• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

Belgarath said:
Easy there, grandmother. Don't want to give yourself a heart attack:blink: just kidding but seriously though. 1. I would not argue that there's no different between Democrat and Republican. They both have very nice and very different ideas, they just both are obsessed with their fantasy lands where economics and politics follow ideals and not reality, and they have their head stuck in the sand with regards to reality. 2. The problem with supporting a 3rd political party is that the electoral system guarantees they won't be elected President. The Tea Party is already proving that 3rd parties can have an effect in Congress, but I think without they're being elected in high numbers to the Supreme Court, which I don't see happening, or getting the Presidency, they just don't have the power or the influence to make good police occur. 3. Just because someone endorses the policies of a Democrat or Republican doesn't mean they are automatically shoving the debt onto future generations. Look at the end of the Clinton administration when there was a surplus: good things can happen out of the two party system. It simply takes good leadership and consistent economic policy. Have faith :)
Click to expand...

You wouldnt argue that there is no difference because you have a connection to one and an ideology that I dont have. I see them both as they are. Both parties are fiscal trainwrecks. I have credited Clinton with being a very good president...primarily because he was skilled at working with both parties. Clinton signed legislation given to him by congress. Congress gets the credit, Clinton gets the glory. No problem there. Wouldst that we return to such a time.

My heart is just fine. I only wish more people would find theirs. Finding their balls (figuratively or otherwise) would also be a nice first start.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
Okay...But I've expressed that I am concerned with the debt... In other threads, I expressed my support for the comprehensive plan that Boehner walked away from that would have cut about $2.8 trillion over the next decade and cut loopholes and simplified taxes to raise another $1.2 trillion in revenues. There was the potential for true reform there - reform created when government is split and therefore giving each side a say in how these reforms would work.

Simply writing, "Congress must pass a balanced budget" on a piece of paper isn't reform. It's words on paper.

If it didn't work in Texas, why would it work in Washington?

Unless you believe that 100% of the population will suddenly begin voting 100% Republican, why should all reforms only come from one side of the political scale?

Why would you pass a "plan" that essentially only puts us right back into this mess six months from now instead of one that creates real changes in the way our federal government works?

I would argue because this is more about political victory than it is about reform.

Democrats wanted a clean debt ceiling raise (as it has been done by both sides many times regardless of who was in the White House). Republicans said "No."

Okay, Democrats say, fine we'll attach spending cuts to the measure, but let's have some revenue increases as well so we can close this financial gap. Republicans said "No."

Okay, Democrats say, fine we'll propose just spending cuts, but let's make sure it goes through 2013 so we don't fall down this hole again in a few months. Republicans say "No."

Can you see how someone on the other side begins to think this is only scoring political points when our side has caved already on so many things?

The silliness is that one side claims to be the only ones proposing to do anything about it, when proposals from the other side have been rejected, walked away from, and ignored. And the simple fact of the matter is this: the House HAS to pass something that will make it through the Senate and get signed by the President. They do NOT get to do it 100% their way. The moment they recognize that is the moment this actually gets solved - at least to the point that it prevents the markets from continuing to fall (nearly 200 points yesterday, nearly 70 points at the moment of this writing today)...

Finally, if our credit rating as a nation goes down and it forces interest rates up, that only ADDS to the debt. A .6% increase in our interest rate would result in an additional $1 Trillion being added to the national debt over the next decade. Not to mention that if people lose retirement funds due to market hits and pay more interest on existing loans (all loans are tied to the rate our government pays), they'll spend less and the economy will slow even further, which will lower revenues coming into government, only making the debt grow even more.

That's why this is frustrating. My side has been far from perfect in this debate. I'll admit that. But when you think that you hold all the cards when you only hold about 1/3 of them, you look foolish and a bit delusional. And that delusion is starting to look dangerous to the well-being of everyone - not just the government.
Click to expand...

I have said on numerous occasions...they need to mandate a balanced budget amendment. They need to have a clearly defined and legislated plan to achieve debt reduction and they will need to raise taxes until that is accomplished. I dont know of anyone that thinks saying 'poof! a balanced budget' is going to solve anything. Of course it requires a clearly defined plan. Unfortunately we have partisan politicians invested in reelection and preservation of party and not in doing whats right for the country. And lets not let the citizens off the hook. The citizens are just fine bitching about politics...as long as Sammy is slipping them that free cheese.
Massive spending cuts across the board. Sundowned tax increases specifically targeted to pay down the debt. Incentivize industry to bring back jobs. Bring labor and industry back to the table for realistic negotions to rebuild our industrial base. Not simple. Doable. Necessary.
 
