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House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

No, it doesn't. I think that they believe in the power of the constitution so much, that adding an amendment is the proper way to go about what they are trying to do.(Balance the budget) as you can see, congress cannot control its self on the spending, they must be forced into it.

The constitution is the only thing in this county that has a greater power than the congress, so that is the vehichle they must use.

The problem is that that strategy, while possible functional, will never actually work. You'll never get the support necessary to get the Amendment. What we need is for the politicians at Capitol Hill to stop bowing to peer pressure from their party or peers, and start actually creating a debt ceiling plan that has a chance of working. Someone needs to start a fad- Actually working to get a living, instead of filibustering and throwing insults at each other across the room :O
 
No, it doesn't. I think that they believe in the power of the constitution so much, that adding an amendment is the proper way to go about what they are trying to do.(Balance the budget) as you can see, congress cannot control its self on the spending, they must be forced into it.

The constitution is the only thing in this county that has a greater power than the congress, so that is the vehichle they must use.

In other words, it's an abdication of responsibility.

But again, the main objection to it is simply that it's a really bad idea. What do you think would have happened during WWII, for example, if the government wasn't able to borrow because it had tied its own hands with a constitutional balanced budget amendment? One of two things would have happened: a) Congress would have found a way around the constitutional limitation, thus making it a limitation in name only, or b) the limitation would have been effective and there's a good chance Hitler would have prevailed.

Neither option is particularly appealing.
 
Certainly. But doesn't it strike you as odd that this group has been preaching the sanctity of the Constitution, when at every turn their answer seems to be to amend the Constitution?

No. It does not strike me as odd at all. A respect for the rule of law does not imply that there should be no new laws. If it strikes you as odd then it is likely due to some faulty premise of yours.
 
What do you think would have happened during WWII, for example, if the government wasn't able to borrow because it had tied its own hands with a constitutional balanced budget amendment?

Section 6. The Congress may waive the provisions of this article for any fiscal year in which a declaration of war is in effect. The provisions of this article may be waived for any fiscal year in which the United States is engaged in military conflict which causes an imminent and serious military threat to national security and is so declared by a joint resolution, adopted by a majority of the whole number of each House, which becomes law.

House and Senate Balanced Budget Amendments | The Heritage Foundation
 
OMG, VanceMack!

That's exactly what the President's initially debt limit proposal would have done! $4 TRILLION in spending cuts, $1 TRILLION in revenue not by taxing anyone individually, but by closing tax loopholes. Now, I understand the uncertainty of most convervatives that any new revenues wouldn't go towards paying down the debt and, thus, reducing the deficit, but part of being good fiscal stewards is not spending more than you take it. However, that alone won't cut into the deficit. In order to have real deficit reduction, you have to pay down on your debts. But as has already been stated over and over and over again, the country is broke (for all practical purposes). Thus, the question I've asked folks over and over again has been how do you pay down your debt in a meaningful way if you don't have any additional revenue coming in?

You can cut billions from the budget each year, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the trillions this country owes. The only way to significantly pay down the debt and reduct the deficit over time is to cut spending AND generate revenue. Otherwise, using spending cuts alone we'll never get to any level of fiscal sanity for decades! In other words, we won't be looking at just a lost decade, i.e., Japan. We'll be looking at DECADES at the rate the Tea Party and some Republicans are going in their stubborness and unwillingness to see reason.

Unless Im mistaken, the president proposed ideas without an actual proposal. There are now two proposals on the deck. Both sides are going to have to eat it and do what is right for the country and neither side is willing to do it because all they REALLY care about is reelection. Republicans cant bear to go back to their constituents and say...yep...we raised taxes. Democrats cant bear to go to theirs and say yep, we massively cut entitlement programs. We have a 2 foot gaping hole in the bottom of our boat, and both sides are arguing about which is the best 2 inch cork to plug the leak.

I dont WANT the GOP to agree to tax increases...not without MANDATED and set in stone legislation that enforces real cuts and directs the paying down of the debt. This fear of passage of a balanced budget amendment is reprehensible. Close every loophole...Im fine with that. Raise taxes on the wealthy...again...good to go. But before you do, do a top down review and gut federal spending. None of this "we managed to find a bi partisan way to cut part of the deficit spending" bull****.
 
