: 1965-2000, Singapore: Times Editions, 2000, p.85.
 
We can't keep promising tax cuts either... eventually we are going to have to pay back what we have borrowed. Yes, people need to make sacrifices, but we shouldn't sacrifice innovation and investing in our own country. The parties are trying to wage one class against the other. The government is entirely dysfunction, and that's a major problem in and of itself. We need to have a grown up talk about spending cuts and investments. Simply attacking all spending is being blind, because that's is just leading to class warfare accusations from both sides.

Iagree with you ... we only disagree on the timing of such things ... see I look back over the last 30 years and see all the times we have been promised these spending cuts, how many times we were going to take care of SS and Medicare problems, how many times we were going to get our fiscal house in order, and it's has just never happened ... after 30 years of lies, I'm not about to trust anyone telling Me .. that we will have serious spendings cuts of some undisclosed amount somewhere down the road.

show Me provable spending cuts, show me you can go to work on our broken programs and make them more efficient and less costly, revise SS and medicare so that future generations are secure, once you do this .. once you prove you can rein in this crazy spending spree you've been on ... once you do that .... then come and ask for my help via the tax increases, once I'm shown they are serious about putting our fiscal house in order, I would be more then happy to contribute to help us out of this mess.... but until they can show they are serious... then they need to make do with what they are getting ..
 
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IMO the "spending is out of control" argument is overblown. If we return to historically average tax rates, that in and of itself would stop the debt from growing. If we couple that with reasonable cuts to military spending and common sense (read -- not drastic) adjustments to entitlements, we could actually start paying down the debt. Too much of this deficit hysteria is premised on temporary spending that was necessary to blunt the impact of the worst recession since the Great Depression.
 
IMO the "spending is out of control" argument is overblown. If we return to historically average tax rates, that in and of itself would stop the debt from growing. If we couple that with reasonable cuts to military spending and common sense (read -- not drastic) adjustments to entitlements, we could actually start paying down the debt. Too much of this deficit hysteria is premised on temporary spending that was necessary to blunt the impact of the worst recession since the Great Depression.

This is a valid argument.. Some people don't want to pay more taxes, and some don't want their programs cut. The parties are pitting the two sides against each other, and not meeting much in the middle. It's up to the people to decide and the parties to follow the will of the people. The parties are just successful at holding us hostage and not fixing any of the problems.
 
According to this we come in at #4

  1. 22px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png
    Norway 0.938
  2. 22px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png
    Australia 0.937
  3. 22px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg.png
    New Zealand 0.907
  4. 22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
    United States 0.902
List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shhhhhh, if you don't BELIEVE we're first in everything, you hate America.
 
Americans have always competed very well in the past, why not now?

As mentioned, other countries are competing quite well while the living standards, compared to the Americans, are increasing.

The complaints you've outlined are not the problem, but your attitude certainly plays a part.

Did you read what I wrote at all?

No, China does not have an equal standard of livig and does use slave labor. Many countries are providing labor for pennies, and don't live anywhere near our standard.

This by 1Perry is pretty good. You might try reading it as well:

1Perry said:
It's not that so much. It's the fact that too many are taking the path of least resistance. But it's not this simple either. Far too complicated than can be covered easily.....LOL

It's far easier to simply move overseas than to do the things necessary to compete. Unfortunately when a company like Boeing attempts to do that, they are met with resistance from the government. Everyone has to give some to compete for awhile. Nobody wants to look at the long term picture.

In the long term picture, China will have to pay higher wage prices. It's simple human nature. Putting this many people to work gives them access to the outside world and they are going to demand a piece of that pie. Damn lot of good that does if all of our manufacturing is over there by then though.
 
Shhhhhh, if you don't BELIEVE we're first in everything, you hate America.

Oh yes gawd forbid.... because if you believe this country of ours is a great country and we should be proud of our accomplishments … then you are a right wing nut job .. you've got to learn to hate America to be on the left side
 
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Oh yes gawd forbid.... because if you believe this country of ours is a great country and we should be proud of our accomplishments … then you are a right wing nut job .. you've got to learn to hate America to be on the left side

No, if you insist on praising even those things we haven't done well, to help you low sense of national esteem, then you're likely a right wing nut job. People who love this country, in an educated and adult way, can be honest, and handle constructive criticism. But thanks for proving my point. :thumbs:
 
Did you read what I wrote at all?