AdamT said:
Wouldn't it be nice if that were true! Unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. Take Texas for example. They have a balanced budget amendment and they were staring a $27 BILLION deficit in the face (how 'bout them fiscal conservatives!). Obviously they had to cut $27 billion in spending, right?

Not so much. Sure, they cut a lot of spending, but they also borrowed from their own rainy day fund and forced local governments all over the state to do the same. In essence it was just an accounting trick to allow the state to get around the balanced budget requirement. It was still deficit spending. Many other states have done the same thing (see Minnesota, for example).
Click to expand...

States get around the balanced budget requirement by issuing bonds which are a form of.....gasp....debt
 
VanceMack said:
Then shame on the citizens from the state of Texas. Personally...I believe balancing the federal budget will be much more do-able when they get out of the business of saving the planet. The fed should not be providing social services. That responsibility should belong to the individual citizens, their families, charitable organizations, and where needed local and state governments. The fed should not be involved in education. every state has a dept of education. same goes with transportation. Pay down the debt, return the responsibilities to the states, let the states be beholden to their citizens.
Click to expand...

Shaming them won't change the fact that the requirement for a balanced budget is easily gotten around. It doesn't prevent debt.
 
VanceMack said:
I have said on numerous occasions...they need to mandate a balanced budget amendment. They need to have a clearly defined and legislated plan to achieve debt reduction and they will need to raise taxes until that is accomplished. I dont know of anyone that thinks saying 'poof! a balanced budget' is going to solve anything. Of course it requires a clearly defined plan. Unfortunately we have partisan politicians invested in reelection and preservation of party and not in doing whats right for the country. And lets not let the citizens off the hook. The citizens are just fine bitching about politics...as long as Sammy is slipping them that free cheese.
Massive spending cuts across the board. Sundowned tax increases specifically targeted to pay down the debt. Incentivize industry to bring back jobs. Bring labor and industry back to the table for realistic negotions to rebuild our industrial base. Not simple. Doable. Necessary.
Click to expand...

Actually, aside from the amendment part (which I only oppose out of practicality - it will take a LOT of time and as shown in Texas, doesn't necessarily accomplish anything), I really don't see anything you've got there that I would completely disagree with. I'd be willing to bet that you and I could sit across from one another and come up with something that would work - even if we each had to give up some things we really wouldn't want to.

I just wish politicians would do that. For a moment, I thought that was happening between Obama and Boehner and when word began about the "Grand Compromise", I thought we might be onto something. I wasn't necessarily thrilled with all of the potentialities, but the thought that something might happen that could really change what we're doing - not just in terms of spending, but in terms of how the parties function with one another - was kind of exciting.

Alas, politics as usual reared it's ugly head.

There was, to me, a shot at something, if not great, then at least fairly remarkable in politics. Point-tallying, instead, became the rule for the day.

Oh, and this just from a few minutes ago:

Tide turning against House GOP, which delays debt ceiling vote - TheHill.com

Boehner's bill is still struggling in the House.
 
Last edited:
sangha said:
States get around the balanced budget requirement by issuing bonds which are a form of.....gasp....debt
Click to expand...

That, and they borrow from their own programs and trust funds. Of course that borrowed money has to be repayed, so it is again ... gasp ... debt.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
Actually, aside from the amendment part (which I only oppose out of practicality - it will take a LOT of time and as shown in Texas, doesn't necessarily accomplish anything), I really don't see anything you've got there that I would completely disagree with. I'd be willing to bet that you and I could sit across from one another and come up with something that would work - even if we each had to give up some things we really wouldn't want to.

I just wish politicians would do that. For a moment, I thought that was happening between Obama and Boehner and when word began about the "Grand Compromise", I thought we might be onto something. I wasn't necessarily thrilled with all of the potentialities, but the thought that something might happen that could really change what we're doing - not just in terms of spending, but in terms of how the parties function with one another - was kind of exciting.

Alas, politics as usual reared it's ugly head.

There was, to me, a shot at something, if not great, then at least fairly remarkable in politics. Point-tallying, instead, became the rule for the day.

Oh, and this just from a few minutes ago:

Tide turning against House GOP, which delays debt ceiling vote - TheHill.com

Boehner's bill is still struggling in the House.
Click to expand...

Honestly? I believe MOST of us want what is best for the country...we just have different visions of how to accomplish it. I dont believe we can say that about either party in congress. Everyone in congress has painted themselves into their own respective corners.
 
VanceMack said:
Honestly? I believe MOST of us want what is best for the country...we just have different visions of how to accomplish it. I dont believe we can say that about either party in congress. Everyone in congress has painted themselves into their own respective corners.
Click to expand...