When the party politicians have wrecklessly spent the country into a...what...now 15.5 trillion dolar hole...maybe its time to consider an amendment that forces responsibility. They shouldnt HAVE to...but both parties have demonstrated why it is necessary. Someday you might have children. THEY might have jobs. THEIR children are going to have to pay for congresses stupidity. You explain to them why you just sat back and encouraged the same wreckless stupidity.

A Balanced Budget Amendment won't work.

For instance, what do you do if - due to an economic downturn, revenues aren't what they were projected for a given budget year? Who gets cut?

What would Roosevelt have done during World War II if this were part of the Constitution?

What are the penalties and against whom if the budget isn't balanced?

If there is a surplus, where does it go?

There are far too many questions to simply state in the Constitution that Congress must balance the budget each year and pretend that solves everything.
 
A Balanced Budget Amendment won't work.

For instance, what do you do if - due to an economic downturn, revenues aren't what they were projected for a given budget year? Who gets cut?

What would Roosevelt have done during World War II if this were part of the Constitution?

What are the penalties and against whom if the budget isn't balanced?

If there is a surplus, where does it go?

There are far too many questions to simply state in the Constitution that Congress must balance the budget each year and pretend that solves everything.

Try reading the actual proposals.

My biggest problem with it is the dependence on GDP. GDP is an estimate and can be easily manipulated.
 
A Balanced Budget Amendment won't work.

For instance, what do you do if - due to an economic downturn, revenues aren't what they were projected for a given budget year? Who gets cut?

What would Roosevelt have done during World War II if this were part of the Constitution?

What are the penalties and against whom if the budget isn't balanced?

If there is a surplus, where does it go?

There are far too many questions to simply state in the Constitution that Congress must balance the budget each year and pretend that solves everything.

Do you realize that many states operate on a balanced budget and do just fine? There are built in provisions for emergency spending. The requirement is that they tax appropriately to cover said spending for example...when Bush took us to war, there should not have been added debt, they should have raised the tax requirments the following year to pay for the expenditures. Where budget surpluses occur, the states offer rebates or have voter referenedums on investing the surplus. It is absolutely doable. I am already at the grandparent stage. Quite frankly Im repulsed that my grandchildren and greathgrandchildren will be saddled with such an enormous debt because we were too irresponsible and weak to demand that we pay our way.
 
Ha,ha, is that the conservative spin?:lol:

Then I guess we can consider the Stimulus a bipartisan vote, and the conservatives need to stop whining about it - they voted for it!

8 repub senators voted for the stimulus bill
 
No. It does not strike me as odd at all. A respect for the rule of law does not imply that there should be no new laws. If it strikes you as odd then it is likely due to some faulty premise of yours.

It strikes me odd that people want to change the law they claim to love and respect. We're not talking about respect for "the rule of law". We're talking about respect for the constution, which is about much more than the rule of law
 
Do you realize that many states operate on a balanced budget and do just fine?

Wouldn't it be nice if that were true! Unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. Take Texas for example. They have a balanced budget amendment and they were staring a $27 BILLION deficit in the face (how 'bout them fiscal conservatives!). Obviously they had to cut $27 billion in spending, right?

Not so much. Sure, they cut a lot of spending, but they also borrowed from their own rainy day fund and forced local governments all over the state to do the same. In essence it was just an accounting trick to allow the state to get around the balanced budget requirement. It was still deficit spending. Many other states have done the same thing (see Minnesota, for example).
 
Do you realize that many states operate on a balanced budget and do just fine? There are built in provisions for emergency spending. The requirement is that they tax appropriately to cover said spending for example...when Bush took us to war, there should not have been added debt, they should have raised the tax requirments the following year to pay for the expenditures. Where budget surpluses occur, the states offer rebates or have voter referenedums on investing the surplus. It is absolutely doable. I am already at the grandparent stage. Quite frankly Im repulsed that my grandchildren and greathgrandchildren will be saddled with such an enormous debt because we were too irresponsible and weak to demand that we pay our way.

I am bothered a great deal by the debt as well, but an amendment to the Constitution that says "you must balance the budget" isn't going to do much unless it is clearly drawn out - basically like a law would be.

Here's how well Texas's balanced budget amendment did for them:

3rd worst deficit in the country by budget.