No, China does not have an equal standard of livig and does use slave labor. Many countries are providing labor for pennies, and don't live anywhere near our standard.

This by 1Perry is pretty good. You might try reading it as well:

You should really slow down with all those facts.
 
As far as protectionism goes, the bottom line is that it doesn't work.

JObs were not outsourcing left and right before 1995 and our trade deficit got even worse after WTO was enacted. So Perhaps you are wrong.


Sure, you can slap tariffs on foreign products to make domestic products more competitive -- in this country.
But that will only result in other countries slapping tariffs on American products.

1. We are in a trade deficit. So it really doesn't matter if China slaps tariffs on our goods. "Oh please China don't impose tariffs on goods you barely buy, no please don't."

2.China pays their workers 2-4 dollars a day. Do you really think someone who makes 60-120 dollars a month can afford to buy American goods. I seriously doubt they can even buy goods made by outsourced companies in China and Chinese made goods are cheaper. Sure if we exported dollar tree crap to China then the average Chinese worker making 2-4 bucks a day could afford American goods and thus would buy more American made goods.

.
Beyond that, offshoring of jobs isn't the main driver of unemployment. Automation is the main driver. If you have a Chinese company employing 1000 drones to assemble widgets, and you impose a tariff to move production here, an American company isn't going to pay 1000 people to make the same widgets. They may employ 50 to run the automated assembly line.

50 employed Americans are better than no employed Americans and 50 employed Americans is certainly better than a 1000 employed foreigners.
 
I think he'll have more experience next term. :mrgreen:

Yes, but so will the American peoople.

Recall when Barack Obama said running a presidential campaign was good administrative experience?

That was his experience, and he was certainly exaggerating his role.
 
China does not have an equal standard of livig and does use slave labor.

which makes the promotion of mr immelt to jobs czar all the more bizarre and weirdly inexplicable

oh well

as for china, no single issue has exposed this white house for the collection of amateurs and neophytes it is than its humiliating dealings with the cutthroats in china

Amateur Hour at the White House - Council on Foreign Relations

US Foreign Policy: Obama's Nice Guy Act Gets Him Nowhere on the World Stage - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

America's Rodney Dangerfield Moment - Michael Hirsh - NationalJournal.com

Obama's economic view is rejected on world stage - Boston.com

them's some biggies, baby---leslie gelb from cfr, der spiegel, natl journal, the gray lady herself

saying things like: amateur hour, nice guy act gets him nowhere, rodney dangerfield moment...

how embarrassing

don't you demand base competence from those you choose to be your leaders, libs?
 
Did you read what I wrote at all?

Of course I did and I responded. Did you not read what I wrote??

No, China does not have an equal standard of livig and does use slave labor. Many countries are providing labor for pennies, and don't live anywhere near our standard.

Where did anyone claim China has the same standard of living? Canada can compete with China and does. No one here is complaining of trade with China, nor is Australia. In fact I don;t here it from anyone but Americans.
 
Where did anyone claim China has the same standard of living? Canada can compete with China and does. No one here is complaining of trade with China, nor is Australia. In fact I don;t here it from anyone but Americans.

Scaling wall over Canada's trade complaint against China - thestar.com

http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=123890

China Free Trade A Joke Bullying Spurs Auto Parts Complaint - Joan Van Ark - Zimbio

Canada threatens WTO complaint for China pork ban - Economic Times
 
Of course I did and I responded. Did you not read what I wrote??


Maybe you should read slower. Let me repost:

Boo said:
Compete? If we were speaking of innovation and invention, I would agree with you that we can. But we're not. We're talking about salary for that. To compete in that arena, we must take less, less pay, less benefits, less good living. I'm asking if we really want to compete in that way?


Where did anyone claim China has the same standard of living? Canada can compete with China and does. No one here is complaining of trade with China, nor is Australia. In fact I don;t here it from anyone but Americans.