It's the danger of beginning a negotiation and starting with what you won't do. If you allow yourself no flexibility, you perceive any compromise as breaking instead of bending.
 
danarhea said:
Why would you pass a "plan" that essentially only puts us right back into this mess six months from now instead of one that creates real changes in the way our federal government works?
Click to expand...

to make it a campaign issue; there will be another crisis in six months so that they can "hold the line" again and use it in their campaigns.

a six month deal will not calm the markets, and it might not be enough to avoid losing our AAA rating. this makes me very angry. i hope that it makes a lot of other independents angry, as well.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
It's the danger of beginning a negotiation and starting with what you won't do. If you allow yourself no flexibility, you perceive any compromise as breaking instead of bending.
Click to expand...

Its the problem of all politicians bent on ideology vs practicality. In a perfect world we wouldnt be in this mess. We are. Everyone is going to have to suck it up to fix the problem. There is no 'fair'. I'm not a big fan of increasing taxes. I am comfortably in the top 10%. It will impact me. I understand that. I'd rather pick TODAY...right now...and start working towards a solution than continue to pretend its going to fix itself. At the same time I have worked hard for our level of success. Im not just going to happily sit by while they raise my taxes if all that is going to do is continue to enable fiscal irresponsibiltiy. So...Massive cuts. I'll pay more than my 'fair' share (lord how I hate that word). Sorry poor folks...you are going to feel this too. But purposefully...with reason and intent...we CAN fix the problem. Whether our politicians ever get past the drive to be reelected and stop putting their party before country...well...jury is still WAY out on that...but I wouldnt place any bets on it.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
In other threads, I expressed my support for the comprehensive plan that Boehner walked away from that would have cut about $2.8 trillion over the next decade and cut loopholes and simplified taxes to raise another $1.2 trillion in revenues.
Click to expand...

with all due respect, that was a terrible plan

both the cuts and especially the tax increases amounted to no more than vision statements

washington has some experience with tax reform---it can take the better part of a presidency, occupying the uppermost of a president's focus

rewriting the tax code is almost kabalistic, and the details are everything

no, america knows that our budget needs fundamental reform, indeed, we have reached a critical stage

and we will have no more of this pass-it-so-you-can-know-it necromancy

IT IS BEYOND IRRESPONSIBLE AT THIS POINT TO ADVANCE THIS GOVT ANY ADDITIONAL CREDIT ON A LONGTERM BASIS

not until it first makes the necessary fixes in its foundations

Why would you pass a "plan" that essentially only puts us right back into this mess six months from now instead of one that creates real changes in the way our federal government works?
Click to expand...

real changes?

please
 
The Barbarian said:
Hell …. the only house of government to pass any bill …. has been the Cap Cut and Balance legislation …. so the republicans have done their job,
Click to expand...
Yep, they've done their job alright, sock it to the American people, the elderly and those on Social Security, all the time protecting the tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations. That's their job alright, but I wonder why so many conservatives support it, unless they are "wealthy"?

It's like chickens rooting for Colonel Sanders!

I guess what we should do is to urge the senate to follow the lead of democrats like Pelosi..... and the health care bill … you remember .. she said “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy. “
Click to expand...
The whole country (as well as the Democrats in Congress) know what it is in the bill, and we don't like it - Boehner and the whole lot of GOP Congressmen are ignorant to waste their time on a worthless piece of crap knowing that it is going nowhere - (except in the minds of some ignorant Republicans who think it is all that).

Well lets just go ahead and pass the Cap Cut and Balance bill … hell don't have to worry about reading it or nothing like that .. we can find out what's in it later .. there problem solved .. the way the democrats like it solved.
Click to expand...
Like I said, everyone knows what it is in the bill - maybe you should make yourself familiar with it - you'll only like it if you are rich or own a corporation, or if you are a good sheeple.
 
so....

thus far, Republicans have put forth two plans to raise the debt ceiling.

and Democrats have put forth none.

The Gang of Six put forward a plan to have a plan,

and Obama claims to have a secret plan in his head, but won't show it to anyone.




got it.
 
cpwill said:
so....

thus far, Republicans have put forth two plans to raise the debt ceiling.

and Democrats have put forth none.
Click to expand...
A piece of crap if you ask me. Who in their right mind would want to go through this crap again in 6 months? The proposal the GOP has produced is nothing but a piece of crap and I'm glad the Democrats in the Senate are going to treat it as such.