State Budget Gaps: How Does Your State Rank?
 
Per the definition of the word "bipartisan" his statement was accurate. You have to change the definition of the word to make his statement a lie.

ridiculous...what is the definition of bipartisan SUPPORT? he lied, you know it, and so does everyone else. he purposely used those words to indicate that there was dem support for the bill.....when there was not. 5 votes of 190 or whatever it is is NOT dem support.
 
I am bothered a great deal by the debt as well, but an amendment to the Constitution that says "you must balance the budget" isn't going to do much unless it is clearly drawn out - basically like a law would be.

Here's how well Texas's balanced budget amendment did for them:

3rd worst deficit in the country by budget.

State Budget Gaps: How Does Your State Rank?

Then shame on the citizens from the state of Texas. Personally...I believe balancing the federal budget will be much more do-able when they get out of the business of saving the planet. The fed should not be providing social services. That responsibility should belong to the individual citizens, their families, charitable organizations, and where needed local and state governments. The fed should not be involved in education. every state has a dept of education. same goes with transportation. Pay down the debt, return the responsibilities to the states, let the states be beholden to their citizens.
 
Then shame on the citizens from the state of Texas. Personally...I believe balancing the federal budget will be much more do-able when they get out of the business of saving the planet. The fed should not be providing social services. That responsibility should belong to the individual citizens, their families, charitable organizations, and where needed local and state governments. The fed should not be involved in education. every state has a dept of education. same goes with transportation. Pay down the debt, return the responsibilities to the states, let the states be beholden to their citizens.

Fortunately the vast majority of Americans think otherwise.
 
Wouldn't it be nice if that were true! Unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. Take Texas for example. They have a balanced budget amendment and they were staring a $27 BILLION deficit in the face (how 'bout them fiscal conservatives!). Obviously they had to cut $27 billion in spending, right?

Not so much. Sure, they cut a lot of spending, but they also borrowed from their own rainy day fund and forced local governments all over the state to do the same. In essence it was just an accounting trick to allow the state to get around the balanced budget requirement. It was still deficit spending. Many other states have done the same thing (see Minnesota, for example).

Each state should be beholden to their citizens. texas obviously has some work to do. However every state on that list is a piker when compared to the feds fiscal irresponsibility.

I repeat...shame on us and shame on ANY of you that are so damned irresponsible that you endorse continuing to push our debt off on our grandchildren and great grandchildren. Me...I'm pissed. You should be too. But hey...if you want to continue to dump our irresponsibility on future generations...just keep voting dem and republican. Keep pretending theres a dimes worth of difference in the two major parties. Keep pretending one side is more responsible than the other for accumulating debt or that continuing this fiscal stupidity is someday somehow all going to magically make itself all better.
 
Fortunately the vast majority of Americans think otherwise.

yes...fortunately. We are 15.5 trillion in debt and continuing to climb...We are so fortunate we are just dying in our self congratulation and good 'fortune'.
 
Fight, GOP. Fight. Keep fighting Obama. DO NOT COOPERATE WITH OBAMA. NEVER.
 
Each state should be beholden to their citizens. texas obviously has some work to do. However every state on that list is a piker when compared to the feds fiscal irresponsibility.

I repeat...shame on us and shame on ANY of you that are so damned irresponsible that you endorse continuing to push our debt off on our grandchildren and great grandchildren. Me...I'm pissed. You should be too. But hey...if you want to continue to dump our irresponsibility on future generations...just keep voting dem and republican. Keep pretending theres a dimes worth of difference in the two major parties. Keep pretending one side is more responsible than the other for accumulating debt or that continuing this fiscal stupidity is someday somehow all going to magically make itself all better.

Easy there, grandmother. Don't want to give yourself a heart attack:blink: just kidding but seriously though. 1. I would not argue that there's no different between Democrat and Republican. They both have very nice and very different ideas, they just both are obsessed with their fantasy lands where economics and politics follow ideals and not reality, and they have their head stuck in the sand with regards to reality. 2. The problem with supporting a 3rd political party is that the electoral system guarantees they won't be elected President. The Tea Party is already proving that 3rd parties can have an effect in Congress, but I think without they're being elected in high numbers to the Supreme Court, which I don't see happening, or getting the Presidency, they just don't have the power or the influence to make good police occur. 3. Just because someone endorses the policies of a Democrat or Republican doesn't mean they are automatically shoving the debt onto future generations. Look at the end of the Clinton administration when there was a surplus: good things can happen out of the two party system. It simply takes good leadership and consistent economic policy. Have faith :)
 
Fight, GOP. Fight. Keep fighting Obama. DO NOT COOPERATE WITH OBAMA. NEVER.

You have not a thing to worried about in terms of your party deciding to attack the President..... unless of course you actually love America and its people and are willing to crash the ship of state upon the rocks just so you can be a rabid GOP partisan and blame the captain.

You will probably get your wish.
 
Fight, GOP. Fight. Keep fighting Obama. DO NOT COOPERATE WITH OBAMA. NEVER.

Keeping fighting, GOP. Screw America over, force us to default, keep the unemployment rate high and our debt higher...but keep fighting. Because even though the country you represent is being trampled beneath your feet, you have the moral high ground. F*ck reality...your imaginary fantasy where you're infighting causes no problems to the country you represent is superior.
 
Each state should be beholden to their citizens. texas obviously has some work to do. However every state on that list is a piker when compared to the feds fiscal irresponsibility.

I repeat...shame on us and shame on ANY of you that are so damned irresponsible that you endorse continuing to push our debt off on our grandchildren and great grandchildren. Me...I'm pissed. You should be too. But hey...if you want to continue to dump our irresponsibility on future generations...just keep voting dem and republican. Keep pretending theres a dimes worth of difference in the two major parties. Keep pretending one side is more responsible than the other for accumulating debt or that continuing this fiscal stupidity is someday somehow all going to magically make itself all better.

Okay...But I've expressed that I am concerned with the debt... In other threads, I expressed my support for the comprehensive plan that Boehner walked away from that would have cut about $2.8 trillion over the next decade and cut loopholes and simplified taxes to raise another $1.2 trillion in revenues. There was the potential for true reform there - reform created when government is split and therefore giving each side a say in how these reforms would work.

Simply writing, "Congress must pass a balanced budget" on a piece of paper isn't reform. It's words on paper.

If it didn't work in Texas, why would it work in Washington?

Unless you believe that 100% of the population will suddenly begin voting 100% Republican, why should all reforms only come from one side of the political scale?

Why would you pass a "plan" that essentially only puts us right back into this mess six months from now instead of one that creates real changes in the way our federal government works?

I would argue because this is more about political victory than it is about reform.

Democrats wanted a clean debt ceiling raise (as it has been done by both sides many times regardless of who was in the White House). Republicans said "No."

Okay, Democrats say, fine we'll attach spending cuts to the measure, but let's have some revenue increases as well so we can close this financial gap. Republicans said "No."

Okay, Democrats say, fine we'll propose just spending cuts, but let's make sure it goes through 2013 so we don't fall down this hole again in a few months. Republicans say "No."

Can you see how someone on the other side begins to think this is only scoring political points when our side has caved already on so many things?

The silliness is that one side claims to be the only ones proposing to do anything about it, when proposals from the other side have been rejected, walked away from, and ignored. And the simple fact of the matter is this: the House HAS to pass something that will make it through the Senate and get signed by the President. They do NOT get to do it 100% their way. The moment they recognize that is the moment this actually gets solved - at least to the point that it prevents the markets from continuing to fall (nearly 200 points yesterday, nearly 70 points at the moment of this writing today)...

Finally, if our credit rating as a nation goes down and it forces interest rates up, that only ADDS to the debt. A .6% increase in our interest rate would result in an additional $1 Trillion being added to the national debt over the next decade. Not to mention that if people lose retirement funds due to market hits and pay more interest on existing loans (all loans are tied to the rate our government pays), they'll spend less and the economy will slow even further, which will lower revenues coming into government, only making the debt grow even more.

That's why this is frustrating. My side has been far from perfect in this debate. I'll admit that. But when you think that you hold all the cards when you only hold about 1/3 of them, you look foolish and a bit delusional. And that delusion is starting to look dangerous to the well-being of everyone - not just the government.
 
Well said.

I would just add that a credit downgrade doesn't just impact the public debt. Private interest rates are based upon Treasury rates, so a downgrade would also raise the cost of personal and business loans. Just what we need.
 
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