Well, . . . we're competeing with China. Maybe you didn't know that. Canada has UHC. This is important.

However, you're still missing the point. We don't want to compete with them concerning WAGES. They pay much less.
 
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Perhaps it is, I've become a bit jaded throughout my college career taking so many international relations courses at a pretty liberal university (;

Given time constraints, among many other factors, there are limits to what can be covered in college courses. The long-term trend has been toward a narrowing of content and specialization (benefits and drawbacks exist) to the extent that there is a genuine risk of oversimplification. One sees that not just at liberal institutions, but generally across higher education. IMO, the development of critical thinking skills, ability to find relevant information (important in business, if one goes that route), receptiveness to examining ideas objectively, and desire to keep learning can more than compensate for the narrowing/specialization trend.

To be sure, there is little doubt that some firms have less than ideal motives when expanding into developing countries. Some firms do try to take "short cuts" to economic profits and widely-reported scandals (Enron, Countrywide Mortgage, etc.) bear this out. However, it is those firms that create long-term disadvantages in pursuing short cuts. They fail to develop a sustainable operation in their host country and their credibility erodes. In contrast, firms that demonstrate reliability, take into consideration the unique needs of their host countries and people, etc., build strong reputations. Strong reputations can be a source of sustainable competitive advantage in branding, capital access, and recruiting/retention, among other areas. It is not easy for rivals to imitate those reputations and it requires significant investment (financial/time) to cultivate such reputations. As a result, that source of differentiation can lead to higher economic profits.

Liberalized trade does not have an equal impact on every country. Those that have bad factor conditions (lack of natural resources, lack of sufficiently skilled workers, etc.), suboptimal demand conditions, weak firm rivalry, and an absence of supporting industries can find such trade very disadvantageous. That's why many developing countries protect "infant industries" until those industries gain the ability to compete with international peers. At the same time, if a country is strong in at least one of those four areas, it can leverage trade to improve its relative competitive position. In short, just as with most other human activities, "one-size-fits-all" perspectives do not apply to trade. Instead, nuance, balance, proportion, probabilities, and trade-offs apply. In the longer-term trade can be mutually beneficial with net benefits, but some drawbacks will always exist.
 

1Perry, these disputes are going on all the time between trading nations and we've had similar disputes with the US , our greatest trading partner for several years.

Trade agreements only give you a format in which to work that can settle disagreements more easily. It does eliminate them.
 
We're talking about salary for that. To compete in that arena, we must take less, less pay, less benefits, less good living. I'm asking if we really want to compete in that way?

That's just goofy. TYou do not have to compete in that way.

It's already been explained that other countries are competing quite well with China, and I named them, and no labor laws were changed. We deal from our strengths and they deal from theirs. Thats just the way trade works..
However, you're still missing the point. We don't want to compete with them concerning WAGES. They pay much less.


I'm going to say this just once more, ok? You do not have to compete with lower wages. But it is important that the population receives a proper education in which the real world is involved, and not the usual craziness that's been churning out liberal airheads for the past generation or more. It then takes another decade of wasted time to un-learn that stuff.
 
Of course I did and I responded. Did you not read what I wrote??



Where did anyone claim China has the same standard of living? Canada can compete with China and does. No one here is complaining of trade with China, nor is Australia. In fact I don;t here it from anyone but Americans.

I am 100% for free trade, including free trade with China. Unfortunately, however, China has engaged in long-term currency manipulation that enhances their existing wage advantage. The main advantage we have is in research and innovation. Unfortunately, China is incredibly lax when it comes to intellectual property rights enforcement. Under these circumstances I think that "free trade" is a bit of a misnomer.
 
I am 100% for free trade, including free trade with China. Unfortunately, however, China has engaged in long-term currency manipulation that enhances their existing wage advantage. The main advantage we have is in research and innovation. Unfortunately, China is incredibly lax when it comes to intellectual property rights enforcement. Under these circumstances I think that "free trade" is a bit of a misnomer.

And we continue to fight that, and we are doing so, But the trade should continue with push/pull benefits and responses.

We are making progress in these areas and it is not as quick as some would like. But it is a process and we have to understand that.
 
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