The Gang of Six put forward a plan to have a plan,
Click to expand...
Be reasonable, do you think the moron Tea Party Congressmen are going to agree to anything the Democrats put forth? Ha,ha, if you answered yes, I guess you haven't been listening to their rhetoric.

and Obama claims to have a secret plan in his head, but won't show it to anyone.
Click to expand...
Obama tried to negotiate a plan that would go beyond 2012 - the GOP is deceitfully trying to squeeze by on a mere figure that will need to be upped again in 6 months.
Only morons would want to go through what the country is going through again in 6 months, but I guess if that is the only way you can posture politically, then that is what you go for - and at the same time, let's not expect the wealthy to pay their fair share of taxes - that might just incite them into voting Democrat!

got it.
Click to expand...
I don't think you do, but then, I don't expect conservatives to, they believe what their leaders are telling them.
 
cpwill said:
so....

thus far, Republicans have put forth two plans to raise the debt ceiling.

and Democrats have put forth none.

The Gang of Six put forward a plan to have a plan,

and Obama claims to have a secret plan in his head, but won't show it to anyone.

got it.
Click to expand...

because when the music stops, whoever has the most plans wins!!! :roll:
 
Yes, clearly it is all about quantity.

Obama should immediately put out 20 plans that have no chance of passing both houses to demonstrate his superiority.
 
mertex said:
Yep, they've done their job alright, sock it to the American people, the elderly and those on Social Security, all the time protecting the tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations. That's their job alright, but I wonder why so many conservatives support it, unless they are "wealthy"?

It's like chickens rooting for Colonel Sanders!


The whole country (as well as the Democrats in Congress) know what it is in the bill, and we don't like it - Boehner and the whole lot of GOP Congressmen are ignorant to waste their time on a worthless piece of crap knowing that it is going nowhere - (except in the minds of some ignorant Republicans who think it is all that).


Like I said, everyone knows what it is in the bill - maybe you should make yourself familiar with it - you'll only like it if you are rich or own a corporation, or if you are a good sheeple.
Click to expand...

okay ... so I guess we go with the senate plan ......... oppps sorry they don't have one ..

Time to go with the Preisdent's plan .... oppps sorry he doesn't have one either ....

So lets see ... what is it we are suppose to go with ?? Times getting kinda short ... and not one single Democratic plan .... laughs .... but of course ... it's the Republican's fault ... But that is the way of the liberal ... no plan of their own .... just tell the American people how bad the other sides plan is .. .
 
The Barbarian said:
okay ... so I guess we go with the senate plan ......... oppps sorry they don't have one ..

Time to go with the Preisdent's plan .... oppps sorry he doesn't have one either ....

So lets see ... what is it we are suppose to go with ?? Times getting kinda short ... and not one single Democratic plan .... laughs .... but of course ... it's the Republican's fault ... But that is the way of the liberal ... no plan of their own .... just tell the American people how bad the other sides plan is .. .
Click to expand...

Because when the country defaults and the economy crashes, whoever had the most plans wins!! :roll:
 
The Barbarian said:
okay ... so I guess we go with the senate plan ......... oppps sorry they don't have one ..

Time to go with the Preisdent's plan .... oppps sorry he doesn't have one either ....

So lets see ... what is it we are suppose to go with ?? Times getting kinda short ... and not one single Democratic plan .... laughs .... but of course ... it's the Republican's fault ... But that is the way of the liberal ... no plan of their own .... just tell the American people how bad the other sides plan is .. .
Click to expand...

I guess in your opinion a bad dream is still better that no plan? Wasn't it the same way with health care? The Rightos agreed that it needed to be reformed, but they had no viable plan to demonstrate that the demo plan was worst than theirs? Didn't they blame the high raising health costs on incompetent doctors being sued for malpratice? Sorry, cold sweats, and I was regressing.

Was Boehner's plan a plan or a dream? Or, did it continue to rubber stamp half the problem? Not making everyone pay their share, no revenue coming in from those that benefit the most from this country, the super corporations and oil.

I didn't read this fantsy literature, but was it squacking about passing a balanced budget admendment?
 
AdamT said:
Yes, clearly it is all about quantity.

Obama should immediately put out 20 plans that have no chance of passing both houses to demonstrate his superiority.
Click to expand...

ANY plan. ANY plan that indicates what hard choices he is willing to make. ANYTHING that would at least let us know where the man STANDS and serve as an unmovable starting point for negotiation.

It's not about high quantity. But it is at least about showing up. So Far Republicans sent up one bill, it died in the Senate, and so they have sent another, which has died in the Senate. The Republican Leader in the House and Democrat Leader in the Senate went to the White House with a bipartisan deal they'd hammered out between them, and the White House killed it.

So, thus far, Republicans have given us two plans, and Democrats have killed both of them while producing nothing. that's not Governing. That's footstamping and holding ones' breath until you get your way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom